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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Federation and Republic citizens, lets talk about the situation.

Author
Repentence Tyrathlion
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#61 - 2013-06-26 12:15:19 UTC
Question for you, Anslo. Your position is that the Federation needs to make the first move here, yes? The Republic attack, while unreasonable by any standard, was a reaction to long-term (and short-term) maltreatment politically and culturally on the part of the Federation. In order to move on and rebuild ties, apologies must be made and gestures undertaken to bring everyone to the table.

Do correct me if I'm misreading you. With that in mind...

What is your take on the idea that the Federation has already offered the proverbial olive branch? As was pointed out by someone else, Broteau was a Federation citizen, committing a crime on Federation territory, against Federation citizens - plus Midular. The Federation was well within its rights to hold a trial and pass sentence before taking further action. Important a figure as the Ray may have been, one would hope that we can all agree that before the objective face of the law, she was just one among many.

The Republic then attacked (or whatever you want to call it). Lives lost, great tragedy, that's all been discussed to death. Yet the Federation went ahead and extradited Broteau anyway, despite a wide variety of reasons not to. You can take the view that this was a case of giving the Republic plenty of rope, with all distinctly phony declarations of surprise and disappointment at the result, but it was also a peace offering of sorts. They're not even mutually exclusive, knowing how divided your government is at the best of times.

The Minmatar are a proud people. Asking forgiveness or owning up to doing something wrong is pretty humbling for anyone. The Federation has its pride as well. Sometimes actions are easier than words.

That could be the epitaph of this whole sorry business.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-06-26 15:12:01 UTC
Erys Charantes wrote:
You want to know why it's worth keeping it around? [...] Look to the enemies of the Federation, waiting just outside the borders to burn it all down, and ask that.


I'm not going to speak to the Republic side of things here, just the Federation.

"We must remain allies because otherwise the enemies slavering at the gates will destroy the Federation!"

This is a rationale that I've heard quite a few times, and it always bothers me because it doesn't really stand up to examination. The Federation faces between two and four strong potential enemies at this time. The standard two, the Caldari State and the Amarr Empire, are historical ones. In the case of the State, there really isn't a great danger of the Federation being overrun - the Caldari Navy is well-equipped and their people are brave, but they are primarily a defensive force. Remember it took the commitment of the entire Caldari Navy, plus the treason of a Federation Navy admiral, plus the loss of CONCORD infrastructure surrounding the Republic attack on CONCORD in Yulai to enable the Caldari Navy to successfully conquer and hold one planet.

While friction has existed between the Empire and the Federation since first contact, there has never been any true open warfare between the two. Some may point to the Empire-State alliance in the CEMWPA arena, but CEMWPA cannot be considered open warfare by any meaning of the term. Historically the Empire and the Federation have had a long and mutually beneficial relationship, but we'll simply examine things from a simple power potential point of view: The Amarr Nvy can successfully support a full-scale open war against the Federation, but the risk would be tremendous to the Empire. The primary military target of the Minmatar Republic has always been the Amarr Empire, and there is no question that the Republic would attack as soon as the Amarr Navy crossed the Federation border. This is beside the normal risks in war: The Imperial Navy is larger than the Federation Navy, though not significantly larger. It is also composed of ships that, as a whole, are less advanced than the ships of the Federation Navy. It's not a stretch to call them evenly matched, meaning the likely outcome of a war is that the victor would be in a very weak state.

The third potential strong enemy is the Nation, who continue to operate without systematic opposition throughout the cluster. Since all nations face the same threat from them, I will not discuss the Nation further here.

The fourth, of course, is the Republic. The Federation is already allied with the Republic, yet that did not prevent the Republic from launching a military attack with a capital fleet against us.

Why, then, is there any benefit in the Federation maintaining this alliance?

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#63 - 2013-06-26 15:32:04 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:


Why, then, is there any benefit in the Federation maintaining this alliance?


Because the situation is not static. You say yourself that part of the reason the Empire does not attempt to Reclaim the Federation is because the Republic would hit their flank. Follow the logic through to its conclusion.
Jarac Raasen
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-06-26 15:41:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarac Raasen
Anslo wrote:
Rioghal Morgan wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:


I would like to know why you think this is, pilot Morgan. While I agree that our two governments were close allies five years ago, this has certainly not been the case lately. Under Shakor, the Republic seems all too willing to throw the Federation under the shuttle - or dreadnaught, as the case may be.


