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trading bots in jita are increasing - make orders with CAPTCHA - get rid of them
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Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#61 - 2013-06-23 22:51:08 UTC
Captcha is a terrible solution. It imposes a cost on everyone doing market transactions manually, and is very easy for automators to script around.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#62 - 2013-06-23 23:08:04 UTC
Alua Oresson wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
7of Six wrote:
one little captcha per hour or 30min... what a big work...

Bots can solve CAPTCHAs. What they do is send them to a service organization in a third world contry that, for a very small fee, solves it for the bot. The guy who writes and sells the bot program would have to write the use of the service into the bot program, and after that every bot will just automatically solve every CAPTCHA. But us real players will be stuck with them, even as they do nothing to stop the bots.

Remember: A bot can drive a rover on Mars. A bot is world chess champion. Goggle has bots driving cars in traffic. A bot is world Jepardy champion. Bots have become very, very capable. You do not stop them by changing the game. You stop them by detecting their existence and banning them.


$0.05 per 1000 solves...

Im shocked. I knew this existed, but never actually looked into it in detail. I thought it was many many times higher.

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Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#63 - 2013-06-23 23:16:35 UTC
Mytai Gengod wrote:
Assuming trading bots are as invasive as OP claims (I don't know if that is the case), I am for any changes that reduce or eliminate them. Except those changes that have a negative effect on real players like CAPTCHA would.

I detest CAPTCHAs.

Im not sure how prevalent they are, but once several years ago several traders started threads in Market discussions about how trading in Jita was suddenly easier. Eventually CCP chimed in: They had banned 10 Jita trading bot accounts.

10.

And it was a noticeable improvement to all the real players.

BTW, no one runs a bot 23/7 anymore. Its a sure way to get banned. What they do is run it for the hours that simulate a real player. And if they are doing that, then the real player could be there. Not playing, but doing bills, housework, or on eve but a different account. Then if a CAPTCHA pops up the bot sounds an alarm and the real player solves it.

Its just not a solution. We need something else.

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S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#64 - 2013-06-23 23:26:26 UTC  |  Edited by: S Byerley
Vincent Athena wrote:
Alua Oresson wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:
7of Six wrote:
one little captcha per hour or 30min... what a big work...

Bots can solve CAPTCHAs. What they do is send them to a service organization in a third world contry that, for a very small fee, solves it for the bot. The guy who writes and sells the bot program would have to write the use of the service into the bot program, and after that every bot will just automatically solve every CAPTCHA. But us real players will be stuck with them, even as they do nothing to stop the bots.

Remember: A bot can drive a rover on Mars. A bot is world chess champion. Goggle has bots driving cars in traffic. A bot is world Jepardy champion. Bots have become very, very capable. You do not stop them by changing the game. You stop them by detecting their existence and banning them.


$0.05 per 1000 solves...

Im shocked. I knew this existed, but never actually looked into it in detail. I thought it was many many times higher.


It is; going rate is ~$1 to $1.50 per 1k even in bulk. You'd have to be making ~53m per 1k for the bot to break even (not counting account upkeep)
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2013-06-24 00:16:26 UTC
Posting preteding captcha will do anything but annoy legit players.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Illest Insurrectionist
Sparta.
#66 - 2013-06-24 01:34:27 UTC
Ehehe.

I support this 100%.
Anubis Joringer
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2013-06-24 02:26:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Anubis Joringer
This will do nothing to combat bots and serve only to cause massive outrage and aneurysms among about everyone involved. For this reason I support it completely.
Adunh Slavy
#68 - 2013-06-24 02:29:14 UTC
Captcha won't work with Eve's client/server architecture. It works on web pages because the web page just sends graphics to the client with the client having no idea how the names of the graphic images are related to the data on the server.

On Eve, all one would need to do is shim and create a table. CCP would have to come up with a daily set of new graphics and create an inventory of new and random letters/numbers to show a user. But all the while this information will be easily determined by the shim.

So it's a bad idea, it'll just hurt players who don't write shims to cheat in video games.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#69 - 2013-06-24 03:57:29 UTC
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Captcha won't work with Eve's client/server architecture. It works on web pages because the web page just sends graphics to the client with the client having no idea how the names of the graphic images are related to the data on the server.

On Eve, all one would need to do is shim and create a table. CCP would have to come up with a daily set of new graphics and create an inventory of new and random letters/numbers to show a user. But all the while this information will be easily determined by the shim.

