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Skill-Time for Plex

First post First post
Author
Dorion Strag
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2013-06-25 02:45:10 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
hey all good honestly, i just say what i experience as new player, maybe it helps maybe not... but its extreme how some veterans react, it feels a bit grim...

I keep saying this every time this topic is brought up, but it's really a matter of inflation. That is why I dont want this in the game.

every time a player passes the 100 million SP mark the value of every other player past the 100 million SP mark goes down just a little bit. This is how buying SP for a character (in any form) is different than the character market.

Picture this:

you have a one of a kind Rembrandt paining, worth millions, then someone finds in a cave somewhere 200 other paintings like yours by Rembrandt. Now your painting isnt worth half as much as it was.

Even though you havent lost anything technically, youldnt you be a bit upset?

This, this right here. Ignore all the bittervets crying about pay to win because this man knows whats going on. That said I still don't think its a clear cut case but it gives us the actual issue. What is better for the EvE comunity as a whole, the value of the high SP characters and the players that may leave if that value was lost or the ability for new characters to catch up to the rest and the potential new players it may bring? This is the real question that needs to be answered.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#122 - 2013-06-25 03:07:05 UTC
Dorion Strag wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
hey all good honestly, i just say what i experience as new player, maybe it helps maybe not... but its extreme how some veterans react, it feels a bit grim...

I keep saying this every time this topic is brought up, but it's really a matter of inflation. That is why I dont want this in the game.

every time a player passes the 100 million SP mark the value of every other player past the 100 million SP mark goes down just a little bit. This is how buying SP for a character (in any form) is different than the character market.

Picture this:

you have a one of a kind Rembrandt paining, worth millions, then someone finds in a cave somewhere 200 other paintings like yours by Rembrandt. Now your painting isnt worth half as much as it was.

Even though you havent lost anything technically, youldnt you be a bit upset?

This, this right here. Ignore all the bittervets crying about pay to win because this man knows whats going on. That said I still don't think its a clear cut case but it gives us the actual issue. What is better for the EvE comunity as a whole, the value of the high SP characters and the players that may leave if that value was lost or the ability for new characters to catch up to the rest and the potential new players it may bring? This is the real question that needs to be answered.



But there is no 'catching up' in EVE...

I have 76 million SP. If I am flying a Jaguar, only a fraction of that is relevant. A two month newbie in a jaguar may well have more SP in use right then than I do, that's the closest you get to catching up.

You speak of potential new players being lured in by the prospect of spending literally thousands of dollars to get to the same SP level as someone like me. Be honest here, how many do you think we'd actually get? two? three? And how many would unsub?

It would be a HELL of a lot more than we gained.
Drake Aihaken
CODE.d
#123 - 2013-06-25 05:03:05 UTC
Harry Forever wrote:
the only thing old players want to do here, is to limit the possibility of the new, you think that is your playground and want to keep it that way, I say you should not fear new players to become better then you, you should see it as advantage to make the game more challanging for veterans


Of course. The thought of actually (shudder) having to pay from time to time is not something the elitist mentality wants to even remotely entertain.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#124 - 2013-06-25 05:16:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Azrael Dinn
Zappity wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Mag's wrote:
I like it, but with the following restrictions.

Only one plex per 30 days.

You can only buy the lowest attribute skilled SP amount that would occur over 30 days.

Say for example primary att, 17, secondary att, 21. Sp per hour 1650. Meaning you get 1,188,000 sp per plex.
When you apply the SP, it takes the full 30 days to integrate with your character sheet. You must pause any current training, in order for the integration to take place.
Once started, no other changes to the character sheet are allowed until complete.


But you can restart normal training after the 'integration' has started?

Have to admit that I don't understand the problem with plex for SP as lo as there are sensible restrictions like quoted above. You can already buy a character so what's the problem?
No, you cannot restart normal training. For the intergration to work, normal training needs to be paused throughout the process. Hence why I said no other changes to the character sheet were allowed, until complete.


Well then I don't understand your proposal. You might as well just buy a normal 30 day plex and train as per usual.


Thats because Mag's thinks it's game breaking to get SP faster.

