These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Federation and Republic citizens, lets talk about the situation.

Author
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#121 - 2013-07-06 10:14:54 UTC
Anslo wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
​The facts are simple and not in dispute.

A Tribal fleet supported by capsuleers loyal to the Tribal Entity violated Federal territory.

Unprovoked this fleet opened fire on Federal military assets killing Federal service personnel.

When at last Chieftain Midular is sent to her rest. The Tribals must answer for Colelie.


When do the Angels answer for what they've done?


I fail to see the relevance in your statement to this discussion. The Cartel, who will be brought to account for their actions, are not the matter for debate here.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-07-06 11:20:10 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

In any case, I don't expect the fact that it was a Republic Fleet strike force to make any difference. The military itself is not responsible, Shakor is.

Both Shakor and Roden should be hung on the same tree.
As for military, this is true only to some extent. You know, someone actually develop these attack plans, right?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-07-06 15:06:20 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

As for military, this is true only to some extent. You know, someone actually develop these attack plans, right?


Certainly. But since Shakor is the head of state in the Republic, he's responsible for deciding "Good plan, let's go invade the Federation". I suppose this all could have been the actions of rogue members within the Republic Fleet, but - especially considering they'd stated that their orders came from the highest level of the Republic - you'd imagine Shakor would be taking pains to at least explain that it was a rogue action. By his silence he is complicit.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#124 - 2013-07-07 01:45:00 UTC
How do we fix it? We acknowledge the idiocy of the past, forgive each other, and move on. Whether or not both the Federation and the Republic are mature enough for such a revolutionary action is yet to be seen.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#125 - 2013-07-07 03:44:45 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
How do we fix it? We acknowledge the idiocy of the past, forgive each other, and move on. Whether or not both the Federation and the Republic are mature enough for such a revolutionary action is yet to be seen.

Forgive me Msr Merovech, while you are no doubt well intentioned you seem to be implying some kind of parity in this situation?

What exactly are the Tribals forgiving the Federation for? Trying a Federal citizen in a Federal Court for a crime on Federal soil.

The Federation however is supposed to forgive two incursions into its territory and the premeditated murder of thousands of its service personnel.

Not to mention they don't seem to think they need forgiving.

I may not be an active participant in Federal politics these days, but I don't think so. And I dare say the voters will agree.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2013-07-07 05:50:01 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
How do we fix it? We acknowledge the idiocy of the past, forgive each other, and move on. Whether or not both the Federation and the Republic are mature enough for such a revolutionary action is yet to be seen.


Good idea!

After the first incursion and Sebiestor Tribe apology, the Federation forgave. Evidently this encouraged Shakor to believe that he could then bring a capital fleet into Colelie and start shooting the Navy. What would we embolden him to try next, if we simply forgave one another and left it at that?

I'm not personally particularly concerned with playing a blame or apology game. What I am concerned with is the fact that the Republic is getting quite a solid history of shooting whatever it feels like with the slimmest "justifications". I don't care so much if Shakor issues an apology or not. I simply want the Federation to take steps to prevent something like this from happening again.

President Roden, don't ignore the Republican threat on your doorstep! Let the alliance end!

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#127 - 2013-07-07 10:59:32 UTC
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
How do we fix it? We acknowledge the idiocy of the past, forgive each other, and move on. Whether or not both the Federation and the Republic are mature enough for such a revolutionary action is yet to be seen.


As Mr. Syagrius and Ms. Akahoshi put it nicely:

Your funeral.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc

Civ Kado
State War Academy
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-07-08 06:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Civ Kado
The only thing this whole fiasco shows is that the Gallente and Minmatars finally reached a breaking point.

It was only a matter of time, and it shows that they both are the truly evil side in all this. Both of them were just putting up a front while trying to figure out a way of stabbing each other in the back. Unlike them, us Caldari appreciate the relations we have with the Amarr.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2013-07-08 07:53:40 UTC
Civ Kado wrote:
The only thing this whole fiasco shows is that the Gallente and Minmatars finally reached a breaking point.

It was only a matter of time, and it shows that they both are the truly evil side in all this. Both of them were just putting up a front while trying to figure out a way of stabbing each other in the back. Unlike them, us Caldari appreciate the relations we have with the Amarr.

I have to wonder at which is a worse: a feud between neighbors, or a house in complete disarray?
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#130 - 2013-07-08 09:00:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Civ Kado wrote:
The only thing this whole fiasco shows is that the Gallente and Minmatars finally reached a breaking point.

