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Out of Pod Experience

 
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Teenage gamer may go to prison for 8 years.

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Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#281 - 2013-07-01 20:48:12 UTC
Tumahub wrote:
Setaceous wrote:

Because parents are rubbish at being parents these days. Their children are taught that there are no consequences for failure and wrapped up in safety until they think they can get away with anything they like. It now takes extreme consequences for any teenager to rethink their actions and most will still ignore those consequences if they don't think they'll be caught or they think their parents will bail them out.

The primary problem is that we allow teenagers to act like adults with all of the protection they enjoyed as children. IMO if teenagers want to be treated like adults, then they should have to face up to the consequences of their actions as adults.

Sounds like you were beaten and/or molested as a child.

People, not just kids, are entitled whiny brats because of socialism. But that does not mean that shoving them into a giant socialist army program is going to improve that. If-anything that would hammer home the commitment people have to big government daddy taking care of their every need.

Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

I find it even more amusing that someone who is recommending compulsory military service has the gall to debate freedom of anything.


People who are abused as children tend to view anyone who was not abused as in need of abuse. They cannot relate to others on an intellectual level, hence his completely absurd and irrational arguments.

Well actually, my childhood was perfectly normal. Though I didn't get an allowance, my parents bought me the things they could afford, if they thought I deserved them and punished me (not by beating, as you put it) but by sending me to the bathroom (no point in sending a kid to their bedroom, all their toys are there)when I deserved it.

My comments are based on observations of parents and children from working in retail for 17 years and from 5 years recording family court documents. From witnessing a fight between middle/upper-class 8 year old kids (blonde, white, well dressed kids at that) dressed in (custom made) gang colours outside a subway at 11pm. From watching a school go from having 5 students turn up in cars when I was in 7th form (12 grade) to seeing the school have to have specialist car parks built in a city that would be a small town in the US (less than 20,0000 people and can be walked across in an hour) for students in cars that were either financed by their parents or bought with a loan (a great way to start life - in debt). I could come up with a lot more, but I think you get the point.
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#282 - 2013-07-01 21:42:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tumahub
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

You obviously know little to nothing about human development at a young age. I am not talking about these sick fucks who beat their kids to within an inch of their lives, and I am damned sure not talking about child molesters (in fact, I believe that pedophiles are one of the few groups who should be put to death, as there is no effective rehabilitation, and even they acknowledge this). No, what I am talking about is the fact that from birth until about the age of three, children only respond to pain as a "teacher".


Sounds like you know jack and **** and are an awful parent. I hope you have no children of your own. I have three and managed to get them all from birth to adulthood without beating them. Pain teaching nothing. Setting a good example is what makes kids good or bad at a young age.

Clearly your parents were a bad example to you. I am sorry for that, but please don't take that out on other innocent kids.

Setaceous wrote:

My comments are based on observations of parents and children from working in retail for 17 years and from 5 years recording family court documents. From witnessing a fight between middle/upper-class 8 year old kids (blonde, white, well dressed kids at that) dressed in (custom made) gang colours outside a subway at 11pm. From watching a school go from having 5 students turn up in cars when I was in 7th form (12 grade) to seeing the school have to have specialist car parks built in a city that would be a small town in the US (less than 20,0000 people and can be walked across in an hour) for students in cars that were either financed by their parents or bought with a loan (a great way to start life - in debt). I could come up with a lot more, but I think you get the point.


See above: **** parents make **** kids. Your observation does not prove that beating kids is a good means of producing any positive outcomes. In-fact kids who are beaten are much more likely to become criminals. The delinquent kids you saw were probably not spared abuse either. You think they lacked discipline. What they lacked was a parent who knew their ass from a hole in the ground.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2013-07-01 21:52:24 UTC
Tumahub wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

You obviously know little to nothing about human development at a young age. I am not talking about these sick fucks who beat their kids to within an inch of their lives, and I am damned sure not talking about child molesters (in fact, I believe that pedophiles are one of the few groups who should be put to death, as there is no effective rehabilitation, and even they acknowledge this). No, what I am talking about is the fact that from birth until about the age of three, children only respond to pain as a "teacher".


