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Robert Saint
The Grumpy Dogs
#21 - 2013-06-25 20:01:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Saint
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#22 - 2013-06-25 20:08:19 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
See, you posters so far have just played this game too much and are comfortable with the status as is.

Best of luck to you... I get it, there is a very strong base of entrenched players that don't want their cheese moved and many of your responses, IE. Biomass my toon..... are a perfect example of how you have lost the connection with a friendly gaming experience. You may have made friends with your own sorts, that like to bully or whatever it is that you get your kicks from, but there are players , like myself, my wife, kids, etc.. that would enjoy a space game as well, but loonies like most of you are too tight fisted to let go of your precious....


You exemplify poor sportsmanship to its finest and are perfectly comfortable scamming players, ganging up on new players, etc... in the gist of "it's all part of the game". When a player suggests a fair combat experience, you diss it immediately in numbers.... wow!

Your game persona is "your persona" friends, as there is no difference. So if you're a jerk in game and you get your kicks from it, then well you're a jerk in RL as well.

You are simply different versions of "The Mittani"

Peace


Roll
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#23 - 2013-06-25 20:14:10 UTC
Suggestion:

- Start a corp focused on providing tournaments to players. Your sales pitch is that both players put money up front, and neither gets their deposit back unless the fight is judged to be fair by you, the neutral third party.
- You and your corp mates are what ensure fair fights, by penalizing (taking the deposit) and regulating (i.e. destroying) offending players.
- Advertise the fights before hand, and publicize them through live feeds such as twitch.
- Build up a name and reputation for yourself as a reliable and fair promoter of fair ship-on-ship fights.

With this, you can achieve your goals of fair fights, while also creating something unique and worthwhile in the EvE community.

All the tools you need are there. All it lacks is motivation and seeing it through. Good luck!

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#24 - 2013-06-25 20:16:01 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
See, you posters so far have just played this game too much and are comfortable with the status as is.

Best of luck to you... I get it, there is a very strong base of entrenched players that don't want their cheese moved and many of your responses, IE. Biomass my toon..... are a perfect example of how you have lost the connection with a friendly gaming experience. You may have made friends with your own sorts, that like to bully or whatever it is that you get your kicks from, but there are players , like myself, my wife, kids, etc.. that would enjoy a space game as well, but loonies like most of you are too tight fisted to let go of your precious....


You exemplify poor sportsmanship to its finest and are perfectly comfortable scamming players, ganging up on new players, etc... in the gist of "it's all part of the game". When a player suggests a fair combat experience, you diss it immediately in numbers.... wow!

Your game persona is "your persona" friends, as there is no difference. So if you're a jerk in game and you get your kicks from it, then well you're a jerk in RL as well.

You are simply different versions of "The Mittani"

Peace


Please see my sig. This game, and our actions in it or on it's forums, does not equal real life. If you are incapable of truly seeing that difference, than gaming in general may not be for you.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#25 - 2013-06-25 20:22:17 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
I am a High Sec player because I like a fair fight,


Stopped reading right there. There are no fair fights in Highsec.


Ive dueled plenty of people in highsec and low/null, and I can tell you that everytime I dueled in High, the other person had neutral RR alts warp in to help. On the other hand, when asking for 1v1 at the sun in any null system, so far its always been a fair 1v1. I guess Im doing it wrong.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#26 - 2013-06-25 20:35:45 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
See, you posters so far have just played this game too much and are comfortable with the status as is.

Best of luck to you... I get it, there is a very strong base of entrenched players that don't want their cheese moved and many of your responses, IE. Biomass my toon..... are a perfect example of how you have lost the connection with a friendly gaming experience. You may have made friends with your own sorts, that like to bully or whatever it is that you get your kicks from, but there are players , like myself, my wife, kids, etc.. that would enjoy a space game as well, but loonies like most of you are too tight fisted to let go of your precious....


You exemplify poor sportsmanship to its finest and are perfectly comfortable scamming players, ganging up on new players, etc... in the gist of "it's all part of the game". When a player suggests a fair combat experience, you diss it immediately in numbers.... wow!

Your game persona is "your persona" friends, as there is no difference. So if you're a jerk in game and you get your kicks from it, then well you're a jerk in RL as well.

You are simply different versions of "The Mittani"

Peace


You know, while I admit there are many not-so-constructive posts in this thread, you might want to take a step back and ask yourself why you are getting such a backlash? This isn't *just* a bunch of troll posters that are "entrenched" in the game and don't want their cheese moved, there are a lot of legitimate replies that you somehow missed.

Here is a couple of things you should consider:

1.) This idea is comes up often... and while that indicates there is support for the idea among some of the player base, it is also routinely "shot down" because people really don't think it through. Your post made no reference to any of the other threads, nor any indication you've actually put thought into the repercussions this might have in game. For example: what are the consequences to adding "instanced fair PvP" to EvE? Finding "fair fights" is difficult, and much of EvE PvP is in the hunt to find a target you can take while simultaneously not being the target of some bigger fish. How will the addition of instant gratification PvP hurt the FW & Nullsec PvP?

