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At what point is something an Exploit and not game Mechanics ? Bumped for 60 Minutes

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#781 - 2013-07-06 07:12:23 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
[rabble rabble rabble]


I'm mildly curious why you're all on the same page throwing "intent" around like it means something. You can't reference a single instance of CCP mentioning anything even remotely similar, so.... Do Goons have some sort of internal memo on the topic? Is it just a convenient loophole to cling to? Too many lawyer dramas maybe? Perhaps you just like my rambling on the topic?

Inquiring minds want to know.


If you look through the dev blogs you will find the crimewatch blog that says CCP do not want logging off to be a valid tactic when attacked and if you look back to around spring last year you will find a blog made by the head GM stating that bumping is seen as another form of warp disruption in their eyes. So we know CCPs oppinion on this matter.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#782 - 2013-07-06 08:15:36 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
I think you are starting to supplement data to reinforce facts that do not exist.
How so?

Murk Paradox wrote:
Point 1- Yes, freighters ARE special. The do not have all the functionality othyer ships do in regards to having an aggression timer applied to them. Except maybe a shuttle. Is that what you're trying to say? Freighters are shuttles? Didn't think so. AVOIDING the need for the mechanic applied is moot. We are not talking about preventive maintenance, but application.

Point 2- Same as point 1. Freighters are most definitely not like any other ship in the game, except shuttles (yes shuttles can have an aggression timer too, but that is an entirely different topic isn't it?). You want to say a freighter is a capital, that's why they can't logoff, or why the need for the timer existed? Fine. Keep them out of highsec! Make them the same. Or give them the ability to aggress "like every other ship in game" (except shuttles bleh).

Point3- I do not agree with Tippia to say it takes DAYS to become "excessive". You yourself said that is not possible (downtime) and that GM/DEVs have final say. I do not understand how you can think it's impossible to agree with you and not Tippia at the same time. Maybe it isn't me who should try to keep up with other people posting. Take your own advice maybe.
1. Freighters having a specific function in the game, does not and should not make them exempt from this aggression timer. It was put in place to stop people logging off to save their skin and includes all ships. Hence why this doesn't make the freighter special in this regard.

2. See 1.

3. I agree with Tippia and just worded what he said differently. Maybe English isn't your first language? But after reading other posts, there is most certainly a lack of comprehension on your part. No disrespect intended.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#783 - 2013-07-06 09:34:21 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
[rabble rabble rabble]


I'm mildly curious why you're all on the same page throwing "intent" around like it means something. You can't reference a single instance of CCP mentioning anything even remotely similar, so.... Do Goons have some sort of internal memo on the topic? Is it just a convenient loophole to cling to? Too many lawyer dramas maybe? Perhaps you just like my rambling on the topic?

Inquiring minds want to know.

The question from myself (and gunslinger) logically demonstrates that the only method you can use to classify whether something is harassment or not, when no actions that lead to the harassment are 'illegal', is to show why the person was doing it.

To what end the person was being bumped is what makes it either allowable, or against the rules. No, I can't quote CCP saying this because it's the logical result of someone saying they will judge someone's actions on a case-by-case basis. There's no more evidence that CCP judge intent than there is they judge by the colour of your underwear; which is why asking to prove a negative is just silly. There's a logical foundation that they do one and not another.
More to the point, anyone who has ever sent in a petition on player behaviour (or been the result of one) will know CCP judge punishment on the basis of why you were doing it - alas, I cannot provide evidence for this as it is against the forum rules. I can only suggest if you truly want an answer to this and aren't just using it to try to blow smoke on discussions in this thread that you privately ask CCP.

Or, go ahead and quote two words and say "it's not" without providing any form of logical argument or evidence for your assertions.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#784 - 2013-07-06 11:05:04 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
And since HS currently has no special combat timers, why do you feel HS should suddenly operate under different combat rules than everywhere else?


Because it does already, simply with having CONCORD around. Then add that CCP has special circumstances in the area as a measure to not scare off 9 out of 10 new players -- and will tune it harder if you mess with it's ISK factory (as the typical mouthbreather doesn't think about the consequences).


Oh look someone invoking the "think of the new players" horsecrap.

