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CSM townhall and T3's

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Author
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-07-12 06:29:10 UTC
Royal Jedi wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

PS: Yes, in WHs everyone ends up using T3s. This is probably because T3s are made and designed specifically for and from WHs, makes sense they'd be good at WHs. Saying T3s are the best ship for WHs is kinda like saying Titans are the best ship for doomsdaying carriers with. Well, yes, and?

Somewhat agree, but right now its pretty much the ONLY viable tactic in wspace, it shouldnt be T3 or GTFO. It would be nice to add a different dimension to wspace pvp.

to use a somewhat ironic example...
Aquila used to use a lot of nano fleet tactics to very good effect against many large WH groups and their T3s.
they ended up joining in with the T3 blobs though unfortunately.

solo T3s can lose to BCs
small scale T3s will lose to ewar
even t3 blobs can lose to alpha fleets

there are other option, people dont use them very much though.

(dont get me wrong, t3s probably are the best pound for pound but you only need a little imagination to find alternatives if you want to.)

There is no Bob.

Stuck In Here With Me:  http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/

Down the Pipe:  http://feeds.feedburner.com/CloakyScout

Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#82 - 2013-07-12 09:04:33 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:


Can someone explain to me why our representatives think cloaky T3's are OP?


In my opinion they're not. You can easily see if something is OP if the use of them extends past their intended role or if no other ship can fill the role. In the case of cloaky T3's their role is "booster", "scout", and heavy tackle.

In terms of scout or heavy tackle I don't see the T3's being over powered. They seem just right to me. In terms of booster they are prevalent but not the "only choice".

Quote:

Also, i see very little activity from Chitsa and James on these forums. Does anyone know if either of these two have a list somewhere, of features/changes that they are trying to get CCP to implement?


who the **** are Chitsa and James? Surely they the only two eve online players worth listening to.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#83 - 2013-07-12 09:05:00 UTC
Wonder what would happen if strat cruiser were to receive a massnerf. Afterall the models are mostly bigger than bc/cs and either or both dps and tank are at about BS level.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2013-07-12 09:17:23 UTC
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:


who the **** are Chitsa and James? Surely they the only two eve online players worth listening to.


The nominated CSM wormhole representatives... They're not the authority on everything wormhole related but their opinion and activity certainly matters.
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
#85 - 2013-07-12 10:51:36 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:


who the **** are Chitsa and James? Surely they the only two eve online players worth listening to.


The nominated CSM wormhole representatives... They're not the authority on everything wormhole related but their opinion and activity certainly matters.


Ah. I see.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-07-12 11:20:38 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
Quote:
Or it will force you to break your blobs into smaller units, since if you bring a blob of straight dps through I can sit back and alpha you back to highsec.


Seen quite a few try that and it don't work quite like that.

Quote:

The reason nullsec is seeing so many shifts is twofold.

Comparing null sex to WH doesn't really work well. See below:

Quote:

One is the power of the microjump drive on battleships. Since only a scram will prevent a warpout you either have to grab everybody at once or be forced to play ping pong games trying to grab one ship at a time while being shelled from range the entire time.

Second is the tierecide has buffed neut ranges on the geddons , ewar on the celestis which allows you to play two different types of alpha that will wreck a t3 fleet. The first is alpha cap/ewar. Enough range boosted geddons will zap the cap on anything nearby. And the celestises will ensure that unless your logistics stays in the danger zone they will never be able to lock further than the paint on their hulls. The second is a combination of the tracking bonus to the mega and the sentry bonus to the domis. The latter which allows for perfect alpha, since once the drones are assigned they follow the will of the FC at the speed of the FC, not individual knuckleheads trying to find targets on their poorly set up overviews. As for the tracking on the mega, since it is now prohibitively dangerous to stay in close with the exception of suicide goku fleets or doom portals, the buff to the tracking of the longest ranged weapon in the game makes it an obvious choice. There is still a very rock paper scissors meta here, until you start doing silly things with cap swarms and supers.

