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Do Level 4 missions pay too much compared to 1 through 3?

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#861 - 2013-09-08 02:39:19 UTC
Onictus wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
Tippia's numbers: http://blog.beyondreality.se/ISK-faucets-sinks
Quote:
Faucets:
Bounty prizes: 896.34 billion ISK (up from 876.04 billion in 2010).
NPC buy orders: 337.4 billion ISK (n/a for 2010).
Incursion rewards: 301.8 billion ISK (and 4.7 million LP, n/a in 2010).
Insurance payouts: 125.8 billion ISK (up from 111.9 billion ISK in 2010).
Agent mission rewards: 74.68 billion ISK (up from 68.93 billion in 2010).
Agent mission bonuses: 71.21 billion ISK (up from 63.45 billion in 2010)

How much of that isk is made in high, low, and null? And what's the population breakdown by high/low/null? (My google-fu has failed me.)

CCP has said 80/20 high sec to null sec

Highsec, our delightful first world with hotdropping lawenforcement

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#862 - 2013-09-08 02:56:18 UTC
Onictus wrote:

CCP has said 80/20 high sec to null sec

That's a hideously old number (and probably counted empire/null rather than high/null). W-space and lowsec have seen decent increases after their introduction/revitalisation. Last they gave any stats, it was the previously mentioned 65 / 8 / 21 + 6 distribution.

Oh, and i suuppose it's best to point out that this is a count of characters, not players.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#863 - 2013-09-08 02:59:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Onictus wrote:

CCP has said 80/20 high sec to null sec

That's a hideously old number (and probably counted empire/null rather than high/null). W-space and lowsec have seen decent increases after their introduction/revitalisation. Last they gave any stats, it was the previously mentioned 65 / 8 / 21 + 6 distribution.

Oh, and i suuppose it's best to point out that this is a count of characters, not players.

My highsec ganking alts :)

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#864 - 2013-09-08 03:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
And what percentage of population makes a percentage of the income? Just because 80% or 20% of people live somewhere doesn't mean they make exactly 80% to 20% of the income respectivily.

I mean I suspect only a small fraction of the player base runs incursions and they make a larger percentage of the income, but I don't have any data that says that exactly so that could be a wrong hunch.

I'm willing to throw out a bone for a change and talk about this constructively but I want to see official numbers if they exist.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#865 - 2013-09-08 03:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Captain Tardbar wrote:
And what percentage of population makes a percentage of the income? Just because 80% or 20% of people live somewhere doesn't mean they make exactly 80% to 20% of the income respectivily.

I mean I suspect only a small fraction of the player base runs incursions and they make a larger percentage of the income, but I don't have any data that says that exactly so that could be a wrong hunch.

I'm willing to throw out a bone for a change and talk about this constructively but I want to see official numbers if they exist.


They don't exist. The best there is, is the analysis Tippia and Malcanis gave you that shows highsec is putting out more isk from missions than nullsec is from anoms/moons. If you can actually provide a coherent argument to those I will be incredibly surprised and possibly capable of being convinced otherwise of this:

~~~~Highsec is Safe~~~~

E: Because I have to put this moons are not isk faucets, pedants.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#866 - 2013-09-08 03:14:45 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
And what percentage of population makes a percentage of the income? Just because 80% or 20% of people live somewhere doesn't mean they make exactly 80% to 20% of the income respectivily.

I mean I suspect only a small fraction of the player base runs incursions and they make a larger percentage of the income, but I don't have any data that says that exactly so that could be a wrong hunch.

I'm willing to throw out a bone for a change and talk about this constructively but I want to see official numbers if they exist.

They don't exist. The best there is, is the analysis Tippia and Malcanis gave you that shows highsec is putting out more isk from missions than nullsec is from anoms/moons. If you can actually provide a coherent argument to those I will be incredibly surprised and possible capable of being convinced otherwise of this:

~~~~Highsec is Safe~~~~

E: Because I have to put this moons are not isk faucets, pedants.

