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Medium Railguns and How to "Fix" Them
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Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2013-07-10 19:27:47 UTC
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Pulses have good tracking? Haha... Compared to what?

You can't compare tracking speed of short range turrets vs. long range turrets.


I can when a short range weapon is outclassing a medium range weapon at medium range.


FYI, blasters and autocannons have better tracking than pulse lasers.
Railguns are long range turrets, not medium range. Artillery and beam lasers are medium range turrets compared to railguns.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#22 - 2013-07-10 19:33:45 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Pulses have good tracking? Haha... Compared to what?

You can't compare tracking speed of short range turrets vs. long range turrets.


I can when a short range weapon is outclassing a medium range weapon at medium range.


FYI, blasters and autocannons have better tracking than pulse lasers.
Railguns are long range turrets, not medium range. Artillery and beam lasers are medium range turrets compared to railguns.

Current railgun range is too close to medium pulse lasers, which means it'll always apply less damage because of it's lower than pulse tracking.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-07-10 19:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tobias Hareka
Drake Doe wrote:
Current railgun range is too close to medium pulse lasers, which means it'll always apply less damage because of it's lower than pulse tracking.


"Too close"?

HPL Harbinger + 1 scripted TC: 25,8km + 6,5km
250mm Ferox + 1 TE: 97,2km + 15km
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-07-10 19:50:17 UTC
Medium rail fitting needs a serious look.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#25 - 2013-07-10 20:07:18 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
Current railgun range is too close to medium pulse lasers, which means it'll always apply less damage because of it's lower than pulse tracking.


"Too close"?

HPL Harbinger + 1 scripted TC: 25,8km + 6,5km
250mm Ferox + 1 TE: 97,2km + 15km

So railguns should only be used on range bonused hulls, only 3 of which bonus medium hybrid range?

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-07-10 20:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarkelias Anophius
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Pulses have good tracking? Haha... Compared to what?

You can't compare tracking speed of short range turrets vs. long range turrets.


I can when a short range weapon is outclassing a medium range weapon at medium range.


FYI, blasters and autocannons have better tracking than pulse lasers.
Railguns are long range turrets, not medium range. Artillery and beam lasers are medium range turrets compared to railguns.



There is little to no difference in the optimal range of railguns and artillery, not nearly enough to be meaningful.

And sure, a rail ferox can hit to 100km. Outside its lock range. Doing 150 dps. That's incredibly useful.
What about the CN AM range that would actually get used, in which a pulse boat will outperform it every time?
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-07-10 20:26:51 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
So railguns should only be used on range bonused hulls, only 3 of which bonus medium hybrid range?


For lols:
250mm Brutix + 1x scripted T2 TC: 74,5km + 19,5km
HPL Harbinger + 4x scripted officer TCs: 37,1km + 12,8km
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#28 - 2013-07-10 20:35:59 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
So railguns should only be used on range bonused hulls, only 3 of which bonus medium hybrid range?


For lols:
250mm Brutix + 1x scripted T2 TC: 74,5km + 19,5km
HPL Harbinger + 4x scripted officer TCs: 37,1km + 12,8km

While it may have a longer max range, how does it's dps compare using javelin vs scorch?

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-07-10 20:36:33 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
So railguns should only be used on range bonused hulls, only 3 of which bonus medium hybrid range?


For lols:
250mm Brutix + 1x scripted T2 TC: 74,5km + 19,5km
HPL Harbinger + 4x scripted officer TCs: 37,1km + 12,8km



Let me re-emphasize that Spike M is trash and in no way usable when you can fly a naga. I don't care about comparative long-range ammo, I care about usability.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#30 - 2013-07-10 20:50:25 UTC
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Let me re-emphasize that Spike M is trash and in no way usable when you can fly a naga. I don't care about comparative long-range ammo, I care about usability.


Guess what?
Zealot, Omen < Oracle
Sarkelias Anophius
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-07-10 20:56:00 UTC
Tobias Hareka wrote:
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
Let me re-emphasize that Spike M is trash and in no way usable when you can fly a naga. I don't care about comparative long-range ammo, I care about usability.


Guess what?
Zealot, Omen < Oracle


Until you want a gang that tanks like a ***** and deals excellent applied damage at 40km. Then there is no substitute for pulse Zealots.
You appear to be missing the point that medium rails are outclassed by everything, at everything. This discussion is mostly irrelevant since Rise has already made changes to medium rails in what appears to be a very positive way.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-07-10 21:06:19 UTC
Sarkelias Anophius wrote:
You appear to be missing the point that medium rails are outclassed by everything, at everything. This discussion is mostly irrelevant since Rise has already made changes to medium rails in what appears to be a very positive way.


Medium railguns will do more damage at 50+ km range than medium pulse lasers.
They already do.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-07-11 19:18:12 UTC
Rails should have their own ammo independant of blasters. They should not have range modifiers just tracking and energy. The highest damage ammo should have the lowest tracking and the lowest damage ammo should have the highest tracking.

The point of rails is range. With a change like this there would be an area at range with the highest damage projection. The closer you get to your target the less damage you'll take. As of now the highest damage area for medium rails is too close to the ship to be effective against other weapon systems. If antimatter was effective at the base optimal of the rail gun itself then things would be in a good place.

From a realism point of view you can think of it like this: Rail guns accelerate mass at a target. The more mass you shoot at them the more damage you do (assuming the acceleration remains constant). The larger the mass of the ammo the more centrifigul resistance you'll have when turning your turret and keeping it stable. Also the more mass you fire the more energy it requires to accelerate the ammo at the constant speed. So heavy ammo does more damage but lightweight ammo can track better and they use different amounts of energy.

Also you could use this as a good time to remove thermal damage from rails because it really doesn't make sense. It should be all kinetic. Also blasters should really be EM+Thermal since you're turning the charge into a mass of plasma.
Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-07-11 19:26:42 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Rails should have their own ammo independant of blasters. They should not have range modifiers just tracking and energy. The highest damage ammo should have the lowest tracking and the lowest damage ammo should have the highest tracking.

The point of rails is range. With a change like this there would be an area at range with the highest damage projection. The closer you get to your target the less damage you'll take. As of now the highest damage area for medium rails is too close to the ship to be effective against other weapon systems. If antimatter was effective at the base optimal of the rail gun itself then things would be in a good place.

From a realism point of view you can think of it like this: Rail guns accelerate mass at a target. The more mass you shoot at them the more damage you do (assuming the acceleration remains constant). The larger the mass of the ammo the more centrifigul resistance you'll have when turning your turret and keeping it stable. Also the more mass you fire the more energy it requires to accelerate the ammo at the constant speed. So heavy ammo does more damage but lightweight ammo can track better and they use different amounts of energy.

Also you could use this as a good time to remove thermal damage from rails because it really doesn't make sense. It should be all kinetic. Also blasters should really be EM+Thermal since you're turning the charge into a mass of plasma.


You just made beams and artillery useless.
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