Pro tip mate: New players aren't flying around in billion isk freighters that take ages to train for. Hope this helps.
PeHD0M
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#785 - 2013-07-06 11:19:30 UTC
This is definitely a flawed game mechanic and exploit. Bumping is a form of disabling the ship, so that kind of activity should activate the GCC. Simple.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#786 - 2013-07-06 11:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
S Byerley wrote:
Because CCP thinks War decs are the correct way to pvp someone in high sec. It would be transparent at the user level anyway.


Where on Earth are you getting this garbage? Where have CCP said that the only "correct" way to PVP in highsec is through wars? I've never seen that anywhere. Do you believe that suicide ganks, baiting, etc are all invalid forms of PVP? If they're not the "correct" way to PVP why have CCP explicitly implemented those abilities?

I have never met someone so totally oblivious and misinformed. Do you even play this game?
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#787 - 2013-07-06 11:23:14 UTC
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
And since HS currently has no special combat timers, why do you feel HS should suddenly operate under different combat rules than everywhere else?


Because it does already, simply with having CONCORD around. Then add that CCP has special circumstances in the area as a measure to not scare off 9 out of 10 new players -- and will tune it harder if you mess with it's ISK factory (as the typical mouthbreather doesn't think about the consequences).


Oh look someone invoking the "think of the new players" horsecrap.

Pro tip mate: New players aren't flying around in billion isk freighters that take ages to train for. Hope this helps.


Pro tip mate: Mouthbreathers are dull to begin with, regardless of game they play. It's why they're but cannon fodder anyway. Idea

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#788 - 2013-07-06 11:29:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Destination SkillQueue
PeHD0M wrote:
This is definitely a flawed game mechanic and exploit. Bumping is a form of disabling the ship, so that kind of activity should activate the GCC. Simple.


Let's assume CCP does what you want. So what counts as bumping, as in how do you determine which ship should be destroyed and which gets to pick up free loot from the wreck of the "offender"?
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#789 - 2013-07-06 11:38:44 UTC
PeHD0M wrote:
This is definitely a flawed game mechanic and exploit. Bumping is a form of disabling the ship, so that kind of activity should activate the GCC. Simple.


Do people not think of the consequences of the crap they spew?

What happens when you're in a fleet fight in highsec, with your fleet mates and enemies all mashed together in a big ball slugging it out at point blank range? Oh look, they all get concorded and sec hits.

What happens when you have people PVEing and orbiting / approaching a single ship to keep formation? Oh look, they all get concorded and sec hits.

What happens when anyone ever undocks from a station? Oh look, they all get concorded and sec hits.

and so on
Templar Knightsbane
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#790 - 2013-07-06 11:40:04 UTC
To be brutal, and with the frieghter pilot knowing that he was going to be ganked, did he even once shout in local that people were going to be getting criminal timers and for everyone to ship into a frig for some free killmails???

I mean even without friends, people like free killmails, this one line in local could have saved the freighter, all i see here is a total lack of pro-activeness on the part of the freighter pilot to avoid this over the course of an hour.

He could have contacted a HS Merc corp and given them a couple of hundred mil for a logi and some frigates to turn up.

He could have gotten alliance mates to come help.

Alts are very good for this sort of thing.

All arguments i see here are null and void as the intention wasn't to grief the freighter it was to kill it and loot it which is 100% part of life in EVE.

This thread needs locking imo its pointless, going nowhere and there has been no violation of any rule set out by CCP that i am aware of.

Also, arguing that CCP think there is a right and wrong way to PVP anywhere is pretty hilarious, thats what the mechanics of the game are used for, hence the flagging system, concord etc etc etc.

Still all i see is 15 pilots vs 1 Pilot the odds of the one pilots survival are beyond low in any ship at any time in EVE given that the 15 pilots used tactics and planning to get a job done!!!
PeHD0M
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#791 - 2013-07-06 11:44:01 UTC
Can you disable the neutral ship with warp scram in hi-sec? - Yes
Consequences? - GCC, Concordokken, loss of the security status

Can you disable the neutral ship by bumping it for hours in hi-sec? - Yes
Consequences? - None. Clearly an exploit.

