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Do Level 4 missions pay too much compared to 1 through 3?

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Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#641 - 2013-09-05 17:46:39 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
The chart does not show what security space the largest wealth creation (bounties) come from. How have we arrived at the conclusion hisec is the problem?

Nullsec bounty payouts are x3-x4 more than hisec per kill.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#642 - 2013-09-05 17:47:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
How have we arrived at the conclusion hisec is the problem?
From the data on where the destruction happens and what type it is.

Quote:
Nullsec bounty payouts are x3-x4 more than hisec per kill.
Do you have a source for this, and why does it matter?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#643 - 2013-09-05 17:49:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
How have we arrived at the conclusion hisec is the problem?
From the data on where the destruction happens and what type it is.

Quote:
Nullsec bounty payouts are x3-x4 more than hisec per kill.
Do you have a source for this?


You know he doesn't lol, he's just parroting high sec belief.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#644 - 2013-09-05 17:50:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
How have we arrived at the conclusion hisec is the problem?
From the data on where the destruction happens and what type it is.

Quote:
Nullsec bounty payouts are x3-x4 more than hisec per kill.
Do you have a source for this, and why does it matter?


Yeah its demonstrable in game. Go kill a rat in hisec, note the payout, then go to null and kill the same class of rat. Its x3-x4 more per kill.

And it matters because your non evidence shows total payouts from bounties not from which security space each came.

Therefore, if one is to try to find any meaning from those stats you must consider the payout difference between each. At least you have to when your trying to imply one security space in particular is the cause for this being the largest wealth creation.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#645 - 2013-09-05 18:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Jenn aSide wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
My argument is that the numbers you linked do not show me any substantiated reason to believe EVE's economy is in trouble or that there is too much money in the economy. It does show me more money is made than destroyed which makes sense as if it weren't that way money would eventually go null.

That also isn't evidence. Its statistics. Statistics you're trying to use as evidence to support a claim you wish to imply as fact.

And when its rejected you want me to prove your unsubstantiated assertion isn't true.

As easily as you can insinuate nerfing missions I can insinuate increasing sinks.


In order for an economy to grow it need growth in its money supply

In the old days it was gold and silver mines. (Which many people in the 1890's complained weren't increasing the money supply fast enough).

Modern days its the banks.

In order for a healthy and growing economy, EVE needs a growing money supply just like the real world.

You don't want it too great or the prices will go up and cause inflation.

But you get a collapsing economy if there is a shrinkage in money supply (much like real world 2008).

Currently mineral prices are at an all time low and plex prices are sub 600 million.

Its a sign that there is little to no inflation therefore inflation is not a problem currently.

When mineral prices are a year high and plex's are at 700 million then maybe then we can say there is a problem with inflation.


That's like my wife saying "the bills are paid and we have gas in our tanks". That's fine, but do we wait till we are evicted and jobless to look at our long term financial situation? As I asked the other guy, do you fix a roof at the 1st leak or wait till it caves in on you.

Just last year Soundwave (I think it was him, i have the video somewhere) was talking 10% bounty cuts across the board. I'd rather other measures be looked at before cross the board emergency cuts are needed.


1. There is no such thing as unemployment in EVE.

2. Inflation has gone down over the past year with the fall of mineral prices to a year low.


How do you propose to fix a problem that seems to be not be a problem when you look at the charts?

If minerals were a a year high then yes maybe inflation is a problem, but when mineral prices are in a downward movement it means deflation is happening instead of inflation.

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#646 - 2013-09-05 18:02:20 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Yeah its demonstratable in game. Go kill a rat in hisec, note the payout, then go to null and kill the same class of rat.
…which tells us nothing useful. So do you have any actual source that shows that, per kill (not per arbitrarily matched-up rat type) null is higher.

Quote:
And it matters because your non evidence shows total payouts from bounties not from which security space each came. Therefore if one is to try to find any meaning from those stats you must consider the payout difference between each.
Ok, but a simple per-kill value does not tell us anything useful about the ratio of payouts. Even if your numbers were correct, highsec could still provide 99% of the bounty payouts…

Payout per kill is pretty much completely irrelevant. What matters is volume.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#647 - 2013-09-05 18:02:51 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Yeah its demonstratable in game. Go kill a rat in hisec, note the payout, then go to null and kill the same class of rat.
…which tells us nothing useful. So do you have any actual source that shows that, per kill (not per arbitrarily matched-up rat type) null is higher.

Quote:
And it matters because your non evidence shows total payouts from bounties not from which security space each came. Therefore if one is to try to find any meaning from those stats you must consider the payout difference between each.
Ok, but a simple per-kill value does not tell us anything useful about the ratio of payouts. Even if your numbers were correct, highsec could still provide 99% of the bounty payouts…

Payout per kill is pretty much completely irrelevant. What matters is volume.


Well do you have those numbers then?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#648 - 2013-09-05 18:02:59 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
How have we arrived at the conclusion hisec is the problem?
From the data on where the destruction happens and what type it is.

Quote:
Nullsec bounty payouts are x3-x4 more than hisec per kill.
Do you have a source for this, and why does it matter?


