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Making a gank cost something

First post
Author
TharOkha
0asis Group
#41 - 2013-07-01 08:42:56 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:

Anyone claiming the cost for ganking isn't high enough in EvE are vets or a member of some blob fleet, that seems from their explanations, pays even for their game time with free PLEX to play without even a penny invested.


Ganking is cheap only if the victim / target is stupid enough to haul billions in their t1 hauler or bunch of PLEXes in t1 frigate. And yes i play by PLEX because there is a sh!tload of stupid players which allows me to.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-07-01 08:48:35 UTC
TharOkha wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:

Anyone claiming the cost for ganking isn't high enough in EvE are vets or a member of some blob fleet, that seems from their explanations, pays even for their game time with free PLEX to play without even a penny invested.


Ganking is cheap only if the victim / target is stupid enough to haul billions in their t1 hauler or bunch of PLEXes in t1 frigate. And yes i play by PLEX because there is a sh!tload of stupid players which allows me to.


Well, I don't!

I saw what the Goons are gatecamping for, and it makes me wonder w-h-y would anyone just float in space with billions of ISK cargo without armed guards. Shocked

Shipping 6 T3 ships is just going to be ganked. That's common sense!

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#43 - 2013-07-01 08:53:36 UTC
Q 5 wrote:
With the introduction of these "tags" ganking means nothing to pirates and mega corps like Goonswarm and other 0.0 corps, put some kind of consequence in ganking (and no losing their ship means nothing), they just farm tags all day and get sec stat back fast, pfft no consequence there.


Turning in tags cost ISK too, and that is the consequence of quickly bumping sec stat back up. That makes ganking in this way even more unprofitable. Wanna fight easy sec stat access? Lay a claim in lowsec and kick out the ratters that offer these tags for low ISK at hisec trade hubs. Farm them yourself and sell them for a high price at security stations: the ISK of those mitigating consequences will end up in your wallet, further funding your ability to prevent anyone else ratting in the lowsec systems of your choice.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#44 - 2013-07-01 09:01:01 UTC
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
Q 5 wrote:
With the introduction of these "tags" ganking means nothing to pirates and mega corps like Goonswarm and other 0.0 corps, put some kind of consequence in ganking (and no losing their ship means nothing), they just farm tags all day and get sec stat back fast, pfft no consequence there.


Turning in tags cost ISK too, and that is the consequence of quickly bumping sec stat back up. That makes ganking in this way even more unprofitable. Wanna fight easy sec stat access? Lay a claim in lowsec and kick out the ratters that offer these tags for low ISK at hisec trade hubs. Farm them yourself and sell them for a high price at security stations: the ISK of those mitigating consequences will end up in your wallet, further funding your ability to prevent anyone else ratting in the lowsec systems of your choice.


You know something? That made me think of a prediction I heard about a while before Odyssey hit.

People were figuring that there would quickly be "lowsec cartels" moving to take control of the sec status tag industry. But, to my knowledge (poor, since I am at work), this has not happened yet, correct?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#45 - 2013-07-01 09:02:33 UTC
It does cost something, it costs a Ship, Fittings, Security rating loss, time from criminal activity, if one keeps ganking they can no longer have peacful travel in high sec without being attackable by all.
Six Six Six
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-07-01 10:15:16 UTC
Miilla wrote:
It does cost something, it costs a Ship, Fittings, Security rating loss, time from criminal activity, if one keeps ganking they can no longer have peacful travel in high sec without being attackable by all.




Then buy some tags and everything is ok once again. Some people have loads of isk the cost of a few tags won't bother them.


Preferred the older system at least with that choosing to be a pirate actually mattered more.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2013-07-01 10:17:19 UTC
Six Six Six wrote:
Miilla wrote:
It does cost something, it costs a Ship, Fittings, Security rating loss, time from criminal activity, if one keeps ganking they can no longer have peacful travel in high sec without being attackable by all.




Then buy some tags and everything is ok once again. Some people have loads of isk the cost of a few tags won't bother them.


Preferred the older system at least with that choosing to be a pirate actually mattered more.


We don't bother with either system and just stay at -10. Saves a lot of time and isk.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#48 - 2013-07-01 10:27:12 UTC
To anyone who says ganking costs something.

Get this into your think heads you nerds

If the loot dropped from the ganked ship is greater than the cost of the lost ships, security tags bought, ammo and equipment costs and other small costs then the gank did not cost anything. It was profitable there for the gank did not cost anything.

The anoying part of sec status grind what was before the insanely stupid update was the last punishment that ganking had. Now it is just a normal daily thing you can do in high security.

And yet again in my opinion ganking is something that can happen but the way it is happening these days is just plain wrong. It's wrong towards the victims even if they are foolish enough to carry expensive cargo. They do not have the protection they should have. CONCORD is supose to level the playing fiend in empire for players that rely on them but at they just remove the hostile targets from space and thats it.