I have to say that I personaly see potential in the first idea that you could boost training somehow but in the end this is again a PLEX thing and it's starting to look like use PLEX for this and that and there and here and you get all kinds of usefull things. Now I'm not totaly against the idea of P2W but there is a verry verry fine line that should not be crossed cause then the game will break and then you just need to pay just to get something done and thats not what eve is about.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2013-06-25 07:03:02 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
Regardless of how pay to win the bazaar might seem, it's offset by the fact that someone had to put both time and money into creating that character and now they're seeking to sell their finished product. Without the time factor, everyone would be in the Fotm without even the slightest delay during, which would usually be offset by a balance pass, but this way everyone is instantly in the most unbalanced ship. And if you couldn't tell, that can easily kill a game.

Edit: got a bit off topic.

Eh you can buy any flavor of the month character. All the person had to do was log on and change skills. Nothing else. Its identical to the old ebay sales of chars. You pay to skip training time. Pay to buy isk via plex. Its already pay to win. You can skip the entire game and play it like counter strike. Get blown up respawn, buy more ships n mods with visa, mastercard or paypal.


CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#126 - 2013-06-25 07:55:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
Sigras wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
hey all good honestly, i just say what i experience as new player, maybe it helps maybe not... but its extreme how some veterans react, it feels a bit grim...

I keep saying this every time this topic is brought up, but it's really a matter of inflation. That is why I dont want this in the game.

every time a player passes the 100 million SP mark the value of every other player past the 100 million SP mark goes down just a little bit. This is how buying SP for a character (in any form) is different than the character market.

Picture this:

you have a one of a kind Rembrandt paining, worth millions, then someone finds in a cave somewhere 200 other paintings like yours by Rembrandt. Now your painting isnt worth half as much as it was.

Even though you havent lost anything technically, youldnt you be a bit upset?


what if you could buy only 2 month of SP a year, one after each new expansion is launched, this would give an additional motivation to play every 6 month, good for gamers good for CCP, please note just optional, you do not need to buy it if you do not want it
Yeep
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2013-06-25 09:52:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Yeep
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Eh you can buy any flavor of the month character. All the person had to do was log on and change skills. Nothing else. Its identical to the old ebay sales of chars. You pay to skip training time. Pay to buy isk via plex. Its already pay to win. You can skip the entire game and play it like counter strike. Get blown up respawn, buy more ships n mods with visa, mastercard or paypal.


But somebody had to either predict the future FotM or train their character suboptimally. This limits the number of characters available and therefore limits the adoption rate. Its like the difference between buying a PLEX to trade for ISK and buying ISK directly from CCP.

Harry Forever wrote:

what if you could buy only 2 month of SP a year, one after each new expansion is launched, this would give an additional motivation to play every 6 month, good for gamers good for CCP, please note just optional, you do not need to buy it if you do not want it


What if you could trade a PLEX for director roles in any corp of your choice but you could only do it once per year? What about trading a PLEX to instantly destroy one ship of your choice consequence free but you can only do it once per week?

Time limiting a terrible idea doesn't make it less terrible.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#128 - 2013-06-25 10:01:59 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Mag's wrote:
I like it, but with the following restrictions.

Only one plex per 30 days.

You can only buy the lowest attribute skilled SP amount that would occur over 30 days.

Say for example primary att, 17, secondary att, 21. Sp per hour 1650. Meaning you get 1,188,000 sp per plex.
When you apply the SP, it takes the full 30 days to integrate with your character sheet. You must pause any current training, in order for the integration to take place.
Once started, no other changes to the character sheet are allowed until complete.


But you can restart normal training after the 'integration' has started?

Have to admit that I don't understand the problem with plex for SP as lo as there are sensible restrictions like quoted above. You can already buy a character so what's the problem?
No, you cannot restart normal training. For the intergration to work, normal training needs to be paused throughout the process. Hence why I said no other changes to the character sheet were allowed, until complete.