So it's a bad idea, it'll just hurt players who don't write shims to cheat in video games.


You have.... absolutely, no idea what you're talking about.

Case in point: Eve has a web browser in it.
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#70 - 2013-06-24 04:01:08 UTC
Hahahaha, that would kill the trading profession. In the pre/post patch week I have days where I do 500+ market updates. Which at 5 seconds per captcha, would add 40 minutes of filling out captchas. No thanks... let's just say I'd be unsubbing a few regional trade accounts.

The only people who would profit would be the trade bots with Captcha cracking, which would be implemented within 24 hours of the patch hitting the test server.
Adunh Slavy
#71 - 2013-06-25 02:42:11 UTC
S Byerley wrote:

Case in point: Eve has a web browser in it.



You think CCP is going to change the market interface to work via the IGB do ya?

You == cluless

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2013-06-25 02:47:56 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
We pay broker fees, why can't we set a range of sell/buy prices for our item and have the broker automatically adjust it as the market fluctuates? This would be a good quality of life improvement as it nearly eliminates manual .01 isking and as a consequence makes market bots nearly useless.

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Gealbhan
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-06-25 03:24:06 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
7of Six wrote:
hi

get rid of all trandig bots very easily

if you wanna make or change an order - a CAPTCHA of 2-3 letters appears and you can make/change orders for a period of time (maybe 30min). After that a new captcha appears. One second more work in 30min and ccp can save a lot of money pay people to hunting bots und all traders are free of bots...



*Bronies are the worst thing to ever happen to the internet



I fixed that for you. Arrow
Do Lock
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#74 - 2013-06-28 05:55:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Do Lock
I developed yesterday a small tool helping me to clean the Jita chat from spammers. It's still in beta state, please don't expect to much. Smile

http://www.chatassin.com
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-06-28 06:28:05 UTC
Easy way to clean up the spam is what Blizzard did in WoW, introduce a chat delay. In Jita set it for like 15 seconds.

Elegant solution, yet still allows people asking questions and what not to still use chat.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#76 - 2013-06-28 09:03:22 UTC  |  Edited by: S Byerley
Adunh Slavy wrote:
S Byerley wrote:

Case in point: Eve has a web browser in it.



You think CCP is going to change the market interface to work via the IGB do ya?

You == cluless


The browser already has hooks, and in any case dynamic images are trivial to implement.

You == trying too hard
Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
#77 - 2013-06-28 20:48:34 UTC
Someone more worthy than I once wrote "Popular music becomes unbearable when one reaches the age of 30"

I would like to say something similar: Captcha becomes unreadable when one reaches the age of 50.

If Captcha is ever the answer then it must have been a bloody stupid question.

Pam:  I wonder what my name means in Welsh?Nessa: Why?
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#78 - 2013-06-28 22:18:12 UTC
I love how this thread has started a capcha debate instead of realizing that this is yet another stealth 'Jita is too crowded, CCP Y U NO FIX JITA WAAAAAAAAAAA' thread.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Jigster
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-06-28 22:22:22 UTC
Knights Armament wrote:
7of Six wrote:
hi

get rid of all trandig bots very easily

if you wanna make or change an order - a CAPTCHA of 2-3 letters appears and you can make/change orders for a period of time (maybe 30min). After that a new captcha appears. One second more work in 30min and ccp can save a lot of money pay people to hunting bots und all traders are free of bots...



captcha is the worst thing to ever happen to the internet



this, now get out.
Kraal Utrecht
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#80 - 2013-06-29 06:06:23 UTC
I am not a trader at all and captcha sound just stupid to me...

I would not mind built in npc-trader-like thing that would operate within some boundaries and that would be available to all and active while account is active. Unavailable on trail acc naturally.
It could be simple - start this "npc-trader" - account goes off the local counter so System would not be so crowded alto all those ppl would still be in Jita.
Player should make adjustments to this npc-trader without leaving npc-trader mode to not go back and forth normal Local counter.
It would be like normal counter of all active ppl (normal limit here like till now) PLUS all those who are running this npc-trader (unlimited). So Local (limited like now) + traders (unlimited or much higher limit) counter.

This (if properly made) would drastically lower demand for bots and would lower effective crowd in Local.

---
It is not about fighting bots. It is about make their profit questionable in comparison to risk taken.
Now:
(profit from using bot) / (risk taken) >> (no bots)
We need:
(profit from using bot) / (risk taken) = or < (in-game tools plus limited attention)