That isn't good enough, this is your loss nullsec zealot

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#867 - 2013-09-08 03:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
La Nariz wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
And what percentage of population makes a percentage of the income? Just because 80% or 20% of people live somewhere doesn't mean they make exactly 80% to 20% of the income respectivily.

I mean I suspect only a small fraction of the player base runs incursions and they make a larger percentage of the income, but I don't have any data that says that exactly so that could be a wrong hunch.

I'm willing to throw out a bone for a change and talk about this constructively but I want to see official numbers if they exist.


They don't exist. The best there is, is the analysis Tippia and Malcanis gave you that shows highsec is putting out more isk from missions than nullsec is from anoms/moons. If you can actually provide a coherent argument to those I will be incredibly surprised and possible capable of being convinced otherwise of this:

~~~~Highsec is Safe~~~~

E: Because I have to put this moons are not isk faucets, pedants.


I'm roplaying a diplomat and say you could be possibly right, but in order to prove imblance we have to show that people living in a certain area on average make more money than people living elsewhere and lose on average less ships.

If there isn't data on this then fine.

I would like to put forth a compromise saying we as the players don't have enough data to make a real conclusion and the people who have the data and could come up with the right decision would be CCP and that player input on such a balance without the proper data which CCP has decided not to give us would just be bad for the community in general.

[edit]

To be a further diplomat, there would nothing be wrong with telling CCP that you personally feel that there is an imblance, but you should acknowledge that other players do not feel this way and that CCP should not come to a decision based on how many people feel one way or another but rather a deep analysis of the situation using all the resources that they have that we do not.

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#868 - 2013-09-08 03:34:08 UTC
Angeal MacNova wrote:
You can make hi sec pay dirt and the players will just put up with it.

You can give hi sec as much risk as low sec and the players will just find a new game.

The only way you are going to see a flux of people relocate to null is if null becomes just an extension of hi. I think that many people who play in hi are people who either don't have much time to play or simply don't care for pvp (in many cases both). Miners that just want to log in and warp strait from station to belt, mine and then return. Mission runners who want to just accept the mission, warp straight there, complete it, and then warp straight back.

These people don't want to have to be constantly looking over their shoulders. They don't want to be constantly monitoring local. They don't want have to deal with 6 'warp from dock' book marks. Another 6 'view warp gate from safe distance' book marks. They don't want to have to take indirect routes to get from the dock to the gate either just to avoid being pulled out of warp.

Ganking? Sure, it's going to happen. It happens in both null and hi.

You really want to see null become more active? For there to be an infrastructure that rivals hi sec? To have availability of parts/ships at prices comparable to hi? There is one thing people would have to be willing to do and one things CCP would have to do.

The one thing players can do is to not gank people who are obviously pure industrialists.

The one thing CCP can do is allow those who have sov over a system to be able to enforce a minimum 'safety level' on the ships that enter.

If the industrialists can do their thing with the same level of safety in null as they can in hi, I think they would be more than happy to move there and sell their product to the local population. Get enough there and then you get competitive pricing.

As for mission runners, I think they too would eventually move out there once they skill up enough to be able to handle the rats out there.


Where does this madness come from. Not you personally Angeal, just in general. Why does it always devolve into some idea about pushing people out of high sec.

I mean, by a show of hands, how many of us care if high sec people never leave high sec.

*sees no hands what-so-ever*

That's what I thought.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#869 - 2013-09-08 03:51:34 UTC
Quote:
Where does this madness come from. Not you personally Angeal, just in general. Why does it always devolve into some idea about pushing people out of high sec.

I mean, by a show of hands, how many of us care if high sec people never leave high sec.

*sees no hands what-so-ever*

That's what I thought.


I can tell you for one that I truly don't care. Granted, I try to encourage people I encounter to try all varieties of gameplay in EVE, but that's because that's what works for me. I find my targets and accomplish my goals across the breadth of space.

I also do not really know where this "You're just trying to kick me out of highsec!" cry comes from. Less so the usual implication that I am only doing it to increase my wealth of targets.

Now, yes, I do believe (and say so frequently) that a lot of highsec players are playing the game wrong.

But really, if they all actually grew some brains cells to rub together, and figured out how to play, then who would I gank? If anything, my self interest lies exclusively in maintaining the current climate of opaque ignorance on the part of the playerbase at large.

So, yeah, stay in highsec.

(Please note, the above statement does not preclude my position that highsec is too lucrative)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#870 - 2013-09-08 03:57:52 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
And what percentage of population makes a percentage of the income? Just because 80% or 20% of people live somewhere doesn't mean they make exactly 80% to 20% of the income respectivily.

I mean I suspect only a small fraction of the player base runs incursions and they make a larger percentage of the income, but I don't have any data that says that exactly so that could be a wrong hunch.

I'm willing to throw out a bone for a change and talk about this constructively but I want to see official numbers if they exist.


They don't exist. The best there is, is the analysis Tippia and Malcanis gave you that shows highsec is putting out more isk from missions than nullsec is from anoms/moons. If you can actually provide a coherent argument to those I will be incredibly surprised and possible capable of being convinced otherwise of this:

