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"Eve is a game driven by consequences for actions." Not if you're into suicide ganking
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Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#201 - 2011-10-24 18:19:17 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Consequences are imaginary

I could post several real life events when thousands of people died and show the idea but i chose not to, since many are not prepared to face the truth.

Because Eve is just like real life you see
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
Ronin Reloaded
#202 - 2011-10-24 18:24:01 UTC
Suddenly Boom wrote:
Berendas wrote:


Also, I do have to say that is a hilarious name for a suicide alt.


Thanks, just sitting there, mining away, chilling, suddenly boom! In more ways than one.


+1
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#203 - 2011-10-24 18:26:01 UTC
David Cedarbridge wrote:

I'd trust Weaslior with my sister.


oh goodie

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#204 - 2011-10-24 18:27:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Avril Dewar wrote:
I'm going to have to follow your own rhetorical tactic here and ask you to demonstrate that this would be optimal for the game as a whole.
It wouldn't. But I would enjoy it more if I got back that slight fear of open space I had back when I started, not being fully knowledgeable of the rules and the risks, but having learned enough to know that someone could just blow me out of the sky for no particular reason.

The Jita 4-4 undocking ramp was the stuff of (murderous) legends… ♥♥♥
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#205 - 2011-10-24 18:27:17 UTC
ALoneHobo wrote:
To those supporting the current mechanics:

Do you genuinely think they are perfect and that in this one area CCP have amazingly hit on the perfectly balanced formula that eludes them in every other area of the game? Is there nothing at all that you think should be changed about this system? No nuances, details, or tweaks that could improve balance?


yes chages would be good, ganking should be made easier

fortunately ccp has seen the righteousness of our cause and rewarded us with the tornado

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#206 - 2011-10-24 18:37:28 UTC
Avril Dewar wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Is there nothing at all that you think should be changed about this system? No nuances, details, or tweaks that could improve balance?
Sure. Ganking could be made a lot easier so as to make space travel more interesting.


I'm going to have to follow your own rhetorical tactic here and ask you to demonstrate that this would be optimal for the game as a whole. If you are unable to back this up with hard data and numbers (as you demand from those who suggest changes in the other direction) you will only have revealed your bias on this issue and laid bare the impossibility of discussing it rationally with you.


Hay... I'll bite...

I argue that EvE right now is almost perfectly safe. It's almost impossible to get killed, particularly if your main objective is moving stuff around or traveling. I roam space without consequence, and I'll tell you how:

Rules:

  • Never Fly AFK (autopilot)
  • Use a scout in empire and low sec (don't even need it in null if following methods below
  • Own your corp, start an alliance


HowTo:

  • Empire - Jump freighters have around 2x the HP of regular freighters... you can even AFK/autopilot in empire and are relatively safe from even a large suicide ganking fleet. My hauler alts only fly freighters and jump freighters in empire.
  • LowSec - There are several types of ship almost totally invulnerable here. Shuttles and covops are obvious, b/c of fast warp and ability to warp cloaked. Blockade runners can warp cloaked and are also very quick to warp. No remotely competent pilot is at any risk flying these in lowsec. The nullSec methods work just as well here too.
  • NullSec - Got a lot of stuff to move? Use a jump freighter. You go from empire to null, station to station, and never even get close to being outside of docking range. Jump freighters are invulnerable in this way. Personally, when I'm just shooting around null checking out who's up to what or ninja looting or scamming or whatever, I often fly a Tengu w/ a covert reconfiguration, interdiction nullifier, and stabs. You just can't catch it. Bubble camps, huge ultra mega uber-camps, ...makes no difference. I blow through them all the time. You simply can't catch that.
  • WarDecs - well they just changed the rules here, but now you can drop alliance and move in between alliances with your whole corp to avoid WarDecs. No threat there. WarDecs are inherently broken.


So no... you aren't at risk right now. EvE is safe. When I see huge bubble camps or have a hostile fleet in the area... all I see are sparkle ponies everywhere.

Some of you are complaining about too many risks... I don't get it. I don't see any. At all.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#207 - 2011-10-24 18:42:09 UTC
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Consequences are imaginary

I could post several real life events when thousands of people died and show the idea but i chose not to, since many are not prepared to face the truth.