I am willing to even go that far that after certain level of security status has been reached and a pilot has beel labeled to be an outlaw he should be banned from high sec for the rest of his life.

High sec is not a place where pvp should be promoted. Acasionaly ganking is something that can and will happen but what is happening these days is just too much.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#49 - 2013-07-01 10:30:58 UTC
Quote:
If the loot dropped from the ganked ship is greater than the cost of the lost ships, security tags bought, ammo and equipment costs and other small costs then the gank did not cost anything. It was profitable there for the gank did not cost anything.


This is called choosing your target correctly. There is every reason for this to be rewarded.

Quote:
CONCORD is supose to level the playing fiend in empire for players that rely on them


If players rely on CONCORD, they are fools. And, I might add, they deserve what they get. There is no guarantee of safety.

Quote:
High sec is not a place where pvp should be promoted.


You have the wrong assumptions, it leads you to the wrong conclusion. As mentioned above, you are not in any way entitled to safety.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#50 - 2013-07-01 10:34:24 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
To anyone who says ganking costs something.

Get this into your think heads you nerds

If the loot dropped from the ganked ship is greater than the cost of the lost ships, security tags bought, ammo and equipment costs and other small costs then the gank did not cost anything. It was profitable there for the gank did not cost anything.



Great so because I earned more than my gank ship cost my ship and mods cost gets refunded (or replaced), I don't get sec loss, I don't get a kill right against me and I don't get hunted by concord for 15 min after the gank.


Oh wai...
Kult Altol
The Safe Space
#51 - 2013-07-01 10:43:50 UTC
Quote:
You have the wrong assumptions, it leads you to the wrong conclusion. As mentioned above, you are not in any way entitled to safety.


Really show me where it says you are not entitled to safety in hi sec?

[u]Can't wait untill when Eve online is Freemium.[/u] WiS only 10$, SP booster for one month 15$, DPS Boost 2$, EHP Boost 2$ Real money trading hub! Cosmeitic ship skins 15$ --> If you don't [u]pay **[/u]for a product, you ARE the [u]**product[/u].

Kijo Rikki
Perkone
Caldari State
#52 - 2013-07-01 11:33:21 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
To anyone who says ganking costs something.

Get this into your think heads you nerds

If the loot dropped from the ganked ship is greater than the cost of the lost ships, security tags bought, ammo and equipment costs and other small costs then the gank did not cost anything. It was profitable there for the gank did not cost anything.

The anoying part of sec status grind what was before the insanely stupid update was the last punishment that ganking had. Now it is just a normal daily thing you can do in high security.


People on the forums have been hammering the point home for years that hi-sec does not mean you are 100% safe, and if you ever wondered where CCP sided on this issue, you now have a clear, definitive answer.

There is risk versus reward involved in high sec ganking, the gankers obviously understand it and the victim did not. Much like piracy, suicide ganking is a profession, and researching your targets to be sure it will be profitable is part of the job. Your job is to outsmart them, outplay them, or make yourself less of a target.


Quote:

And yet again in my opinion ganking is something that can happen but the way it is happening these days is just plain wrong. It's wrong towards the victims even if they are foolish enough to carry expensive cargo. They do not have the protection they should have. CONCORD is supose to level the playing fiend in empire for players that rely on them but at they just remove the hostile targets from space and thats it.

I am willing to even go that far that after certain level of security status has been reached and a pilot has beel labeled to be an outlaw he should be banned from high sec for the rest of his life.

High sec is not a place where pvp should be promoted. Acasionaly ganking is something that can and will happen but what is happening these days is just too much.



You are not safe anywhere in the EvE Universe. Again, CCP made that point specifically clear, and it is about time that high security care bears learn to accept and embrace that fact. It's not even a new stance, as it was previously considered an exploit to preload belts or other pve locations with CONCORD spawns to protect yourself.

About thinking you're entitled to 100% safety in hi-sec: oddly enough, you're not safe anywhere in the real world either. CONCORD has a better record than real police, they can be on the scene of a crime in progress in less than 7 seconds and will take no longer than 20 in the lowest high security zone. That's pretty amazing, and yet you are not happy with that.

Quote:

Really show me where it says you are not entitled to safety in hi sec?


Show me where it says you are, or more importantly, show me where it says you are guaranteed safety.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#53 - 2013-07-01 11:53:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Azrael Dinn wrote:
It needs to be more expensive to gank because it should not be an activity in high security space that pirates, major alliances and other nerds can turn into a profitable gameplay.
Of course it should. Especially when the victims wilfully decide to both increase the profitability and decrease the costs.

Their poor decision-making is not a game balance problem, and why on earth should this particular activity not be allowed to turn a profit as opposed to all the other legitimate gameplay choices for highsec?