~~~~Highsec is Safe~~~~

E: Because I have to put this moons are not isk faucets, pedants.


I'm roplaying a diplomat and say you could be possibly right, but in order to prove imblance we have to show that people living in a certain area on average make more money than people living elsewhere and lose on average less ships.

If there isn't data on this then fine.

I would like to put forth a compromise saying we as the players don't have enough data to make a real conclusion and the people who have the data and could come up with the right decision would be CCP and that player input on such a balance without the proper data which CCP has decided not to give us would just be bad for the community in general.

[edit]

To be a further diplomat, there would nothing be wrong with telling CCP that you personally feel that there is an imblance, but you should acknowledge that other players do not feel this way and that CCP should not come to a decision based on how many people feel one way or another but rather a deep analysis of the situation using all the resources that they have that we do not.


We've all seen the imbalance, Malcanis, Tippia and a bunch of other knowledgeable people presented the evidence. The highsec people responded with a:

~~~~o7o7o7o7m8m8m8m8~~~~ Highsec Tantrum ~~~~o7o7o7o7m8m8m8m8~~~~

.

There is enough evidence, how about you post a coherent argument against the idea that highsec needs to be balanced? Why exactly should highsec be allowed to have larger, safer reward than nullsec? Why should CCP intentionally not improve their product, by balancing it? Why would losing a minority of people who threaten violence over name calling on the internet be a concern? I argue that it is not a concern because the shenanigans happening in nullsec will provide enough free advertising for CCP and EVE becoming a good product will turn those new trials generated by the advertising into recurring subscriptions.



Also to further be a diplomat you should edit your sig to a pro-nullsec signature, its a good olive branch to extend.

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#871 - 2013-09-08 04:02:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
Where does this madness come from. Not you personally Angeal, just in general. Why does it always devolve into some idea about pushing people out of high sec.

I mean, by a show of hands, how many of us care if high sec people never leave high sec.

*sees no hands what-so-ever*

That's what I thought.


I can tell you for one that I truly don't care. Granted, I try to encourage people I encounter to try all varieties of gameplay in EVE, but that's because that's what works for me. I find my targets and accomplish my goals across the breadth of space.

I also do not really know where this "You're just trying to kick me out of highsec!" cry comes from. Less so the usual implication that I am only doing it to increase my wealth of targets.

Now, yes, I do believe (and say so frequently) that a lot of highsec players are playing the game wrong.

But really, if they all actually grew some brains cells to rub together, and figured out how to play, then who would I gank? If anything, my self interest lies exclusively in maintaining the current climate of opaque ignorance on the part of the playerbase at large.

So, yeah, stay in highsec.

(Please note, the above statement does not preclude my position that highsec is too lucrative)


Its a handwaiving tactic to distract people from the real problem and to use that handwaiving as proof that a coherent argument is false. Its basically brought out when the person really doesn't have anything to contribute but hates the idea that highsec might need to be nerfed for the health of the game. It really is helpful though anyone that utters "you just want more targets to shoot, you are trying to kick people out of highsec," can be ignored its almost as if this should be an automatic filter feature on eve-o.

Changing highsec won't get anyone who lives there to move out, but it will get my alts out of highsec and back in nullsec when its advantageous to move back.

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#872 - 2013-09-08 04:08:52 UTC
Quote:
there would nothing be wrong with telling CCP that you personally feel that there is an imblance, but you should acknowledge that other players do not feel this way


Thing is, much like how everyone cries so hard about "isk faucet" moons, the players who "do not feel this way" are just protecting their golden goose.

Except the numbers are a bit different.

Highsec income vastly exceeds moon income.

Which, of course, is the crux of the discussion.

Quote:
It really is helpful though anyone that utters "you just want more targets to shoot, you are trying to kick people out of highsec," can be ignored its almost as if this should be an automatic filter feature on eve-o.