2.) You didn't think your own idea out. While you dressed it up, and made it look "pretty", your whole argument is "There is no fairness in PVP areas at this time, so it's bad for those who want a fair combat situation. " How exactly will you balance the PvP Arena? Will everyone suddenly get the same fitting options (no officer, deadspace, and faction modules?), will everyone be balanced skillpoint wise (you get treated as an all V character?), etc, etc, etc... And even limiting it to something as broad as t1 frigates is very imbalancing just by itself... I could bring a griffin, and just permajam you until you forfeit the match! Have you ever taken a brawling setup vs a kiting setup? If the brawler doesn't get to chose the "starting distances", they certainly won't find your arena fair... and vice versa! How do you handle fleet boosters, etc? How do you handle BS vs BS when they can permatank each other's dps? There are many annoying and silly problems that come up when trying to setup a "fair" arena, and you completely missed that point somehow!!!!

3.) "Extremely Poor Sportsmanship", and "Like the Mittani", and calling people a jerk in real life is a pisspoor way to respond. How about you actually ignore the troll posts and focus on the legit problems of your idea.

Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#27 - 2013-06-25 20:48:53 UTC
Posting to support the OP. Not due to fairness, but due to the fact most don't have time to be full time space captains, but want a reliable pvp experience. RvB will have to do for now I guess.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#28 - 2013-06-25 20:56:57 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
Posting to support the OP. Not due to fairness, but due to the fact most don't have time to be full time space captains, but want a reliable pvp experience. RvB will have to do for now I guess.


FW is also a decent choice... depending on where you live.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#29 - 2013-06-25 20:57:32 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
It's not exactly a sanctioned use of the test server, but you can "test out" how to PVP on Singularity. Everything is seeded for 100 isk. Just make sure you read the rules first, report any bugs you find and participate constructively in mass testing as a "thank you" for CCP providing us with access to Singularity in the first place.

--- But it IS a sanctioned use of the Test Server. They have a PvP system setup for dueling, along with beacons that state BS PvP or .... CCP also sets up the test servers for AT teams to practice on, in "arena" style.


I know that the SCL matches are conducted on SiSi, since it's easier for them to use their tournament tools there. I didn't know about the other stuff, not being particularly interested in PvP myself and having made efforts to generally avoid 6-CZ. I was under the assumption that the intended purpose of SiSi was to test stuff for CCP and that they just let all the "other stuff" go.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-06-25 21:22:21 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
See, you posters so far have just played this game too much and are comfortable with the status as is.

Best of luck to you... I get it, there is a very strong base of entrenched players that don't want their cheese moved and many of your responses, IE. Biomass my toon..... are a perfect example of how you have lost the connection with a friendly gaming experience. You may have made friends with your own sorts, that like to bully or whatever it is that you get your kicks from, but there are players , like myself, my wife, kids, etc.. that would enjoy a space game as well, but loonies like most of you are too tight fisted to let go of your precious....


You exemplify poor sportsmanship to its finest and are perfectly comfortable scamming players, ganging up on new players, etc... in the gist of "it's all part of the game". When a player suggests a fair combat experience, you diss it immediately in numbers.... wow!

Your game persona is "your persona" friends, as there is no difference. So if you're a jerk in game and you get your kicks from it, then well you're a jerk in RL as well.

You are simply different versions of "The Mittani"

Peace

To be clear, my suggestion for you to biomass yourself comes from the fact that your idea indicates you do not want to play this game. Seeing as you are asking to change one of the fundamental aspects of it.

Also how do you plan to stop me from having my alts "duel" each other to make them invunerable?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#31 - 2013-06-25 22:02:38 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
See, you posters so far have just played this game too much and are comfortable with the status as is.

Best of luck to you... I get it, there is a very strong base of entrenched players that don't want their cheese moved and many of your responses, IE. Biomass my toon..... are a perfect example of how you have lost the connection with a friendly gaming experience. You may have made friends with your own sorts, that like to bully or whatever it is that you get your kicks from, but there are players , like myself, my wife, kids, etc.. that would enjoy a space game as well, but loonies like most of you are too tight fisted to let go of your precious....


You exemplify poor sportsmanship to its finest and are perfectly comfortable scamming players, ganging up on new players, etc... in the gist of "it's all part of the game". When a player suggests a fair combat experience, you diss it immediately in numbers.... wow!

Your game persona is "your persona" friends, as there is no difference. So if you're a jerk in game and you get your kicks from it, then well you're a jerk in RL as well.