We have over a century of history together, from our initial help with fueling the Rebellion's needs to the present. I don't see why we should allow the (admittedly outrageous) actions of one regime to make us throw away all the intermingling of peoples, cultures (yes, the Minmatar have had effects on our culture too not just the other way around) and ideals away. My family is an excellent example of this, my great-great-grandmother being one of the first Gallenteans to die in the struggle for our allies' freedom.

Bonds this deep are worth saving.


THANK YOU. All of my this.

OK so some nutter extremists came in and invaded. Not good. This doesn't mean the whole of the Republic backed this event. This doesn't mean every Matari is anti-Federation. But seriously, they didn't even get information about Midular til it was too late. We didn't meet them in the middle as an entity that is supposed to be a 'moral paragon' and leader in progressive thought.

We didn't reach across the celestial aisle despite their (justified) outrage and say, "Look, this is bad. Really bad. We get that you're angry, but we can't just go find and kill the guy or let you all come in and then we back off. But we know this means a lot to you. Send over your best investigators and security people, and let's work together side-by-side to bring this bastard to justice." See, IF we had done that instead of letting pompous, nationalist windbag politicians treat the Minmatar like children and just saying "no," as opposed to a people capable of LOGICAL REASONING, this whole thing could have been avoided.

AND THEN The Fed has the balls to say that this is ALL the Republic's fault. Is it in part their fault? Sure. Who the hell sends dreads over to an ally's space to get a criminal mid-trial or grab a lady in IC that might die if she moves? But the blame isn't just the Republic's...no, not the Republic. The extremists in the dreadnaughts. It's our fault too for being such stuck up political assholes. Plain and simple.

We're both at fault and loyalists on both sides are acting like school children yelling YOU STARTED IT, NU UH, YA HUH, NA UH.

For ****'s sake man. Both side's diplomats need to sit down and hammer this out. Preferably more worldly and exposed diplos from BOTH SIDES.


I say we throw out this stuffy old guard and replace them with newer, younger generations. Those who might have cooler heads and won't act so high and mighty. Our alliance with the Minmatar must be preserved. Hot-heads on both sides run the risk of blowing it up!
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-06-26 19:16:30 UTC
Andrea Okazon wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:


Why, then, is there any benefit in the Federation maintaining this alliance?


Because the situation is not static. You say yourself that part of the reason the Empire does not attempt to Reclaim the Federation is because the Republic would hit their flank. Follow the logic through to its conclusion.


The Empire did not attempt to reclaim the Federation upon first contact. The Federation was much smaller at the time, it was engaged in a war with the nascent Caldari State, the Minmatar rebellions had not happened, and the Empire had not suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of the Jove. Why would they behave differently now?

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2013-06-26 19:17:27 UTC
Jarac Raasen wrote:
Our alliance with the Republic (my correction) must be preserved.


Why?

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#67 - 2013-06-26 22:22:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
The Empire has become less and less interested in expansion. Before the Elder Fleet attack, the prevailing sentiment was that the glorious reclaiming of the cluster would be through turning hearts and minds to the true Faith.

Honestly, pre-Elder invasion it looked much like an old bear that just wanted to take a long nap.

Heideran? Doriam? They wanted peaceful relations with the rest of the cluster. Then we get a Sarum, you'd think it would be time for an old-time Reclaiming, but all she's done is liberate slaves and reconcile with the Kingdom.

Someone point me to this bloodthirsty, all-consuming Amarr Empire everyone is afraid of, because I haven't seen it in my lifetime.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#68 - 2013-06-26 22:32:43 UTC
Andrea Okazon wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:


Why, then, is there any benefit in the Federation maintaining this alliance?

Because the situation is not static. You say yourself that part of the reason the Empire does not attempt to Reclaim the Federation is because the Republic would hit their flank. Follow the logic through to its conclusion.

Then wouldn't logic dictate that the Empire might seek destroy the Republic first?

Keeping in mind the associated military and historical relationship between the two.

After all you are the weaker party, not to mention the heretics that got away.
Rioghal Morgan
Pixel Navigators
AimogMart
#69 - 2013-06-26 22:32:54 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
[

The Empire did not attempt to reclaim the Federation upon first contact. The Federation was much smaller at the time, it was engaged in a war with the nascent Caldari State, the Minmatar rebellions had not happened, and the Empire had not suffered a crushing defeat at the hands of the Jove. Why would they behave differently now?