It was only a matter of time, and it shows that they both are the truly evil side in all this. Both of them were just putting up a front while trying to figure out a way of stabbing each other in the back. Unlike them, us Caldari appreciate the relations we have with the Amarr.


I don't see where the Federation was planning to stab anyone in the back here. Are you always this stupidly blinded by your loyalties when it comes to failing to make a logical opinion?


Will note it's amusing, if there are discussions for the Caldari, comments from outsiders are rebuked with screams to leave, that they are not wanted. Yet there's an increasing number of Caldari commenting here, where they are neither Federal nor Republican citizens.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Anslo
Scope Works
#131 - 2013-07-08 12:34:40 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Anslo wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
​The facts are simple and not in dispute.

A Tribal fleet supported by capsuleers loyal to the Tribal Entity violated Federal territory.

Unprovoked this fleet opened fire on Federal military assets killing Federal service personnel.

When at last Chieftain Midular is sent to her rest. The Tribals must answer for Colelie.


When do the Angels answer for what they've done?


I fail to see the relevance in your statement to this discussion. The Cartel, who will be brought to account for their actions, are not the matter for debate here.


It's relevant because an Angel has no right to pass judgement on anyone in terms of what action is right or wrong. It's hypocritical.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#132 - 2013-07-08 15:23:11 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Anslo wrote:
James Syagrius wrote:
​The facts are simple and not in dispute.

A Tribal fleet supported by capsuleers loyal to the Tribal Entity violated Federal territory.

Unprovoked this fleet opened fire on Federal military assets killing Federal service personnel.

When at last Chieftain Midular is sent to her rest. The Tribals must answer for Colelie.


When do the Angels answer for what they've done?


I fail to see the relevance in your statement to this discussion. The Cartel, who will be brought to account for their actions, are not the matter for debate here.


It's relevant because an Angel has no right to pass judgement on anyone in terms of what action is right or wrong. It's hypocritical.


Hypocrisy has nothing to do with it.

You could be the most terrible chef in the world, but you could still have the right to say when something tastes disgusting.


If anything, his lack of moral standing highlights the severity of the issue, when even criminals are offended by actions of betrayal it's certainly wrong.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2013-07-08 17:55:36 UTC
I suspect this has more to do with Anslo and Sygarius' respective politics than anything else. Anslo has clearly and repeatedly stated that he sees the fault for Colelie as sitting equally with both the Federation and the Republic, and that the only way forward for the Republic and the Federation is to acknowledge that and move on. Sygarius, on the other hand, seems to see the Republic's actions as a betrayal of one ally by another, and supports at the very least sanctions against the Republic. Were Sygarius more an ostrich or a dove, I don't think Anslo would be so vehement in his desire to silence him.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#134 - 2013-07-08 22:49:33 UTC
Anslos accusations against me are not without merit.

I do work for the Cartel and as such I expect my actions to be suspect.

When your argument is without merit you attack the individual, its a pastime as old as Federal politics.

Anslo will forgive his Tribal masters anything.

The difference between us, I am an honest villain.
Anslo
Scope Works
#135 - 2013-07-09 15:05:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Who said anything about forgiving without reconciliation? Maybe if you actually had more substance to your own arguments, you wouldn't have to twist my words for your own purpose.

Look back at what I've said before. The Republic DOES need to answer for what happened, preferably in a non-violent manner such as sanctions. When I say both parties are at fault, I mean BOTH the Federation AND Republic. Not just the Federation.

What I'm NOT for is tearing up treaties and blasting up ships and stations in revenge. I like to think we're a weeee bit better than that. But hey by all means keep trying to twist my words, it's funny.

But the argument does have merit, though you seem to enjoy ignoring it. So, I'll spell it out for you. How do you have ANY credibility or action to stand on and call out the Republic for one skirmish when you pull **** like this everyday of the week as a normal business day?

Answer: None.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#136 - 2013-07-09 16:36:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Caellach Marellus
Anslo wrote:
How do you have ANY credibility or action to stand on and call out the Republic for one skirmish when you pull **** like this everyday of the week as a normal business day?


You overlook a fundamental flaw in this argument.

The Angel Cartel do not have an alliance, bound by treaties and laws, to the Federation.

Hostile action against the Federation is expected from them, and they don't hide it. To be frank, I'd rather listen to the man shooting me in the face than the one stabbing me in the back.