Well then I don't understand your proposal. You might as well just buy a normal 30 day plex and train as per usual.
Bingo.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Beckett Firesnake
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2013-06-25 10:23:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Beckett Firesnake
I can understand the fact that is quite frustrative to have to wait for months before being able to fly the ship you would love to.
But if it would be possible to pay Skill Points with Plexes, big farmers would be able to have a 200M SP character in few months.
The number of these type of characters would explode.
You must understand that buying a already high skilled character do not increase the number of highskilled characters.
What would make the difference between a veteran that began Eve 10 years ago and a Nerd that farm 24/24 or a player with a big real life purse?
Do not forget there is no class in Eve. A character with enough SP is virtually capable to do anything. So the only barrier is the time you had to up your character. It is as if you would be able to buy a Mage/Demonist/Warrior/Thief/Druid at WOW with golds...

Remember the time where there was only 5 characters level 60 on your old WOW server... And look at Ironforge today...

Sorry but this option would simply kill Eve.

I would love though being able to pay a PLEX to have 95% of my actual Skillpoints back. So I would remap my character and erase all the mistakes I made in the past years.
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#130 - 2013-06-25 11:46:34 UTC
Well lets also be honest that the way CCP is starting to think about these things are way different that the ways the realy old people think.

Dual char training was one of those things that most of the vets think was game breaking and after they did it well no one cares anymore. So I would say that if a buy few sp with plex would be implemented somewho... no one would actualy care besides the small amount of nerds that just cant think of anything else except their own little nerdy kingdoms.

I could see it that faster training would actualy get more poeple into the game which much better for eve than having a small number of bitter old veterans.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#131 - 2013-06-25 11:46:56 UTC
I agree with everyone else in saying buying skill points is a HELL NO! ---> To Character Bazaar if you want to buy skill points

But, with that I always like to voice my opinion on REMOVAL OF UNWANTED SKILLS for PLEX.

CCP should charge a PLEX so that you can clean up your skill sheet of unused or no longer used skills.

I DO NOT want skill points or cost of the skill books reimbursed.

So people will say, that is just OCD, get over it.

My reply is it does not give me any advantage over other people to remove skills I do not want on my skill sheet,

so you can STFU!

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2013-06-25 12:31:41 UTC
Kyt Thrace wrote:
I agree with everyone else in saying buying skill points is a HELL NO! ---> To Character Bazaar if you want to buy skill points

But, with that I always like to voice my opinion on REMOVAL OF UNWANTED SKILLS for PLEX.

CCP should charge a PLEX so that you can clean up your skill sheet of unused or no longer used skills.

I DO NOT want skill points or cost of the skill books reimbursed.

So people will say, that is just OCD, get over it.

My reply is it does not give me any advantage over other people to remove skills I do not want on my skill sheet,

so you can STFU!



(Yes it does, it gives you cheaper clones.)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2013-06-25 13:08:04 UTC
Dorion Strag wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
hey all good honestly, i just say what i experience as new player, maybe it helps maybe not... but its extreme how some veterans react, it feels a bit grim...

I keep saying this every time this topic is brought up, but it's really a matter of inflation. That is why I dont want this in the game.

every time a player passes the 100 million SP mark the value of every other player past the 100 million SP mark goes down just a little bit. This is how buying SP for a character (in any form) is different than the character market.

Picture this:

you have a one of a kind Rembrandt paining, worth millions, then someone finds in a cave somewhere 200 other paintings like yours by Rembrandt. Now your painting isnt worth half as much as it was.

Even though you havent lost anything technically, youldnt you be a bit upset?

This, this right here. Ignore all the bittervets crying about pay to win because this man knows whats going on. That said I still don't think its a clear cut case but it gives us the actual issue. What is better for the EvE comunity as a whole, the value of the high SP characters and the players that may leave if that value was lost or the ability for new characters to catch up to the rest and the potential new players it may bring? This is the real question that needs to be answered.

No the actual issue is new players can skip up to 10 years of training by paying real life cash as well as fund any losses by paying cash. Pretend all you like but thats pay to win.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#134 - 2013-06-25 13:38:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Azrael Dinn
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dorion Strag wrote:
Sigras wrote:
[quote=Harry Forever]...

....

No the actual issue is new players can skip up to 10 years of training by paying real life cash as well as fund any losses by paying cash. Pretend all you like but thats pay to win.


So what if they get sp faster. They might even like the game and the old players would also have the opportunity to get sp faster.

All I see in these posts are the cries of nerds who sell chars and want to keep their elite way of gameplay.