Sounds like you know jack and **** and are an awful parent. I hope you have no children of your own. I have three and managed to get them all from birth to adulthood without beating them. Pain teaching nothing. Setting a good example is what makes kids good or bad at a young age.

Clearly your parents were a bad example to you. I am sorry for that, but please don't take that out on other innocent kids.

As I already stated, I do not and will not have children. I know myself well enough to know that this would be a terrible mistake on my part. I have precisely zero patience when it comes to teaching people the same things over an over. It's all I can do to grit my teeth when my wife asks me basic question as a new player about Eve, so you can imagine how irate I would get after telling a child the same thing ten or so times.

Also, no, my asskickings as a child were pretty infrequent (not even annual iirc), and were generally reserved for extremely big screw ups (like when I got arrested as a young teenager for vandalism). Did they help? Quite a bit actually (explanation in a second). Did they hurt? Not in the long term. They have had no real impact on any decisions I have made. In fact, I am quite certain that they gave me a perspective for the other side of my rampant sadism that I possessed when I was a young child. Yeah, I was one of those sick asses who would torture things. After getting a bit of firsthand experience in the pain department in response, I developed a bit of physical empathy (the only kind I really have) and learned a lot of self-control due to that.
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#284 - 2013-07-01 21:57:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tumahub
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

As I already stated, I do not and will not have children.


Good.

Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

Also, no, my asskickings as a child were pretty infrequent (not even annual iirc), and were generally reserved for extremely big screw ups (like when I got arrested as a young teenager for vandalism). Did they help? Quite a bit actually (explanation in a second). Did they hurt? Not in the long term. They have had no real impact on any decisions I have made. In fact, I am quite certain that they gave me a perspective for the other side of my rampant sadism that I possessed when I was a young child. Yeah, I was one of those sick asses who would torture things. After getting a bit of firsthand experience in the pain department in response, I developed a bit of physical empathy (the only kind I really have) and learned a lot of self-control due to that.

So you learned not to be a sadist by getting beaten.

I'm sorry, but that is not how it works. The reason you were a sadist as a kid is because someone around you acted like a sadist. The reason you mellowed out was because you learned self-control by the example of someone else. One does not simply get a broom handle in their arse and learn Spanish. Learning empathy is no different.

One can be genetically predisposed to being more or less empathetic, but no matter how bizarre your gene-pool the learned part of socialization is MUCH more important.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2013-07-01 22:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallowmere Rorschach
Tumahub wrote:

So you learned not to be a sadist by getting beaten.

I'm sorry, but that is not how it works. The reason you were a sadist as a kid is because someone around you acted like a sadist. The reason you mellowed out was because you learned self-control by the example of someone else. One does not simply get a broom handle in their arse and learn Spanish. Learning empathy is no different.

That's the odd part. No one in my family was openly sadistic. In fact, it really freaked everyone out when they finally caught me at it. My mother was considering therapy and all of that ridiculous nonsense, but my grandmother talked her out of it, and the next time she caught me, inflicted something similar to what I was doing. I haven't touched another person or animal in an intentionally harmful way since. You can think it doesn't work that way all you like, but that's how it happened. Keep in mind that all humans respond to all things differently, and this is no exception. You thinking your approach will work on everyone is just as incorrect as the guy who thinks that all children can be beaten into shape.
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#286 - 2013-07-01 22:10:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tumahub
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

That's the odd part. No one in my family was openly sadistic. In fact, it really freaked everyone out when they finally caught me at it. My mother was considering therapy and all of that ridiculous nonsense, but my grandmother talked her out of it, and the next time she caught me, inflicted something similar to what I was doing. I haven't touched another person or animal in an intentionally harmful way since. You can think it doesn't work that way all you like, but that's how it happened. Keep in mind that all humans respond to all things differently, and this is no exception. You thinking your approach will work on everyone is just as incorrect as the guy who thinks that all children can be beaten into shape.


Sorry, but no. You literally cannot learn Spanish getting raped by a broomstick. You should have got that therapy. You would be a better person for it.