Indeed. I've also found it rather helpful to know that there are a wide variety of "arguments" that can be discounted out of hand. My favorite though, is "ganking = griefing!!11", always brings a smile to my face. I suppose they only keep such stale retorts in the playbook because they have little of substance to fall back on?
Quote:

Changing highsec won't get anyone who lives there to move out, but it will get my alts out of highsec and back in nullsec when its advantageous to move back.


For me, some yes, some no. I like trading too much, the economy of this game is just too damn fun.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#873 - 2013-09-08 04:09:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
My signature isn't about null sec. Its about people that use the world entitlement and have questions about morality. Are you saying that high-sec can't use the word entitlement?

Well you've made your claims, but you should acknowledge that people won't agree with you and that you should ask CCP to do their work not based on just your opinion or a vote of a certain block of players, but to examine the actual data they have access to and come to their own conclusions.

After all if you believe that your data is correct, then CCP should come to the same conclusion, no?

However, they should base their decision on data. Not your opinion.

Personally, I suspect they don't read threadnaughts as they have better things to do then to read 50 pages of trolling and counter trolling.

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Bane Veradun
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#874 - 2013-09-08 04:15:12 UTC
No.

Hi.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#875 - 2013-09-08 04:16:08 UTC
Quote:
My signature isn't about null sec. Its about people that use the world entitlement and have questions about morality. Are you saying that high-sec can't use the word entitlement?


Hilariously, then, both statements are wrong.

Quote:
Well you've made your claims, but you should acknowledge that people won't agree with you and that you should ask CCP to do their work not based on just your opinion or a vote of a certain block of players, but to examine the actual data they have access to and come to their own conclusions.


Why? "Highsec", as a general rule, argues exclusively on emotion with no data or logic. One merely needs peruse this forum to discover that. Nigh constant belated shrieks with nothing to back them up. Worst of all, sometimes it gets results.

And that's the real problem. Sometimes, CCP does cave in to whining. Which is why discussions like these must take place.

Quote:
However, they should base their decision on data. Not your opinion.


I agree, revert the barge/exhumer EHP buff immediately.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#876 - 2013-09-08 04:19:40 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
My signature isn't about null sec. Its about people that use the world entitlement and have questions about morality. Are you saying that high-sec can't use the word entitlement?

Well you've made your claims, but you should acknowledge that people won't agree with you and that you should ask CCP to do their work not based on just your opinion or a vote of a certain block of players, but to examine the actual data they have access to and come to their own conclusions.

After all if you believe that your data is correct, then CCP should come to the same conclusion, no?

However, they should base their decision on data. Not your opinion.

Personally, I suspect they don't read threadnaughts as they have better things to do then to read 50 pages of trolling and counter trolling.


Your signature is a direct insult to nullsec. Highsec receives so many entitlements its not even funny. You can dock anywhere, magic super goku police protect you and you can AFK autopilot hence ~~~~Highsec is Safe~~~~. While in nullsec we are like a conservative paradise with our free markets. If you want to roleplay diplomat you have to act like one and change that sig to extend the olive branch.

I think we should be very clear here, there are facts and opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not to their own facts. The facts show that highsec brings in more income than nullsec, like I've said before Tippia, Malcanis and other well informed people provided this data.

So that means highsec reward is higher than nullsec reward and must be nerfed.

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Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#877 - 2013-09-08 04:30:11 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And that's the real problem. Sometimes, CCP does cave in to whining. Which is why discussions like these must take place.