It would seems rather imprudent to think an openly hostile power like the Empire has abandoned all designs on us simply because they failed to capitalize on one opportunity a century ago, no? They, or at least a large portion of them, do after all make no bones about the fact that if given the chance they would liked nothing more than to murder us and enslave the shattered remnants afterwards.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2013-06-26 22:37:59 UTC
Rioghal Morgan wrote:
It would seems rather imprudent to think an openly hostile power like the Empire has abandoned all designs on us simply because they failed to capitalize on one opportunity a century ago, no? They, or at least a large portion of them, do after all make no bones about the fact that if given the chance they would liked nothing more than to murder us and enslave the shattered remnants afterwards.


I'm not arguing that they've gone all fedos and furriers, but at the same time there are a lot of people arguing that the threat of an government that hasn't attacked the Federation is a good reason to maintain an alliance with a government that has.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#71 - 2013-06-26 22:44:11 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
The Empire has become less and less interested in expansion. Prior to the Elder Fleet attack, the prevailing sentiment was that the glorious reclaiming of the cluster would be through turning hearts and minds to the true Faith.

Prior to the Minmatar kicking it, it looked much like an old bear that just wanted to take a long nap.

Heideran? Doriam? They wanted peaceful relations with the rest of the cluster. Then we get a Sarum, you'd think it would be time for an old-time Reclaiming, but all she's done is liberate slaves and reconcile with the Kingdom.

Someone point me to this bloodthirsty, all-consuming Amarr Empire everyone is afraid of, because I haven't seen it in my lifetime.

Ma'dam Hanaya's statement is very true.

I understand that many will dismiss my opinion considering my current associations.

But I am a trader first and foremost. I know my markets and by most measures I have been a very successful man even by capsuleer standards.

A closer relationship with the Empire would be very lucrative for both the Federation and the Empire.

Idealism however well-intentioned doesn't feed the masses.
Rioghal Morgan
Pixel Navigators
AimogMart
#72 - 2013-06-26 22:46:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rioghal Morgan
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

I'm not arguing that they've gone all fedos and furriers, but at the same time there are a lot of people arguing that the threat of an government that hasn't attacked the Federation is a good reason to maintain an alliance with a government that has.


Fair enough. Trusting the Empire would be a grievous mistake though. They have no friends, or even recognize neutrality, they only see subjects and future victims when they look upon the cluster.

Back on topic however, there's far more reasons than mutual enemies to bind us to the Republic as I outlined earlier. In case you missed it however, there are ties, of ideals, culture, trade, and even blood that make it clear we are better off together than alone. Regardless of the incompetence or possibly outright malevolence of the governments.

In other words, I love the Matari enough to forgive the Republic for it's betrayal.
Rioghal Morgan
Pixel Navigators
AimogMart
#73 - 2013-06-26 22:53:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rioghal Morgan
James Syagrius wrote:

Ma'dam Hanaya's statement is very true.

I understand that many will dismiss my opinion considering my current associations.

But I am a trader first and foremost. I know my markets and by most measures I have been a very successful man even by capsuleer standards.

A closer relationship with the Empire would be very lucrative for both the Federation and the Empire.

Idealism however well-intentioned doesn't feed the masses.

I would not dismiss your opinion out of hand simply because of your employers but I would remind you the the Empire has proven itself time and again incapable of actual peace. Every foreign power they have encountered has either suffered invasion or the touch of their slavers at some time.

I think far longer than a hundred years since their last large-scale atrocities need to pass before we can trust that the malevolence has been beaten out of them.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#74 - 2013-06-26 22:56:11 UTC
Rioghal Morgan wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:

I'm not arguing that they've gone all fedos and furriers, but at the same time there are a lot of people arguing that the threat of an government that hasn't attacked the Federation is a good reason to maintain an alliance with a government that has.


Fair enough. Trusting the Empire would be a grievous mistake though. They have no friends, or even recognize neutrality, they only see subjects and future victims when they look upon the cluster.

Back on topic however, there's far more reasons than mutual enemies to bind us to the Republic as I outlined earlier. In case you missed it however, there are ties, of ideals, culture, trade, and even blood that make it clear we are better off together than alone. Regardless of the incompetence or possibly outright malevolence of the governments.

In other words, I love the Matari enough to forgive the Republic for it's betrayal.

I understand.

There are many ties that bind, not including billions of Federal citizens that are racially Matar.

But loving someone that hurts you is pathological not logical.

What act I wonder would motivate you to defend your own?
Rioghal Morgan
Pixel Navigators
AimogMart
#75 - 2013-06-26 23:05:12 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

I understand.

There are many ties that bind, not including billions of Federal citizens that are racially Matar.