Yeah its demonstrable in game. Go kill a rat in hisec, note the payout, then go to null and kill the same class of rat. Its x3-x4 more per kill.

And it matters because your non evidence shows total payouts from bounties not from which security space each came.

Therefore, if one is to try to find any meaning from those stats you must consider the payout difference between each. At least you have to when your trying to imply one security space in particular is the cause for this being the largest wealth creation.


oh my god, you don't even know how RATS work?

You do know that a rat in high sec pays out as the same named rat in null sec right? Don't you? A Gist Saint Battleship in an Angel Extravaganza pays the same bounty as Gist Saint Battleship in an Angel hub in null sec....

You've simply got to be kidding me. Do you even play eve?
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#649 - 2013-09-05 18:07:07 UTC
Well you aren't going to have a moral victory over the Rats if you still can't prove inflation is a problem and that high-sec is the cause of it.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#650 - 2013-09-05 18:11:50 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well you aren't going to have a moral victory over the Rats if you still can't prove inflation is a problem and that high-sec is the cause of it.


I've already said what I needed to. The links are there for you to examine. You can come to whatever conclusion you like, but right is right and wrong is wrong. Again, i never said anyhting about currently existing inflation.

The original point is the same, it';s not great that such a large swath of high sec PVE players inject so much isk into the game while not frequently contributing to the consumption that fuels the economy. The most commonly killed ship in high sec pve is the Condor and most high sec pve deaths occur in or near starter systems.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#651 - 2013-09-05 18:13:24 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well do you have those numbers then?
Which ones?
The difference between this and this (which is nowhere near ×3–×4, and which incorrectly assumes both that the former is the only kind you see outside of null and that the latter is the only one you see in high), or do you mean the volume numbers?

As for the latter, no I don't, but they can be estimated from the mission income numbers.

Quote:
Well you aren't going to have a moral victory over the Rats if you still can't prove inflation is a problem and that high-sec is the cause of it.
Good thing, then, that that's not the goal.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#652 - 2013-09-05 18:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kitty Bear
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
My argument is that the numbers you linked do not show me any substantiated reason to believe EVE's economy is in trouble or that there is too much money in the economy.

You're being taken on a spin. My advice is just to let him have the last word.


yup ... it's the Sheldon approach to discussion & debate.




Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
THIS is a list of various sources of wealth in EVE. It details nicely the various sinks and sources. It is NOT evidence of a problem or an imbalance.
…and your argument for why you draw a different conclusion based on that and the other evidence provided is… what, exactly?




In fairness that linked data cannot be used to prove or disprove anything.
The data provided for NPC Bounties may be valid and factual for a specific period

But which NPC's are they
Hi-sec Mission NPC's
Sov-nul NPC's
npc-nul NPC's

If that figure represents multiple sources of NPC, then without the breakdown of the distribution of those sources, the data is just as irrelevant.


The data is meaningless, irrelevant and proves NOTHING for either viewpoint.



[edit]
I may indeed be wrong
But that doesn't mean that you are right.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#653 - 2013-09-05 18:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Tippia wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Well do you have those numbers then?
Which ones?
The difference between this and this (which is nowhere near ×3–×4, and which incorrectly assumes both that the former is the only kind you see outside of null and that the latter is the only one you see in high), or do you mean the volume numbers?

As for the latter, no I don't, but they can be estimated from the mission income numbers.

Quote:
Well you aren't going to have a moral victory over the Rats if you still can't prove inflation is a problem and that high-sec is the cause of it.
Good thing, then, that that's not the goal.


I meant the volume. Like how many of these ships are killed between high and null to make a comparision.

What is the goal? To increase your post count or to play "the forum game".

I mean you aren't exactly swaying public opinion by making statements and fail to back that up with meaningful data when requested.

I was hoping you'd actually spend the time to compile CCP data and put it somewhere on a website for educational purposes. Previously, you said you had the data to back up your statement and despite my several requests to see the data on meningful comparisons, I have yet to see anything other than published numbers of everyone's income combined.

Hell, I don't even mission. I think I might actually ask to join a friend renting from the goons (we'll see if they get evicted come the sov change though).

I'm not really invested in this argument (other than you are making one).

I would just like to see if you can actually back that statement up with something other than "It seems imbalanced from my personal perspective."

If you can't do that, just back down. Every letter you continue to type without actually providing data to show high sec mission running is imbalanced then you are making yourself look even a greater fool.

So just say "I don't have the data." and stop posting.

I fine saying "Is high-sec mission running imbalanced? We just don't know."

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

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Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#654 - 2013-09-05 18:33:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:



Life is so ******* hard for you. QQ I thought you guys wanted increased risk for the bigger rewards of null sec.



Yeah, so where are the rewards? Given the same amount if time I can use three agents two systems and make the same amount in hi sec given equal amounts of time.

Without having to cyno around ships (because moving a ratting battleships solo is near suicide)
Without having to fight off tacklers
Without black ops drops
Without fighting off small gangs
Without dealing with sov
Without needing to go 25+ jumps to get to a market
Without staring at local


I don't know where people get the idea that "null is all empty and no one is ever there" apparently they don't know how to use dotlan or are out in Spire or somewhere equal cut off. In all of the regions I've operated in (which is most of the map) there is constant activity, a lot of which you have to deal with.