The availability of cynos and variable points of entry makes this work in nullsec so it seems all well and good. In wormholes however we only have the wormhole. Which makes every fight boring, since either you have to jump into me or me into you. Bringing all ranges to zero and concentrating everything into this little bitty sphere, where the do it all nature of the t3 makes it absurdly overpowered. Most of this is due to the nature of the terribleness of command ships and hacs in their current configurations, and the squishyness and inflexibility of recons. SInce the dangers to t3 fleets are removed by way of the limited mass of the wormhole they become overpowered because the only things that can beat them can't be used. Rendering them the one and only option out there. And that is both OP and boring at the same time.


Any discussion of battleships in WH is bascially mute. WH mass limitations can really create issues. Is it possible that since BS mass doesn't work well with WH that T3 reigns for that reason? (that is a rhetorical question btw)

Seems pretty obvious your basic issue is blobs. Most often used definition for blob in EVE is "any fleet which is larger than ours".


Geez, none of this was a comparison of 0.0 to WH space. It was simply trying to make the statment that if T3's were the OP "IWIN" button of EVE, why don't 0.0 alliances just fly T3 fleets exclusively.
Royal Jedi
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#87 - 2013-07-12 12:40:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Royal Jedi
Jack Miton wrote:

to use a somewhat ironic example...
Aquila used to use a lot of nano fleet tactics to very good effect against many large WH groups and their T3s.
they ended up joining in with the T3 blobs though unfortunately.

solo T3s can lose to BCs
small scale T3s will lose to ewar
even t3 blobs can lose to alpha fleets

there are other option, people dont use them very much though.

(dont get me wrong, t3s probably are the best pound for pound but you only need a little imagination to find alternatives if you want to.)


Please don't try to tell me those alternatives are a more effective tactic than armor brawling t3's... thats just not true....

Guess the reason why we joined in with T3 fleets.... they beat everything else.

Your examples are so uncommon... Your not jumping into anyone and nano-ing around anymore and as far as alpha fleets are concerned when and who does that on a regular basis?

Sure, you can use alternatives but they are pretty terrible, stop trying to believe that there are more effective gangs in w-space today than just T3 T3 T3 T3, its a bit boring and i wish it would change.
Sandslinger
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-07-12 14:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Sandslinger
Royal Jedi wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:

to use a somewhat ironic example...
Aquila used to use a lot of nano fleet tactics to very good effect against many large WH groups and their T3s.
they ended up joining in with the T3 blobs though unfortunately.

solo T3s can lose to BCs
small scale T3s will lose to ewar
even t3 blobs can lose to alpha fleets

there are other option, people dont use them very much though.

(dont get me wrong, t3s probably are the best pound for pound but you only need a little imagination to find alternatives if you want to.)


Please don't try to tell me those alternatives are a more effective tactic than armor brawling t3's... thats just not true....

Guess the reason why we joined in with T3 fleets.... they beat everything else.

Your examples are so uncommon... Your not jumping into anyone and nano-ing around anymore and as far as alpha fleets are concerned when and who does that on a regular basis?

Sure, you can use alternatives but they are pretty terrible, stop trying to believe that there are more effective gangs in w-space today than just T3 T3 T3 T3, its a bit boring and i wish it would change.


Jack already pointed out the most flippin obvious thing already..

Remove T3's abilities to do the Armor brawl that they do now and Faction BC and Command ships will be the next thing to be used. wormholes encourage close range brawling by their very nature. If you jump into a gang that is simply sniping at you. you either fix a warpin on top of them or simply blueball them out of sheer boredom.

So what happens when everyone is using Bc and CMD. Well they have less utility for starters so less ewar options to play with, less ways to deal with guardians means more sheer dps focus to simply overcome guardian reps. Where now T3 allow plenty of ewar options for overcoming or confussling guardians enough to get kills through logi. I understand that you guys want to be able to range and kite everything in wormholes and transfer your tactic versus the nullsec idiots that run straight into them to wormholes. Truth is 99% of entities will simply just jump back through the wormhole and say **** chasing that.
your not going to get what you want in wormholes regarding of how much you wish you could....

Back on BC and CMD, they have twice the sig so your looking at Dreads basically becoming twice as OP as they are now. Funny thing with the example given about the smaller unit standign up versus larger number with just 1/2 dreads. that is a nice example of a small unit utilizing a homefield advantage. However that tactic doesn't scale well. To beat it you simply need more flippin numbers then the opposing side. You need to be able to neutralize their web in some way orthe Dread itself, which means more and more numbers. And once you start talking about multiple dreads on field you need even larger numbers to beat it.