I don't know how to fix it. Even more, i'm not sure that it is even possible to fix it without changing the warp mechanics. But clearly something should be done by CCP, otherwise sooner or later that trick will ruin the game for a lot of players in hi-sec.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#792 - 2013-07-06 11:45:03 UTC
PeHD0M wrote:
This is definitely a flawed game mechanic and exploit.
Except it's definitely not.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#793 - 2013-07-06 11:52:30 UTC
PeHD0M wrote:
Can you disable the neutral ship with warp scram in hi-sec? - Yes
Consequences? - GCC, Concordokken, loss of the security status

Can you disable the neutral ship by bumping it for hours in hi-sec? - Yes
Consequences? - None. Clearly an exploit.

I don't know how to fix it. Even more, i'm not sure that it is even possible to fix it without changing the warp mechanics. But clearly something should be done by CCP, otherwise sooner or later that trick will ruin the game for a lot of players in hi-sec.


In EvE it's changing the physics, which would be a major overall.

Can't have realistic physics in a game that doesn't even fight realistically. Conditions have to be set. One such condition is how the physics works, which would fix the other problems in the game as well (like getting trapped on top and in structures in space. If there weren't any waypoints in the direction that was out, would have to petition a GM to move my ship as it would remain stuck. It got there to begin with due to those very physics that allow bouncing and bumping of ships).

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
PeHD0M
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#794 - 2013-07-06 11:58:57 UTC
Mag's wrote:
PeHD0M wrote:
This is definitely a flawed game mechanic and exploit.
Except it's definitely not.


Nope. You are wrong.

Bumping miners is one case. Bumping for hours is another. The player tried to move to another location, but he is UNABLE do it because of said actions. Therefore:

Quote:
However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#795 - 2013-07-06 12:28:03 UTC
PeHD0M wrote:
Can you disable the neutral ship with warp scram in hi-sec? - Yes
Consequences? - GCC, Concordokken, loss of the security status

Can you disable the neutral ship by bumping it for hours in hi-sec? - Yes
Consequences? - None. Clearly an exploit.

I don't know how to fix it. Even more, i'm not sure that it is even possible to fix it without changing the warp mechanics. But clearly something should be done by CCP, otherwise sooner or later that trick will ruin the game for a lot of players in hi-sec.


We have been doing this for a decade...
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#796 - 2013-07-06 12:29:22 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PeHD0M wrote:
Can you disable the neutral ship with warp scram in hi-sec? - Yes
Consequences? - GCC, Concordokken, loss of the security status

Can you disable the neutral ship by bumping it for hours in hi-sec? - Yes
Consequences? - None. Clearly an exploit.

I don't know how to fix it. Even more, i'm not sure that it is even possible to fix it without changing the warp mechanics. But clearly something should be done by CCP, otherwise sooner or later that trick will ruin the game for a lot of players in hi-sec.


We have been doing this for a decade...


Dinosaurs meet reality.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#797 - 2013-07-06 12:31:24 UTC
PeHD0M wrote:
Mag's wrote:
PeHD0M wrote:
This is definitely a flawed game mechanic and exploit.
Except it's definitely not.


Nope. You are wrong.

Bumping miners is one case. Bumping for hours is another. The player tried to move to another location, but he is UNABLE do it because of said actions. Therefore:

Quote:
However, persistent targeting of a player with bumping by following them around after they have made an effort to move on to another location can be classified as harassment, and this will be judged on a case by case basis.


Yet I bet you see no issue with ponting a titan for 3 hours. Once again the bears of highsec demand to be exempt from pvp.
Callyuk
M1A12 Corp
#798 - 2013-07-06 12:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Callyuk
Goon Gummy Bear Tears MMMMMMMM YUMMMY
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#799 - 2013-07-06 12:51:27 UTC
I think Callyuk has completely lost his mind, he's just ranting against the goon bogeyman when the majority of the people in this thread aren't even goons to begin with
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#800 - 2013-07-06 13:07:53 UTC
Typherian wrote:
Yes it says "hey we are using the systems provided to kill people trying to solo in an MMO." You can whine and cry all you want but playing eve solo will always put you at a disadvantage. Crying that you don't like a mechanic doesn't make it an exploit.



If you need the mechanic to accomplish a goal, without having to depend on it (let it do it's thing in the background) then it's working how it should. You know... such as... having to chase a ship, or try to reship and let that timer keep the person getting away scot free.

When you sit there and take pop shots, just to refresh a timer so he cannot do anything, that's exploiting it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.