They'll never understand this lol.

It's like trying to describe an honest days work to a rich kid. You tell the kid about having to get up the same time every morning (hours before you want to Cool , fight traffic to get to a job that you hate and that pays you just enough to pay for gas to get to work the next day (lol) and then coming home to screaming kids, stupid neighbors and a demanding spouse.

At which point the coddled rich kid looks at you and tells you they can sympathize because they had to drive 30 minutes to private airport then wait a whole 15 minutes for their minion to fuel their private plane just so they could fly for a WHOLE hour to their beach house in Malibu and when they get there their isn't even any of the good Caviar in the house because their houseman didn't know they were coming and so didn't go to the store.....

Yea, those high sec people who rarely ever die while having access to infinite missions while not even having to glance at local and who can go afk at ANY TIME and just leave their ship in space/at a gate sure do have it rough man. I don't see how they make it day to day......


Yeah those null sec folk hardly ever die, all they got to do is watch D-scan and have the occasional look at local then hide or dock up before they go back to farming their iskies.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#655 - 2013-09-05 18:34:53 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
What is the goal?
To demonstrate the imbalances in bounty-based income generation between the ISK influx and the ISK velocity those income sources generate.

Quote:
I was hoping you'd actually spend the time to compile CCP data and put it somewhere on a website for educational purposes.
Been there, done that. It's a bout a month older than TwoStep's data.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#656 - 2013-09-05 18:41:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
...........
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#657 - 2013-09-05 18:44:07 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I have to say that I find it absolutely precious that whenever I produce these back-of-the-envelope calculations of the sheer amount of wealth (ISK, LP, items, all totalled up) generated by hi-sec missions, it never ever fails to generate a huge shitstorm of denial, rage, obfuscation and desperate attempts to divert the discussion to something - anything else to obscure the simple fact that a single high population mission hub generates more wealth than all the high end moons combined.

Anyway, please do carry on. We can get this one to 50 pages easily. I know you guys can do it.


This proves that high sec has no CSM representatives.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#658 - 2013-09-05 18:46:16 UTC
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
LoL
So you agree then, seeing as how you can't think of any kind of argument or evidence to the contrary and have to resort to non-existing videos.
Caliph Muhammed
Perkone
Caldari State
#659 - 2013-09-05 18:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Caliph Muhammed
Tippia wrote:
Caliph Muhammed wrote:
LoL
So you agree then, seeing as how you can't think of any kind of argument or evidence to the contrary and have to resort to non-existing videos.


No I don't agree with you at all. Because your entire debating technique is to make a claim, have it painfully rejected and then pretend you didn't imply what you did.

So to recap the evidence you have presented shows nothing that you claim it does.

Cue the "ive never insinuated/implied anything schtick."

let's try it again
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#660 - 2013-09-05 18:53:00 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:



Life is so ******* hard for you. QQ I thought you guys wanted increased risk for the bigger rewards of null sec.



Yeah, so where are the rewards? Given the same amount if time I can use three agents two systems and make the same amount in hi sec given equal amounts of time.

Without having to cyno around ships (because moving a ratting battleships solo is near suicide)
Without having to fight off tacklers
Without black ops drops
Without fighting off small gangs
Without dealing with sov
Without needing to go 25+ jumps to get to a market
Without staring at local


I don't know where people get the idea that "null is all empty and no one is ever there" apparently they don't know how to use dotlan or are out in Spire or somewhere equal cut off. In all of the regions I've operated in (which is most of the map) there is constant activity, a lot of which you have to deal with.


They'll never understand this lol.

It's like trying to describe an honest days work to a rich kid. You tell the kid about having to get up the same time every morning (hours before you want to Cool , fight traffic to get to a job that you hate and that pays you just enough to pay for gas to get to work the next day (lol) and then coming home to screaming kids, stupid neighbors and a demanding spouse.

At which point the coddled rich kid looks at you and tells you they can sympathize because they had to drive 30 minutes to private airport then wait a whole 15 minutes for their minion to fuel their private plane just so they could fly for a WHOLE hour to their beach house in Malibu and when they get there their isn't even any of the good Caviar in the house because their houseman didn't know they were coming and so didn't go to the store.....

Yea, those high sec people who rarely ever die while having access to infinite missions while not even having to glance at local and who can go afk at ANY TIME and just leave their ship in space/at a gate sure do have it rough man. I don't see how they make it day to day......


Yeah those null sec folk hardly ever die, all they got to do is watch D-scan and have the occasional look at local then hide or dock up before they go back to farming their iskies.


Null sec loses 1.75 million ships to pvp and 125k per year to npcs. Null sec has 11% of EVE's characters

High sec (70+ percent of eve's characters) loses something like 250k ships per year to pvp and 1.5 million ships to pve per year, the majority of those high sec pve loses being Tech1 frigs in or near starter areas.

It's funny how you say all null sec folk have to do is glance at local to be safe. High sec folk don't even have to do that much.