Unless the enemy is acting pure stupid Dread's give you a insane advantage and can't be beaten by a gang the same size which by itself promotes "blobbing" the enemy. Massive amounts of capitals is is why invasions now require hundreds of people and logistically burn out the people doing them. They are the main reason why Wspace got as static as it did.

But back to the T3 arguments. Sure T3 can do a lot of things well. Hauler,CovOpTackler or Brawler. Point is they are used for this because the nature of Wh space promotes it. Remove them and people will only ever use the second best option and so forth and so forth.
Personally I think the interdiction subsystem is OP and wouldn't mind seeing it removed or seeing the Cov Op subsystem Kill the DPS on the ships. In that regard I do think they are a bit OP as they encroach on Recons (Bit biased here as they are my alltime fav ship)

The main problem I see is that unless T3 does something Very Well then why ever use them. Every tactic in eve has always leaned towards multiples of one ship that does one thing the best. I can not ever remember a tactic that relied on a ship that was a jack of all trades but worst at everything. If someone else does please give me a example. I'll list the counter ones I can name off the cuff here

Vagabond blob (best speed) - We used to **** BS fleets 5 times our size with these, fuckall dps per vaga but bring enough and they raped all while not even needing logi to tank all.

Vaga + Ishtar Nano Blob (Best speed coupled with best applied alpha dps)

Zealot Ahac blob (Best armor tank with guards)
Abbadon sniper Blob
ArtyBaddon
Drake Blob
Tengu Blob
Hurricane blob

All of these and many before them had one thing in common, they were the best at their task so why ever use anything else.
Unless CCP uniforms every race this will always be the case.

What you see in EvE is People find the ship that is best at its role and then use greater and greater numbers of that one ship. ever Play a fighting game versus that one guy that is using the one character that has a certain combo that almost no characters can block, or been that guy :P It's the same flippin thing human nature.

At least T3 by their nature in wormholes promotes the usage of ewar/tactics to win fights over equal or superior numbers whereupon the second best options promotes tons and tons of dps. I'll take fights based upon the former then the latter any flippin day.

As to the "spread our blob into smaller blobs to not get alphaed by your guys" comment below .... Is this a serious comment or some sort of ironic self troll ?? Please tell me it's the latter =)

One more comment to add.

I think the unformity in fitting T3 fleets could do well with some imaginative input. I hope we(NoHo) can provide this going forwards =)

Also Mezzoroz Supercaps SHOULD be easier to kill then ANY blob of anything. No Ship in EvE should be a solopwnsmobile. So nice to hear that CCP seems to have got that right.
Royal Jedi
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#89 - 2013-07-12 14:44:47 UTC
Sandslinger wrote:

As to the "spread our blob into smaller blobs to not get alphaed by your guys" comment below .... Is this a serious comment or some sort of ironic self troll ?? Please tell me it's the latter =)


What?
Gnaw LF
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2013-07-12 15:38:04 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:

to use a somewhat ironic example...
Aquila used to use a lot of nano fleet tactics to very good effect against many large WH groups and their T3s.
they ended up joining in with the T3 blobs though unfortunately.

solo T3s can lose to BCs
small scale T3s will lose to ewar
even t3 blobs can lose to alpha fleets

there are other option, people dont use them very much though.

(dont get me wrong, t3s probably are the best pound for pound but you only need a little imagination to find alternatives if you want to.)



Its not an ironic example, it is a poorly informed example. We used nano fleet tactics against "large" WH groups back in the day when 100 to 150 pilots in a corp / alliance was a "large" group. Second, many of those "large" groups did not have a full T3 fleet but rather a rag tag fleet sprinkled with T3s. Thirdly, our nano tactics worked well in an age when shield fleets were more popular, Tengus ruled the sky and very few pilots were trained for Loki or Proteus. All that is gone, a nano fleet cannot hold a candle to a T3 fleet in w-space, Lokis will web out to 50km (optimal range of a nano Talos) and Proteus can point to an insane distance. Not to mention that a nano fleet will get messed up on the initial warp in with the HIC bubble up.