Quote:
To anyone who says ganking costs something.

Get this into your think heads you nerds

If the loot dropped from the ganked ship is greater than the cost of the lost ships, security tags bought, ammo and equipment costs and other small costs then the gank did not cost anything. It was profitable there for the
…gank still had the same cost it always had. The costs don't go away just because the income exceeds it. Unfortunately for you being abusive does not change how economy works.

Quote:
I am willing to even go that far that after certain level of security status has been reached and a pilot has beel labeled to be an outlaw he should be banned from high sec for the rest of his life.

High sec is not a place where pvp should be promoted.
Why should he be mechanically barred from entering any particular part of space? If you want him to say out, make him! It's your job to do so. Oh, and highsec is a PvP arena just like the rest of the game — there's no reason why it shouldn't be promoted there (and even more so than it is now).

Kult Altol wrote:
Really show me where it says you are not entitled to safety in hi sec?
It says so right in the tutorial. It says so in the wiki article. It says so implicitly in the description of crimewatch. It is the gist of the standard saying of “CONCORD provides consequences, not protection”. It is encoded in the very mechanics of the game.

More importantly: it is never ever stated anywhere that you are entitled to anything beyond what you can eke out for yourself — security least of all. If you've ever seen it stated anywhere, it would be interesting to know where that is, since it's a pretty blatant lie and you should probably stop trusting that information source…
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#54 - 2013-07-01 12:02:05 UTC
Kijo Rikki wrote:

About thinking you're entitled to 100% safety in hi-sec: oddly enough, you're not safe anywhere in the real world either. CONCORD has a better record than real police, they can be on the scene of a crime in progress in less than 7 seconds and will take no longer than 20 in the lowest high security zone. That's pretty amazing, and yet you are not happy with that.


and here is the problem. In real life the police also stop you from getting any benefits from your crime in EvE they don't. And in real life you go to jail but in EvE you buy security tags and go do more crimes. You still following me?

And yes I know this is not real life it's a computer game but the way the game mechanics have been made I might never have a way to get even with my foes even if I wanted to. And this is also why the current mechanics suck and concord should be more effective and criminals should be in low sec.

And yes I know that EvE is not supose to have safe places in it and I agree, but the punishment for doing "criminal" acts in high sec should be much much severe than they are cause at this moment there realy are no punishments for lets say "organised crime" Lol

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#55 - 2013-07-01 12:07:23 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Kijo Rikki wrote:

About thinking you're entitled to 100% safety in hi-sec: oddly enough, you're not safe anywhere in the real world either. CONCORD has a better record than real police, they can be on the scene of a crime in progress in less than 7 seconds and will take no longer than 20 in the lowest high security zone. That's pretty amazing, and yet you are not happy with that.


and here is the problem. In real life the police also stop you from getting any benefits from your crime in EvE they don't. And in real life you go to jail but in EvE you buy security tags and go do more crimes. You still following me?

And yes I know this is not real life it's a computer game but the way the game mechanics have been made I might never have a way to get even with my foes even if I wanted to. And this is also why the current mechanics suck and concord should be more effective and criminals should be in low sec.

And yes I know that EvE is not supose to have safe places in it and I agree, but the punishment for doing "criminal" acts in high sec should be much much severe than they are cause at this moment there realy are no punishments for lets say "organised crime" Lol


In real life, you are lucky if the police are even remotely a deterrent. If they show up in time to do anything, it's more like put some chalk lines on the sidewalk, and start taking witness statements.

CONCORD is a 100% reliable retaliation, the other person always will get blown up.

How would you not have a way to get even with the ganker? You have kill rights after all.

CONCORD needs to be, if anything, less effective than they currently are. Right now, highsec is too blasted safe, so people have started getting this sense of security they shouldn't have. So when someone tips that hat off their shoulder, they come on the forums and cry about it. We need to take a step back, not forward, in highsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#56 - 2013-07-01 12:26:27 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
and here is the problem. In real life
Yes. Thinking that “in real life” is in any way indicative of how things will (or should) work in EVE is indeed a problem.

For instance, in EVE, you cannot get away from the police — you are always caught and punished. In EVE, you can always and automatically get the police to look the other way so you can punish people at will. In EVE, the police is divided into a punishment division and a harassment division — if you want more, the intended game design is for you to go out and actively pursue your grievances with the perps in question.

If criminals are getting away too easily, it's because you have decided that they should and not pursued the matter any further. If you want them to have a harsher time, make it so.
Kijo Rikki
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-07-01 12:47:49 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:

and here is the problem. In real life the police also stop you from getting any benefits from your crime in EvE they don't.


Are you sure about that?

Quote:
And in real life you go to jail but in EvE you buy security tags and go do more crimes. You still following me?