I know you're thinking "no, but some kids need to get beaten like me or they won't listen!" But no, you're saying that only because you desperately need to justify your parents, the only people in the world who were absolutely supposed to care about you, beat you instead of setting a good example. The fact you mention nobody was "openly," sadistic is pretty telling.

Don't get me wrong. It's not your fault. I can definitely empathize with you needing to make that justification, but oh man it's just sad to watch. Please do get that therapy now. It is never too late.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#287 - 2013-07-01 22:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallowmere Rorschach
Tumahub wrote:
[quote=Gallowmere Rorschach]
Sorry, but no. You literally cannot learn Spanish getting raped by a broomstick. You should have got that therapy. You would be a better person for it.

I know you're thinking "no, but some kids need to get beaten like me or they won't listen!" But no, you're saying that only because you desperately need to justify your parents, the only people in the world who were absolutely supposed to care about you, beat you instead of setting a good example. The fact you mention nobody was "openly," sadistic is pretty telling.

You are comparing taking up a second language to behavioral modification. Do you understand how ridiculous you appear? They don't even apply to the same areas of the brain, nor does it make any form of logical sense. As for justifying the actions of someone else, I am afraid not. The only person who's actions I ever justify are my own. Such is why I don't take a management position at my current job, even though I've been there for nearly a decade. Not only is the pay increase ****, but I refuse to spend half of my time trying to justify upper-management's bullshit to the people below me on the ladder.

It seems to me that you are the one who is hung up on "my way is the only way", which is natural. Your way has provided results that you have experienced and can see with your own eyes, whereas mine could only ever be you taking my word for it. Also, I know far too many people who were TRULY abused as children who turned out to be well adjusted adults, so your assumption that it screws people up without exception has a lot of holes in it.
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#288 - 2013-07-01 22:29:51 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

You are comparing taking up a second language to behavioral modification. Do you understand how ridiculous you appear? They don't even apply to the same areas of the brain, nor does it make any form of logical sense. As for justifying the actions of someone else, I am afraid not. The only person who's actions I ever justify are my own. Such is why I don't take a management position at my current job, even though I've been there for nearly a decade. Not only is the pay increase ****, but I refuse to spend half of my time trying to justify upper-management's bullshit to the people below me on the ladder.


Yes, I am because you apparently seem to think that social behaviors are not learned when in-fact they are learned in the same way that languages are. No, not in the same region of the brain, but many learned behaviors are in different parts of the brain so that argument holds no water.

Given that you literally just justified the actions of your "not openly sadistic," family I don't know how to respond further. Your childhood was their fault and yes, it impacts your thinking and decision making to this day. You can become aware of it and try to work through that, or you can pretend that it doesn't matter. I don't know how the not-taking-a-promotion fits into the argument, but It sounds suspiciously like another cry for help.

Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:

It seems to me that you are the one who is hung up on "my way is the only way", which is natural. Your way has provided results that you have experienced and can see with your own eyes, whereas mine could only ever be you taking my word for it. Also, I know far too many people who were TRULY abused as children who turned out to be well adjusted adults, so your assumption that it screws people up without exception has a lot of holes in it.


Sure I'm hung up. Millions of parents abuse their kids and it's sickening to contemplate. I'm not taking your word for it because you admitted that you were abused as a child so your opinion on the matter is obviously suspect. Being "truly abused," has an incredibly broad definition so before you go on a tireless crusade for the child-beaters just seriously consider getting some therapy.

Again, it is not your fault. You didn't get to choose your parents or the situations that you were put in as a child. I know you think the world is screwed up, and it is, but you don't have to be an advocate for that screwed up world. Go see a therapist.
Gallowmere Rorschach
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2013-07-01 22:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Gallowmere Rorschach
It's quite clear that this has devolved into some kind of really creepy "let's all be friends and touch soft parts" party, so I'll bow out at this point. I'll just close with the following: by "truly abused", I mean kids who were on the verge of hospital visits due to their parents' hands (and logs, and stools, and various other stout objects), not kids like myself who may have gotten mild handslaps and the occasional swat across the ass with an open palm (and with clothes on). Yeah, that's all it was, except for that one incident, which was actually nothing more than my grandmother biting my hand just hard enough to leave a light bruise (yes, that's what I did to people, and needed to have done to me to get the point across that it hurt). I love how you somehow manage to assume that any form of physical contact, no matter how mild, that isn't some kind of creepy loving caress is abuse. I kept my details purposefully vague to see just how weird you would get with this. Now I know.
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#290 - 2013-07-01 23:25:33 UTC
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
I I kept my details specifically vague to see just how weird you would get with this. Now I know.