But loving someone that hurts you is pathological not logical.

What act I wonder would motivate you to defend your own?


I have no love for the Republic government. I imagine a man in your position would understand perfectly well that it's possible to love a people without loving the government.

And if that last point is a jab at my patriotism, I would remind you that curtailing in any small way the capacity of the Empire to make war is an act of defense not just of the Republic but of the rest of the cluster as well, including the Federation.

Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2013-06-26 23:49:39 UTC
Rioghal Morgan wrote:
In other words, I love the Matari enough to forgive the Republic for it's betrayal.


Rioghal Morgan wrote:
I would remind you the the Empire has proven itself time and again incapable of actual peace. Every foreign power they have encountered has either suffered invasion or the touch of their slavers at some time.


It sounds to me like you've got a bit of an agenda that goes beyond mere fact.

While I won't dispute that there are slavers within the Empire who hold slaves of nearly every race in the cluster, I will point out that neither the Caldari State nor the Gallente Federation has faced an invasion from the Empire.

In any case, my position doesn't really have anything to do with my feelings about the Matari. Simply put, the Shakor administration has a sustained history of ignoring treaties it has signed and of throwing the Federation under the shuttle on a whim. Should the Shakor administration decide to change, or should the Matari people decide to replace Shakor with leaders who do honor their alliances, I would be open to changing my position. In the mean time, with no evidence that the Republic won't attack the Federation again, I feel we have no choice but to reassess our alliance.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

BloodBird
The Crucible.
#77 - 2013-06-27 00:15:02 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Why do you bother, your replies only give his delusions credence. Anslo will never find fault with anyone except his own. His words betray his utter hatred for the Federation and his absolute dedication to his tribal... masters. He seeks their approval like a addict seeks drugs. His kind of loyalty has hobbled the Federation for too long. Leave him to his beach and his crabs.


*Audio transmission, 10 seconds of unbroken, cruel laughter, then a sudden stop*

But seriously, do keep it up. With Anslo's apparent anti-Federal bias and love for the Republic clouding his mind and irritating me, having a good laugh at your expense helps allot.

As for the topic, I'll try to get around to a serious reply when I'm not so pressed on time.


Rioghal Morgan
Pixel Navigators
AimogMart
#78 - 2013-06-27 01:37:10 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:


It sounds to me like you've got a bit of an agenda that goes beyond mere fact.

While I won't dispute that there are slavers within the Empire who hold slaves of nearly every race in the cluster, I will point out that neither the Caldari State nor the Gallente Federation has faced an invasion from the Empire.

In any case, my position doesn't really have anything to do with my feelings about the Matari. Simply put, the Shakor administration has a sustained history of ignoring treaties it has signed and of throwing the Federation under the shuttle on a whim. Should the Shakor administration decide to change, or should the Matari people decide to replace Shakor with leaders who do honor their alliances, I would be open to changing my position. In the mean time, with no evidence that the Republic won't attack the Federation again, I feel we have no choice but to reassess our alliance.


Everyone has an agenda. I hope you would not deny that you are the only one without one.

You make that second point like I hadn't already said as much in the very post you quoted. The slaving, Kador incursion, and general attitudes prevalent in the Empire are more than enough to make any proposals of alliance absurd. Only a fool would trust the Empire.

And I agree the alliance requires reassessment, I just don't think it requires dissolution.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2013-06-27 02:57:45 UTC
My agenda should be pretty clear. I'm not in favor of the Federation maintaining an alliance with a hostile government that opens fire upon our own citizens.

In any case, I think you're misunderstanding what I'm trying to say about the Empire. I'm not suggesting the Federation exchange the alliance with the Republic for an identical one with the Empire. Instead, I'm countering the too-common argument that we must stick with the Republic - despite their treatment of us - because the Empire would otherwise roll over us in a minute.

Again I'll put it clearly: The Empire did not invade the Federation when we first made contact, despite the then-smaller size of the Federation, despite the fact that we were at war, and despite the fact that the Empire had not yet suffered losses at the hands of the Minmatar and the Jove. What makes you think that the only thing keeping them from invading now is the Republic?

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)

Rioghal Morgan
Pixel Navigators
AimogMart
#80 - 2013-06-27 05:05:30 UTC
And mine is equally clear, I'm not in favor of breaking a century old alliance because of one incident, despite the severity. One tragedy should not undo all the good of a a centuries' worth of work

I never said that was the only thing keeping them from rolling over us. You're misunderstanding me there.