In the end it realy is better to get new players to the game and with the current way eve is, it's way too hard for people to start playing the game and the skill system is the base of that problem. No one wants to wait half a year to get get a shiny ship with tech 2 equipment and drones and camoflouge.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Mag's
Azn Empire
#135 - 2013-06-25 14:06:55 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Well lets also be honest that the way CCP is starting to think about these things are way different that the ways the realy old people think.

Dual char training was one of those things that most of the vets think was game breaking and after they did it well no one cares anymore. So I would say that if a buy few sp with plex would be implemented somewho... no one would actualy care besides the small amount of nerds that just cant think of anything else except their own little nerdy kingdoms.

I could see it that faster training would actualy get more poeple into the game which much better for eve than having a small number of bitter old veterans.
I wasn't against dual training because I disagreed with it per se. I simply said in those threads that why would some pay the same, to get less? I can see and I do agree it fills a small niche of training situations and that's all good. But financially it's only suited to those small periods of time. 3 months max IIRC, per char.

My main concern and as I predicted it would happen, is the claims of some it should some how be cheaper than a second account. I strongly disagree with this. If you want cheaper, then get a second account for a years sub. The dual training isn't there to replace that system, only to compliment it.

The buying of SP on the other hand, doesn't even come close to that. It's straight forward bypassing of Eve mechanics and for why? What does it solve? If anything is covered by Malcanis law, this most certainly is.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2013-06-25 17:02:12 UTC
Dorion Strag wrote:
What is better for the EvE comunity as a whole, the value of the high SP characters and the players that may leave if that value was lost or the ability for new characters to catch up to the rest and the potential new players it may bring? This is the real question that needs to be answered.


No, it isn't. It's a strawman created by the false assumption that your total number of skill points somehow matters at any point during actual game play.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#137 - 2013-06-26 06:25:27 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Azrael Dinn wrote:
...

...
The buying of SP on the other hand, doesn't even come close to that. It's straight forward bypassing of Eve mechanics and for why? What does it solve? If anything is covered by Malcanis law, this most certainly is.


I still think that even both the older players and the new players do have the same option to "buy sp" (well i would not let them have it straight away if it would be up to me) the benefits for new players would be much greater than the benefits for the older players.

Yes the older players would max more skills up but the new players could get their first chars to a "equal" level faster. This is because the older chars already poses the skills they need and they are specializing more to different things. The newer players are aiming for one thing what the older players have reached already. And this is why I think this would be better for newer players. It is just so damn difficult to start playing this game and the skill system one of the main reasons people wont want to start to play the game.

Am I making any sense? Lol

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

PopeUrban
El Expedicion
Flames of Exile
#138 - 2013-06-26 06:34:51 UTC
Problem with this idea:

You don't simply materialize skillpoints when you guy a character from someone, just like you don't materialize ISK when you sell a PLEX.

Someone had to earn that ISK, and someone had to earn those skillpoints. When you buy them you're not disrupting the economy because you're not creating resources from thin air with money. Allowing you to just plain buy skillpoints creates experience, which is measured mechanically in EVE by time, outside of the loop.

PLEX ISK isn't magic. You're effectively paying someone real money to farm for you. When you buy a character you're paying someone isk to babysit EVEmon for you retroactively. You're not creating an all fives titan pilot or industial whiz from scratch. Someone actually had to skill that character in the exact same manner as you have to skill it, and when you buy it, they lose it.

Buying skill points for PLEX removes the loss from the equation, and has dire effects on espionage and specialization in EVE.
StoneCold
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
#139 - 2013-06-26 06:34:59 UTC  |  Edited by: StoneCold
Only read the 1st post.

The idea was there like 1000 times allready. It´s bad. Nope, its even terrible. Maybe even terribad.
NO.

If you want plex-for-skilltime -> char bazaar this way.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#140 - 2013-06-26 07:47:07 UTC
StoneCold wrote:
Only read the 1st post.

The idea was there like 1000 times allready. It´s bad. Nope, its even terrible. Maybe even terribad.
NO.

If you want plex-for-skilltime -> char bazaar this way.


when it was there a 1000 times, then maybe because there is an issue, no?