And yeah we ended up with T3 as our ships of choice, why wouldn't we? EvE is all about "adopt or die" mentality and we don't like dying.
James Arget
Future Corps
Sleeper Social Club
#91 - 2013-07-12 19:30:17 UTC
*sigh* Fine, I'll accelerate CCP's plans to nerf T3s. Sheesh.

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org

Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#92 - 2013-07-12 20:28:23 UTC
James Arget wrote:
*sigh* Fine, I'll accelerate CCP's plans to nerf T3s. Sheesh.


Sad day indeed for EVE...

James, remember most of the world thought the world was flat at one time. Turns out they were wrong. I'm beginning to think many EVE players would have been 'flat earth' types!!
Winthorp
#93 - 2013-07-12 22:43:25 UTC
Onomerous wrote:
James Arget wrote:
*sigh* Fine, I'll accelerate CCP's plans to nerf T3s. Sheesh.


Sad day indeed for EVE...

James, remember most of the world thought the world was flat at one time. Turns out they were wrong. I'm beginning to think many EVE players would have been 'flat earth' types!!


Shirly you're joking... or is he, is sarcasm lost on this generation.
Joan Greywind
The Lazy Crabs
#94 - 2013-07-14 04:48:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Joan Greywind
If asked the question, what is the best ship type (comp) in wh space? If the answer is clear (it is really, bring t3's with guardian support) in most situations, then it is a problem. Are you saying they should nerf t3' to the ground? Of course not, but making more comps viable and talking about it doesn't seem bad at all. For instance the geddon didn't get nerfed, but "rebalanced". t3's are trickier I admit, but fleet comps are becoming somewhat bland in WH's.

As I said before, I use t3's almost exclusively, so I am not pitching from the other side of the fence.

An area that is very risky to play with, is the mass of the t3's. The main advantage of t3 in wh's is actually is their dps/tank/utility per mass ratio. I think the subsystems should add or decrease mass. That way you don't mess with their dps tank etc.. directly.

Advantages:

1- Easier to balance (arguably) than changing the dps, tank, sig etc...

2- Will affect their usage in WH space mostly, where they are deemed, also arguably, to be overused (or overpowered).

3- Through this change the other 70% of the subsystems could become a little more useful, without a complete overhaul of their bonuses.

4- Using more fleet comps and more ship types.

Disadvantages:

1- The balance could be borked and their usage goes down to almost zero.

2- It will affect speed of the ship, and could be tricky to balance.

3- defenders will now get even a bigger home field advantage.

This is just a contribution and not a fully fleshed out idea, and not something I am saying needs to happen now, or is a "great" idea by any measure. I might be wrong here.

On another note, I don't see the point of name calling, and calling someone out for his bad English. It serves no purpose but to diminish the discussion at hand.
Kalel Nimrott
Caldari Provisions
#95 - 2013-07-14 05:54:23 UTC
Would it change the current situation if we could change subsystems in wspace? It willresolve one of the problems with t3s inour space givi g the posibility of more flexible doctrines.

Bob Artis, you will be missed.

O7

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#96 - 2013-07-14 06:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Messoroz
Kalel Nimrott wrote:
Would it change the current situation if we could change subsystems in wspace? It willresolve one of the problems with t3s inour space givi g the posibility of more flexible doctrines.


More flexible doctrines?What other doctrine is there besides armour blob?

Slightly more tanked armour blob? Slightly more dps armour blob? Cloaky armour blob?
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2013-07-14 10:03:26 UTC
Chitsa Jason
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-07-14 11:23:50 UTC
This thread is going places.

/me like

Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me

Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#99 - 2013-07-14 17:46:57 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Shield blobs?


Try shield fitting proteuses.

I would tell you the results but I want some free killmails first.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#100 - 2013-07-14 17:52:44 UTC
Messoroz wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
Shield blobs?


Try shield fitting proteuses.

I would tell you the results but I want some free killmails first.



Before they nerfed TEs you could do a wanabbe shield adrestia fit on a prot, with the pointless nerf to TEs you can't hold the range needed and get the dps at that range needed to make it at all worthwhile tho.