Because Eve is just like real life you see


Is it not? You can detach yourself from being "human" in game you can just adapt to enviroment but you are still bound to yourself and to the creature inside you which has been created by society.

EVE is actually perfect simulator of what will happen if ......
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#208 - 2011-10-24 18:50:19 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Consequences are imaginary

I could post several real life events when thousands of people died and show the idea but i chose not to, since many are not prepared to face the truth.

Because Eve is just like real life you see


Is it not? You can detach yourself from being "human" in game you can just adapt to enviroment but you are still bound to yourself and to the creature inside you which has been created by society.

EVE is actually perfect simulator of what will happen if ......

lol you're a loon
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#209 - 2011-10-24 18:52:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Consequences are imaginary

I could post several real life events when thousands of people died and show the idea but i chose not to, since many are not prepared to face the truth.

Because Eve is just like real life you see


Is it not? You can detach yourself from being "human" in game you can just adapt to enviroment but you are still bound to yourself and to the creature inside you which has been created by society.

EVE is actually perfect simulator of what will happen if ......

lol you're a loon


Thanks i guess.

I take it as an compliment.

I am just Insane, or i am the only sane left. Depend
DeliciousHamBeast
The Elenianlightenment
#210 - 2011-10-24 18:52:50 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
...

Because Eve is just like real life you see


Is it not? You can detach yourself from being "human" in game you can just adapt to enviroment but you are still bound to yourself and to the creature inside you which has been created by society.

EVE is actually perfect simulator of what will happen if ......


You sound kinda like a crazy person, but that might be the 'creature inside me' speaking.

To chime in on the suicide gack stuff, highsec is incredibly safe, but it's "High Security" not "Weird space where everyone is invulnerable and hold hands". If you're worried about being ganked, fit a bloody tank on your ship - or at least pay attention. People with bad security status show up in local, and get announced across the entire system.

-- Beep Beep Imma Jeep.
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#211 - 2011-10-24 18:53:36 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
I take it as an compliment.

Oh it was
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#212 - 2011-10-24 19:02:01 UTC
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Skunk Gracklaw wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Consequences are imaginary

I could post several real life events when thousands of people died and show the idea but i chose not to, since many are not prepared to face the truth.

Because Eve is just like real life you see


Is it not? You can detach yourself from being "human" in game you can just adapt to enviroment but you are still bound to yourself and to the creature inside you which has been created by society.

EVE is actually perfect simulator of what will happen if ......

lol you're a loon




Have to agree with Skunk there, never thought that would happen.
Arthur Frayn
V.O.F.L IRON CORE
#213 - 2011-10-24 19:38:29 UTC
Thinking you can tank a Hulk against suicide ganks and be effective is a ridiculous notion. The solution for miners is incredibly simple. Go back to using Covetors and make the insurance payouts work for you every time you get ganked. Covetors are dirt cheap to build and they mine almost as much as a hulk, especially if you have an Orca boost.
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#214 - 2011-10-24 20:01:13 UTC
Arthur Frayn wrote:
Thinking you can tank a Hulk against suicide ganks and be effective is a ridiculous notion. The solution for miners is incredibly simple. Go back to using Covetors and make the insurance payouts work for you every time you get ganked. Covetors are dirt cheap to build and they mine almost as much as a hulk, especially if you have an Orca boost.




I've tanked a Covertor and Hulk before, although it was only one suicide guy on both occassions. Both times survived. Survive two volleys of their weapons and you maybe safe (two volleys was all they managed to fire both times). But then I never used to fit mining mods, just make them harder to crack.

Probably depends how good they're and what they're using. But you don't hang around after the attack as you need to repair.
Trainwreck McGee
Doomheim
#215 - 2011-10-24 20:05:23 UTC
first fo all I dont gank people b/c its boring but.........

JOIN A GOD DAMN CORP GET SOME GOD DAMN BACK UP OR GO PLAY FARMVILLE.

that is all

CCP Trainwreck - Weekend Custodial Engineer / CCP Necrogoats foot stool
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#216 - 2011-10-24 20:09:20 UTC
Trainwreck McGee wrote:
first fo all I dont gank people b/c its boring but.........