Well if you want to believe that then I suppose that is on you.

Which I guess should make you feel bad because they buffed both exhumers and nerfed moon goo.

Which I guess means they listen to carebears more than you... Maybe you aren't posting enough. You should spend more time doing that.

Well there was the ice mining changes, but that really didn't end up as a high sec nerf as ice mining isk per hour went up dramatically.

But maybe if you used less personal attacks on players that played differently than you and asked more diplomatically then CCP might be more amiable to your suggestions as they wouldn't see you as a biased agenda leader.

Its not like the CSM has been in null hands for years and yet no major nerf to high sec has been noted as much as the exhumer buff was.

Still free to petition. Just don't get all uppity when people disagree with you.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#878 - 2013-09-08 04:32:23 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Your signature is a direct insult to nullsec. Highsec receives so many entitlements its not even funny. You can dock anywhere, magic super goku police protect you and you can AFK autopilot hence ~~~~Highsec is Safe~~~~. While in nullsec we are like a conservative paradise with our free markets. If you want to roleplay diplomat you have to act like one and change that sig to extend the olive branch.

I think we should be very clear here, there are facts and opinions. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but not to their own facts. The facts show that highsec brings in more income than nullsec, like I've said before Tippia, Malcanis and other well informed people provided this data.

So that means highsec reward is higher than nullsec reward and must be nerfed.

But gankers so you're wrong

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#879 - 2013-09-08 04:37:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Why? "Highsec", as a general rule, argues exclusively on emotion with no data or logic. One merely needs peruse this forum to discover that. Nigh constant belated shrieks with nothing to back them up. Worst of all, sometimes it gets results.

And that's the real problem. Sometimes, CCP does cave in to whining. Which is why discussions like these must take place.

Quote:
However, they should base their decision on data. Not your opinion.

I agree, revert the barge/exhumer EHP buff immediately.

And that's the real problem. Sometimes, CCP does cave in to whining. Which is why discussions like these must take place.

To get freighters buffed so they can safely carry 20bil isk

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#880 - 2013-09-08 04:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
Well if you want to believe that then I suppose that is on you.

Which I guess should make you feel bad because they buffed both exhumers and nerfed moon goo.

Which I guess means they listen to carebears more than you... Maybe you aren't posting enough. You should spend more time doing that.


Missed the point. Adjust your iron sights, and reacquire the target.

Quote:
But maybe if you used less personal attacks on players that played differently than you and asked more diplomatically then CCP might be more amiable to your suggestions as they wouldn't see you as a biased agenda leader.


Oh? Do tell. Is this "you", you refer to me specifically, or the "nullsec" that you seem to feel I represent? (btw, I don't live in nullsec, which might throw a gear in your machine)

"Ask more diplomatically"? Do you honestly hear yourself? As if the well reasoned arguments of player after player on this very thread are anything but. Deflection, and pretty obvious at that. So, do tell me, my myopic friend, what agenda precisely am I a biased leader of? Hmm?

I mean, according to you, it's quite impossible that I am unable to tolerate what currently stands as the most grievous balance issue in the game. No, I have to be enforcing some agenda or other.

What was that old saying? "A thief will always believe that others will steal"?

Your intellectual dishonesty is showing.

Quote:
Just don't get all uppity when people disagree with you.


Odd, because I really haven't seen much besides well reasoned, civil arguments from the people you have set yourself in opposition to. In fact, the only "uppity" people I have seen are the screaming highsec crowd. But they've always been pretty loud.

Read the "Highsec Miner Grab Bag" sometimes, you'll see what I mean. You do seem to have it backwards. The people to whom disagreement warrants vehemence and vitriol are in the camp you are standing in, not in mine.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.