Yes he's lawbreaking scum, but he's honest about it.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.

Anslo
Scope Works
#137 - 2013-07-09 16:42:39 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Anslo wrote:
How do you have ANY credibility or action to stand on and call out the Republic for one skirmish when you pull **** like this everyday of the week as a normal business day?


You overlook a fundamental flaw in this argument.

The Angel Cartel do not have an alliance, bound by treaties and laws, to the Federation.

Hostile action against the Federation is expected from them, and they don't hide it. To be frank, I'd rather listen to the man shooting me in the face than the one stabbing me in the back.


Yes he's lawbreaking scum, but he's honest about it.


So because he doesn't have an alliance, his argument is valid, despite what he does on the regular?

I'm just gonna agree to disagree with you if that's the case.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]

Nicolas Merovech
Doomheim
#138 - 2013-07-09 16:50:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolas Merovech
James Syagrius wrote:
Nicolas Merovech wrote:
How do we fix it? We acknowledge the idiocy of the past, forgive each other, and move on. Whether or not both the Federation and the Republic are mature enough for such a revolutionary action is yet to be seen.

Forgive me Msr Merovech, while you are no doubt well intentioned you seem to be implying some kind of parity in this situation?

What exactly are the Tribals forgiving the Federation for? Trying a Federal citizen in a Federal Court for a crime on Federal soil.

The Federation however is supposed to forgive two incursions into its territory and the premeditated murder of thousands of its service personnel.

Not to mention they don't seem to think they need forgiving.

I may not be an active participant in Federal politics these days, but I don't think so. And I dare say the voters will agree.


On both counts, I give a resounding yes. I don't deal in politics, I deal in truth; voters be damned.

The truth is that this is an idiotic squabble between two allied governments on whom the lives of trillions depend, and it is distracting them from their real problems. There are more important things to worry about in the cluster than a handful of lives, legal disputes and old traditions. If this is unacceptable to you, I recommend to find a wall of reality and bang your head against it until you see clearly.

Judging by the protest to my previous statement (and the manner in which it was done) it seems that many of my fellow capsuleers are just as immature as the rest. Disappointing.

Dr. Nicolas A. Merovech, Ph. D, M.D.

Steffanie Saissore
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#139 - 2013-07-09 16:53:17 UTC
It seems that the following can describe the current point of views held by Republican capsuleers and Federation capsuleers on the matter:

  • Republicans who do not believe an apology is necessary
  • Federates who want an apology
  • Federates who want to invade the Republic to teach them a lesson
  • Republicans who think there should be reconciliation
  • Republicans and Federates who don't give a care

I admit these are pretty broad strokes and there is more going on in the details, but at the end of the day we have a group of highly powerful individuals expressing their opinion on a matter that, at the end of the day, almost doesn't matter. The Republic does not appear to even acknowledge the events surrounding this disaster and the Senate hasn't made any demands on behalf of the Federation.

Thousands of men and women were sacrificed in nothing more than a game of chicken played by two political entities.

I am beginning to wonder who is more the monster here...the capsuleer or the politician.

We travel in the dark of the new moon,

A starry highway traced on the map of the sky

Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#140 - 2013-07-09 17:24:57 UTC
Steffanie Saissore wrote:
It seems that the following can describe the current point of views held by Republican capsuleers and Federation capsuleers on the matter:

  • Republicans who do not believe an apology is necessary
  • Federates who want an apology
  • Federates who want to invade the Republic to teach them a lesson
  • Republicans who think there should be reconciliation
  • Republicans and Federates who don't give a care

I admit these are pretty broad strokes and there is more going on in the details, but at the end of the day we have a group of highly powerful individuals expressing their opinion on a matter that, at the end of the day, almost doesn't matter. The Republic does not appear to even acknowledge the events surrounding this disaster and the Senate hasn't made any demands on behalf of the Federation.

Thousands of men and women were sacrificed in nothing more than a game of chicken played by two political entities.

I am beginning to wonder who is more the monster here...the capsuleer or the politician.


It's easy to get hung up on the Republic's lack of response and totally forget that the Federation has been curiously silent. Well remarked.

The only reasonable conclusion that can be drawn is that discussion simply occurred behind closed doors, and this discussion is actually out of date. Conspiracy theories, go!

Oh, and Anslo and Caellach... I've been giggling hysterically for several minutes. Never thought I'd see the day you two got into a catfight. Seriously, relax. You're both pretty.