So emotionally ******** that you have to back-pedal into "I was just trolling you wollololol." Seriously?

I don't know what actually happens to you as a kid, but whatever it was you do need a shrink. I know you're going to keep the internet tough-guy facade up on the forums, but take that **** seriously. This is your life kid, not a video game.
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#291 - 2013-07-01 23:57:36 UTC
Tumahub wrote:
Gallowmere Rorschach wrote:
I I kept my details specifically vague to see just how weird you would get with this. Now I know.


So emotionally ******** that you have to back-pedal into "I was just trolling you wollololol." Seriously?

I don't know what actually happens to you as a kid, but whatever it was you do need a shrink. I know you're going to keep the internet tough-guy facade up on the forums, but take that **** seriously. This is your life kid, not a video game.

The only person with actual issues here seems to be you. Projecting problems onto others that don't actually have those issues and making a fanatical crusade out of it. Moderation is key to being taken seriously, no one likes a frothing at the mouth fanatic.
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#292 - 2013-07-02 00:02:22 UTC
Didn't realize quoting someone verbatim about their experience is projecting. Thanks Doc.
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#293 - 2013-07-02 00:05:43 UTC
Tumahub wrote:
Didn't realize quoting someone verbatim about their experience is projecting. Thanks Doc.


Out of context verbatim. Typical internet Crusader, jumping on the things you feel support your arguments and ignoring everything else.

Just out of interest: how old are you and how many children do you have?
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#294 - 2013-07-02 00:11:22 UTC
Setaceous wrote:
Tumahub wrote:
Didn't realize quoting someone verbatim about their experience is projecting. Thanks Doc.


Out of context verbatim. Typical internet Crusader, jumping on the things you feel support your arguments and ignoring everything else.

Just out of interest: how old are you and how many children do you have?


It wasn't out of context at all. It's not so much that I jumped on what supported my argument as, literally everything he posted was in support of my argument. Because my argument is logical and "it's ok to beat kids up to some undefined point," is absolutely illogical.

My three kids are all in their twenties now and working on successful careers. I've had a lifetime of experience at this. What expertise are you claiming to bring to the table?
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#295 - 2013-07-02 00:15:56 UTC
Sweet, someone else who watches AlphaOmegaSin. Anrgy Joe too? Boogie2988?

Its pretty ******** to presecute a kid, especialy when after taking his initial post he says "lol jk". Dark humor, but seriously....

[center]Haruhiists - Overloading Out of Pod discussions since 2007. /人◕‿‿◕人\ Unban Saede![/center]
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#296 - 2013-07-02 00:19:38 UTC
Kirjava wrote:

Its pretty ******** to presecute a kid, especialy when after taking his initial post he says "lol jk". Dark humor, but seriously....


~terrorism~
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#297 - 2013-07-02 00:28:21 UTC
Tumahub wrote:
Setaceous wrote:
Tumahub wrote:
Didn't realize quoting someone verbatim about their experience is projecting. Thanks Doc.


Out of context verbatim. Typical internet Crusader, jumping on the things you feel support your arguments and ignoring everything else.

Just out of interest: how old are you and how many children do you have?


It wasn't out of context at all. It's not so much that I jumped on what supported my argument as, literally everything he posted was in support of my argument. Because my argument is logical and "it's ok to beat kids up to some undefined point," is absolutely illogical.

My three kids are all in their twenties now and working on successful careers. I've had a lifetime of experience at this. What expertise are you claiming to bring to the table?