JOIN A GOD DAMN CORP GET SOME GOD DAMN BACK UP OR GO PLAY FARMVILLE.

that is all



Farmville is that a good game? I guess it might be as you're recommending it.
Christine Cagney
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#217 - 2011-10-24 20:52:44 UTC
No one is going to use the $1000 pair of Jeans analogy? Question

Ok, fine, then I will.P

Let’s say your set to play a game of Rugby with a group of particularly tough and nasty players, and you just happen to be wearing a $1000 shirt. You are completely aware that during the course of the game the shirt will get ripped, muddy and even bloody, but you play in the game anyway wearing your fine and fancy $1000 shirt.

Now, the market value of the shirt is $1000, however, to you the Rugby player, the shirt is absolutely worthless, it has lost any and all of its value.

If someone were to stop you, while you were walking out into the field and remind you that you’re wearing a $1000shirt and that you are putting it at Risk, because the shirt is of no value to you, you might respond by saying; “There’s no Risk at all.”

This is the situation that the Suicide Gankers of EVE exploit for its Rhetorical value.
Whenever a player points out that the Suicide Gankers face no Risk whatsoever, the Suicide Gankers respond by saying: “Sure, I face risk, my ships and mods cost money too, you know.”

And apparently, everyone forgets, that the Suicide Ganker consciously decided to throw those items (ships and mods) away because they had absolutely no value to him whatsoever.
For the player who got ganked while in his 200million+ Hulk, with mods, his ship was of inestimably value to him, it was his Life-Blood in the game

The Suicide Ganker does NOT risk anything of ‘inestimable’ value to himself. While the person ganked loses something of inestimable value, which no doubt cost him a lot of hard work. This equation is not balanced.

The equation will not be balanced until the Suicide Ganker is made to risk something of inestimable value to his/her self in order to or as a potential consequence of Ganking someone else.

Doesn’t matter what the Market value of an item is, if the person/owner is willing to throw it away that makes the item worthless.

The word “Suicide” means, the Self it worthless.
Tanya Fox
Doomheim
#218 - 2011-10-24 21:01:59 UTC
Christine Cagney wrote:
No one is going to use the $1000 pair of Jeans analogy? Question

Ok, fine, then I will.P

Let’s say your set to play a game of Rugby with a group of particularly tough and nasty players, and you just happen to be wearing a $1000 shirt. You are completely aware that during the course of the game the shirt will get ripped, muddy and even bloody, but you play in the game anyway wearing your fine and fancy $1000 shirt.

Now, the market value of the shirt is $1000, however, to you the Rugby player, the shirt is absolutely worthless, it has lost any and all of its value.

If someone were to stop you, while you were walking out into the field and remind you that you’re wearing a $1000shirt and that you are putting it at Risk, because the shirt is of no value to you, you might respond by saying; “There’s no Risk at all.”

This is the situation that the Suicide Gankers of EVE exploit for its Rhetorical value.
Whenever a player points out that the Suicide Gankers face no Risk whatsoever, the Suicide Gankers respond by saying: “Sure, I face risk, my ships and mods cost money too, you know.”

And apparently, everyone forgets, that the Suicide Ganker consciously decided to throw those items (ships and mods) away because they had absolutely no value to him whatsoever.
For the player who got ganked while in his 200million+ Hulk, with mods, his ship was of inestimably value to him, it was his Life-Blood in the game

The Suicide Ganker does NOT risk anything of ‘inestimable’ value to himself. While the person ganked loses something of inestimable value, which no doubt cost him a lot of hard work. This equation is not balanced.

The equation will not be balanced until the Suicide Ganker is made to risk something of inestimable value to his/her self in order to or as a potential consequence of Ganking someone else.

Doesn’t matter what the Market value of an item is, if the person/owner is willing to throw it away that makes the item worthless.

The word “Suicide” means, the Self it worthless.






Actually watching a suicider get blown up by Concord whilst your Hulk/Covetor is still intact is priceless.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#219 - 2011-10-24 21:05:22 UTC
Christine Cagney wrote:
The word “Suicide” means, the Self it worthless.
Congratulations. You just showed that fiddling with insurance will not help ganking victims…

…which, by the way, others have already proposed.
Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#220 - 2011-10-24 21:08:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cpt Fina
Christine Cagney wrote:
No one is going to use the $1000 pair of Jeans analogy? Question


You're confusing value and price.

I might value an apple much less than you because you love apples. But since we can't quantify personal preferences we use market price as a common metric in economics.