You are simply different versions of "The Mittani"

Peace

I really don't care one way or another concerning arena combat in EvE, although you will find most of what you are looking for on the test server... or simply join Red vs Blue.

However, you kind of went off the deep end there at the end.

My wife and my son both play this game and enjoy it... THIS game, with all of it's dark ways and nefarious deeds. That's the game they signed up for, and frankly would be bored to tears by arena duels.

While I am personally open to new gaming experiences being introduced to EvE, this would be hard to get around without destroying a vital part of EvE's attraction to most of it's player base.

By the way, you really do need to learn how to seperate reality from fantasy... and projecting that issue on others.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Robert Saint
The Grumpy Dogs
#32 - 2013-06-25 22:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Saint
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serilius Despotist
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-06-25 22:40:09 UTC
No. The only way to PVP is open world pvp. No game (that I know of) has implemented PVP on training wheels (also known as arenas) that it actually helped the overall pvp for the game. Instead, you get people that have all three pvp fights starting to whine and complain about how unbalanced it is and how PVP is broken. PVP should NEVER be fair or 100% "balanced", they should always be a way to gain an advantage on your enemy just like you would in RL. There is no way to effectively balance someone with more experience , better tactics or better understanding of how to beat whatever ship your are flying.

If you want to PVP, learn to PVP. Go buy a couple of cheap ships and go get them blown up, watch the 1 million videos on you tube to get better idea of hows it's done. It's slow, its arduous, and at times painful but it is the way to get better at it and you will have a true feeling of accomplishment at outset. You will only get better by getting defeated by a better opponent.


If you want balanced and safe pvp go play tic-tac-toe.
Robert Saint
The Grumpy Dogs
#34 - 2013-06-25 22:44:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Saint
....
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#35 - 2013-06-25 22:49:48 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
serilius Despotist wrote:
No. The only way to PVP is open world pvp. No game (that I know of) has implemented PVP on training wheels (also known as arenas) that it actually helped the overall pvp for the game. Instead, you get people that have all three pvp fights starting to whine and complain about how unbalanced it is and how PVP is broken. PVP should NEVER be fair or 100% "balanced", they should always be a way to gain an advantage on your enemy just like you would in RL. There is no way to effectively balance someone with more experience , better tactics or better understanding of how to beat whatever ship your are flying.

If you want to PVP, learn to PVP. Go buy a couple of cheap ships and go get them blown up, watch the 1 million videos on you tube to get better idea of hows it's done. It's slow, its arduous, and at times painful but it is the way to get better at it and you will have a true feeling of accomplishment at outset. You will only get better by getting defeated by a better opponent.


If you want balanced and safe pvp go play tic-tac-toe.



Why does EVERYONE just follow their comments with GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME.... terrible response really!
Arenas wouldn't be balanced and the point isn't that... it's to be fair going in, and that is to face ONE player VS ONE Player, no matter how good they are, you just figure it out .... sometimes you'll win others not.... but that is gaming, not ganging.

I've said my peace... thanks for listening... done


I solo in nullsec a fair bit, and find 1v1's aren't all that uncommon. I also find myself in 1vs many and many vs 1 situations, and learning how to setup that fight is part of PvP.

PvP might be "too hard" for your 11 year old, but I don't think making easy PvP that any 11 year old can do would truly benefit this game.

FYI, go to sisi, your 11 year old son can fly any ships they can skill for, and fight all the 1v1's they want without fear of losing billions of isk...
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-06-25 22:50:34 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:

Why does EVERYONE just follow their comments with GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME.

Because this game is not the game you are looking for.
serilius Despotist
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-06-25 22:55:22 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
serilius Despotist wrote:
No. The only way to PVP is open world pvp. No game (that I know of) has implemented PVP on training wheels (also known as arenas) that it actually helped the overall pvp for the game. Instead, you get people that have all three pvp fights starting to whine and complain about how unbalanced it is and how PVP is broken. PVP should NEVER be fair or 100% "balanced", they should always be a way to gain an advantage on your enemy just like you would in RL. There is no way to effectively balance someone with more experience , better tactics or better understanding of how to beat whatever ship your are flying.

If you want to PVP, learn to PVP. Go buy a couple of cheap ships and go get them blown up, watch the 1 million videos on you tube to get better idea of hows it's done. It's slow, its arduous, and at times painful but it is the way to get better at it and you will have a true feeling of accomplishment at outset. You will only get better by getting defeated by a better opponent.


If you want balanced and safe pvp go play tic-tac-toe.



Why does EVERYONE just follow their comments with GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME.... terrible response really!
Arenas wouldn't be balanced and the point isn't that... it's to be fair going in, and that is to face ONE player VS ONE Player, no matter how good they are, you just figure it out .... sometimes you'll win others not.... but that is gaming, not ganging.