None at all. I'm terrible at looking after myself so, logically I would be terrible at looking after kids. Though I do have a lifetime of dealing with other peoples kids, which also led me to have a vasectomy 20 years ago (just in case).

Here's another question for you. Did your own parents smack you? Same question for the previous generations of your family. How did you turn out (you come across as relatively stable)? How did they turn out?

I had the open hand slap across the backside like many of my generation and so did my brother. We're both fine. He's the opposite of me in fact - married with two kids, neither of which get smacked, but do get "time-outs" fairly often. We're in stable jobs with high incomes and have no social issues. From that point of view, and based on the multitudes of other perfectly normal people my age, there is nothing wrong with the way we were raised. The difference between us getting a smack and actual abused kids is the same as the difference between having a social drink once or twice a month and being an alcoholic or binge drinker.
Tumahub
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#298 - 2013-07-02 00:53:54 UTC
Setaceous wrote:

None at all. I'm terrible at looking after myself so, logically I would be terrible at looking after kids. Though I do have a lifetime of dealing with other peoples kids, which also led me to have a vasectomy 20 years ago (just in case).


Probably for the best.

Setaceous wrote:

Here's another question for you. Did your own parents smack you? Same question for the previous generations of your family. How did you turn out (you come across as relatively stable)? How did they turn out?


I come from one of those wild extremist families that hasn't hit their kids for more than a couple generations. We're all professionals with well-balanced lives and none of us had those purportedly common sadistic youth phases.

Setaceous wrote:

I had the open hand slap across the backside like many of my generation and so did my brother. We're both fine. He's the opposite of me in fact - married with two kids, neither of which get smacked, but do get "time-outs" fairly often. We're in stable jobs with high incomes and have no social issues. From that point of view, and based on the multitudes of other perfectly normal people my age, there is nothing wrong with the way we were raised. The difference between us getting a smack and actual abused kids is the same as the difference between having a social drink once or twice a month and being an alcoholic or binge drinker.


I don't doubt some people got out of a childhood with minimal abuse and it hardly affected them, but given the pandemic of child abuse these days I think the pre-emptive excuse for "mild," smacking is just too subjective to support. As I said earlier, it can't be argued that physical discipline teaches anything except that physical violence solves problems, which is a gateway to all of that negative behavior it was meant to correct in the first place.

For the record, I am not a time-out person either. Not because I think it's bad, but because it is just not effective. The kid who is acting out has already seen some poor example by an adult to emulate. Kids at a young age are just copying and adapting everything they see around them. There would be a lot more perfectly normal people (and considering the number of people, statistically, who are on psychotropic drugs these days... that's a lot) if parents actually led by example instead of pretending their poor choices were rubbing off on their kids.

If we're going to use the drinking analogy I would say hitting a kid is like switching from whiskey to vodka in order to cure one's self of alcoholism. It obviously won't work because it only re-enforces the behavior. The solution is to understand there is another cause of the problem and fix it so one is not compelled to be drunk 24/7. Change that trigger behavior and the person can be just a social drinker.
Reiisha
#299 - 2013-07-02 06:16:05 UTC
Cam Mikaels wrote:
The kid was stupid. That's just not something you say in public, sarcasm or no. While I agree jail-time might be a bit much, he definitely should receive some kind of punishment.


1 month house arrest maybe. This is purely a parenting issue, not a state issue.

'Murica, taking things 15 steps too far since 1945.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...
Setaceous
Nexus Prima
#300 - 2013-07-02 07:17:13 UTC
Reiisha wrote:
Cam Mikaels wrote:
The kid was stupid. That's just not something you say in public, sarcasm or no. While I agree jail-time might be a bit much, he definitely should receive some kind of punishment.


1 month house arrest maybe. This is purely a parenting issue, not a state issue.

'Murica, taking things 15 steps too far since 1945.

Well, the US justice system always goes for the worst possible sentence that a person could get and hopes they'll plead out to get a "lesser" sentence. Most judges would give them the minimum sentence anyway. The media doesn't help when it over-hypes the story or just get it wrong in an attempt to be "first". Story > Truth is how all media works these days.