Yup. You know its a whole new world out there, people aren't actually murdered, their clones are just destroyed. The state deals with criminals who deal with criminals because they don't have the balls to go after them themselves....think of it like a plea deal....hey.....wait a minute....

Quote:

And yes I know this is not real life it's a computer game but the way the game mechanics have been made I might never have a way to get even with my foes even if I wanted to.


Kill rights, use it to exact revenge or sell it to someone who will gladly do it for you.

Quote:
And this is also why the current mechanics suck and concord should be more effective and criminals should be in low sec.

And yes I know that EvE is not supose to have safe places in it and I agree, but the punishment for doing "criminal" acts in high sec should be much much severe than they are cause at this moment there realy are no punishments for lets say "organised crime" Lol


7-20 seconds....7 -20 seconds. Can you even connect to a 911 operator in 7-20 seconds?

No, criminals should not be in lowsec. If high sec grants 0 risk and even a smidgen of reward the game becomes a failure. I'm sorry that you don't want to but you are going to have to play the risk versus reward game like everybody else.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam. 

Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#58 - 2013-07-01 12:51:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
and here is the problem. In real life
Yes. Thinking that “in real life” is in any way indicative of how things will (or should) work in EVE is indeed a problem.

For instance, in EVE, you cannot get away from the police — you are always caught and punished. In EVE, you can always and automatically get the police to look the other way so you can punish people at will. In EVE, the police is divided into a punishment division and a harassment division — if you want more, the intended game design is for you to go out and actively pursue your grievances with the perps in question.

If criminals are getting away too easily, it's because you have decided that they should and not pursued the matter any further. If you want them to have a harsher time, make it so.


As you keep on telling me that this all in balance and you are punished for your deeds and I will forget the "real life" way of thinking for a few seconds.

You are the nasty pvp pilot and I am the silly badger pilot and I have some exotic dancers in my cargo that are worth alot of isks.

You see me flying in space and decide to rob me of mt spacely pleasures. I die and you die shortly after that. Then your alt comes and picks up my pleasure toys and takes them away. Keep in mind that they where worth few billions.

Now I died I have a kill right and I'm mad ass hell and I see you few days after and decide to attack you with a shiny ship and I manage to kill you while you are in a reaper or a shuttle. After that I loose the kill right.

Now the sum

I have lost a ship and billions.
you have lost two ships and gained billions and pvp that you want.'

How this is balanced for me?
How do I get my isks back from you?
Can I harrass you so much that you will give them back to me? no CCP wont allow it.

What ever happend in high sec ganking unless its pure vengeance the ganker wins. This is what I hate. This is something the game should not allow. I have no, absolutely no way to get my isks back from you and that it.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#59 - 2013-07-01 12:56:56 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
You are the nasty pvp pilot and I am the silly badger pilot and I have some exotic dancers in my cargo that are worth alot of isks.

You see me flying in space and decide to rob me of mt spacely pleasures. I die and you die shortly after that. Then your alt comes and picks up my pleasure toys and takes them away. Keep in mind that they where worth few billions.

Now I died I have a kill right and I'm mad ass hell and I see you few days after and decide to attack you with a shiny ship and I manage to kill you while you are in a reaper or a shuttle. After that I loose the kill right.
Your decision to not actually punish me in any meaningful way is not a game design issue or a balance problem.

Quote:
How do I get my isks back from you?
Rob me when I fly about carrying something expensive.

Quote:
Can I harrass you so much that you will give them back to me?
Very often, yes. You have a legitimate point of conflict that allows you to do quite a lot of nasty things before the GMs even bat an eyelid.

Quote:
What ever happend in high sec ganking unless its pure vengeance the ganker wins. This is what I hate. This is something the game should not allow.
The game allows (almost) whatever you decide. If you decide to make it a puny retribution and then give up, then that's a problem with your decision, not with the game.
Kijo Rikki
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-07-01 12:57:00 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:

You see me flying in space and decide to rob me of mt spacely pleasures. I die and you die shortly after that. Then your alt comes and picks up my pleasure toys and takes them away. Keep in mind that they where worth few billions.

Now I died I have a kill right and I'm mad ass hell and I see you few days after and decide to attack you with a shiny ship and I manage to kill you while you are in a reaper or a shuttle. After that I loose the kill right.


And why did you chose to go after him in such a cheap ship? You're not really understanding the concept of risk vs reward OR revenge.

Oh, another thing, this expansion is actualyl great for you, it used to be they used throwaway alts to get around the sec status problem, so you always had new faces. At least this way you should know who your enemies are and they should be marked in contacts and show up as big shiny oh sh-- icons of doom in space and in local. Awareness is key to survival, as are other things that would stop you from having a kill right to waste on a rookie ship or a shuttle.

You make a valid point, good Sir or Madam.