I've said my peace... thanks for listening... done


I get what you are wanting, but I don't agree with the solution you propose. Better suggestion would be to come up with a player driven solution instead of a new system / area / etc to pvp there is already plenty of space for that.

What about working with other corps and alliances to come up with a 1v1 tournament? The alliance(s) would run the tourney and provide security (properly compensated of course) and everyone gets to try their hand an blowing stuff up one on one. I'm not saying that's a great solution, or would even work.. but at least that would be a worthier endeavor than saying "hey lets be like every other MMO and have arenas!". Lets try to not turn eve into a "me to" MMO and instead focus on what the sandbox gives us. Everyone loves 1v1 pvp, just not at the expense of open world PVP.
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-06-25 23:12:37 UTC
All hate aside, and I do mean that there's a lot of hate for this idea, I think it's a bad idea.

EVE IS UNFAIR

The players know, the devs know it, CCP Hilmar knows it. It's why we love EVE PvP, and it's something the devs have stood up for time and again. The very nature of EVE means that the majority of a fight happens before a shot is fired. The right fit, the right situation, it's everything in EVE. And that's why us career PvP'ers play EVE.

Your idea would remove pilots that PvP daily and put them in these arenas. It would be repetitive and boring. The idea in my mind before every roam is "What if?" What if I catch a rorqual and bump him off a station? What if I catch a Provi off a gate right after an unscheduled server shutdown? What if I land on an afk pilot off a gate? What if I get baited, and their plan goes badly and I kill something shiny? (All of these situations have happened to me).

If you remove the "What if?" element by enticing players to play in "Fair" arenas it would ruin PvP for the rest of us. I know your idea seems harmless since it doesn't change the PvP aspects of the rest of the game, but you're missing the fact that it would starve the rest of the PvP areas of newer players and bring the wrong types of gamers to New Eden.

You asked for player credentials? I'm a 5 year vet, 4 in PvP, and at least 3 solid years as a solo/small gang roamer.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2013-06-25 23:15:23 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
Fear..... on all sides.


X Fear ... That your PVP experience will change, yet you have a choice to not play an Arena and stay in current PVP zones.
Cool Fear ... That that Arenas will effect the economy, but blowing up ships is good business for CCP and Market makers.
Twisted Fear ... That it will be exploitable, maybe until a patch or two.
Question Fear ... That your actions somehow aren't you, but it's a game folks that you play with real people who would like to make friends. Be kind to people, even is battle! That's why my 11 year old won't play. it's boring for him in PVE and too hard to PVP!

Fear ... sure on my end - that I am wasting time skilling toons for a game I think has greatness, but a strong player base that wants to promote only a very negative side of combat, rather than real sportsmanship.....

hasn't any of you been to a kids soccer game.... the coaches and parents are ten times worse than EVE PVP players.


in regard to fittings, etc.... each player decides what he is willing to risk on the match, so if he's willing to go in with faction, so be it! At least it has the foundation of fair = 1 on 1....etc.



Erm, dude? We don't WANT sportsmanship here. EVE is not a fair play game. EVE is a dark, harsh and uncaring universe. If you want to try and promote sportsmanship and all that, good luck, but don't try and get the game mechanics changed to benefit you and you alone.

Also, how is 1v1 fair if you've got, say, a day one newbie in a rifter vs a ten year veteran in an utu? Or a guy in a merlin fighting a dramiel? Trying to make something like this actually remotley fair would involve a hell of a lot of work beyond instanced arenas, which are in themselves exactly what EVE is not.

As an aside, isn't the average EVE player something like 28? Why should the game be balanced around the enjoyment of an eleven year old?
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-06-25 23:17:52 UTC
Robert Saint wrote:
]
Why does EVERYONE just follow their comments with GO PLAY ANOTHER GAME.... terrible response really!
Arenas wouldn't be balanced and the point isn't that... it's to be fair going in, and that is to face ONE player VS ONE Player, no matter how good they are, you just figure it out .... sometimes you'll win others not.... but that is gaming, not ganging. it's sort of sad, that the player base in general is so protective, I love the game and would enjoy promoting it, but values are more important.. Not saying that there shouldn't be a Pirate section (since that part is fun, when you're ready)... This is a bit old fashioned, I'm sure, but I think that combat has honor and should have a place in EVE.

I've said my peace... thanks for listening... done


Values are important. But your values are not the values the Veterans that make this game happen love. Combat DOES NOT have honor, none of us do, that's an underlying principle of New Eden down to the very Lore of the game. Above all if yourself, give your corpmates enough trust to get things done, but that's as far as it goes. If you want honor, arenas, etc. you don't play EVE (Which is why people are telling you to play another game).

And, on the fact of gaming vs. ganging, newer players need superior numbers to be able to compete with veterans. And veterans need to fight against the odds to find players that'll engage them. Fights are often lopsided, but it's the nature of a sandbox. And EVE is a sandbox.