These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Why We Should Support Off Grid Boosting
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Zircon Dasher
#161 - 2013-06-21 23:37:31 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Mistress Lilu wrote:

AGAIN PROBE THEM.


What good will probing them do if you cannot land on grid with them and it can take an hour (in a Dram) for you to even see them on your overview?

This is especially of interest in highsec (but also low, NPC 0.0, and to a limited extent Sov 0.0)


I've personally killed an "unprobeable" booster without such shenanigans.

-Liang


Did you have somebody hiding on that grid too? I am actually v. interested in learning this trick as I know about a dozen 5-6 link boosters that get hidden away in such spots. Feel free to mail me if you would rather it not be public.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#162 - 2013-06-22 01:12:37 UTC
Boosts are easier than ever to probe down with the new mechanics. The excuse, we are not equipped to scout out the enemy fleet, should not be a valid one. You are already taking a fight that you are not prepared for.

Secondly we can also discuss the meaning of the words Command and Leadership. We aren't in the medieval days where the general had to be on field to give orders. Technically all forms of command and upper leadership are way in the back of any RL fights. Leadership is there to think, the grunts are there to fight. You dont put the thinkers in harms way.

Yes people I am getting very deep into this.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#163 - 2013-06-22 01:21:48 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Boosts are easier than ever to probe down with the new mechanics. The excuse, we are not equipped to scout out the enemy fleet, should not be a valid one. You are already taking a fight that you are not prepared for.

Secondly we can also discuss the meaning of the words Command and Leadership. We aren't in the medieval days where the general had to be on field to give orders. Technically all forms of command and upper leadership are way in the back of any RL fights. Leadership is there to think, the grunts are there to fight. You dont put the thinkers in harms way.

Yes people I am getting very deep into this.


In EVE, the FC, that would be the leadership in this instance, needs to see what is going on, and is thus in the thick of the fighting. This because we can't really livestream C&C (command and control) resources in game. Several of the larger fleet fights in Fountain recently have been decisive because the opposition players spied out and primaried the FCs of their enemy off the field. Thus they lacked leadership.

But.

Right now, we aren't talking about "leadership", aside from the very poor representation of that skill in the game. We are talking about flat out buffs.

The Army doesn't have some random, invisible thing that makes their tanks faster and their armor thicker. The Army doesn't have invincible shields to hide this random thing behind. The comparison is invalid.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#164 - 2013-06-22 02:48:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Boosts are easier than ever to probe down with the new mechanics. The excuse, we are not equipped to scout out the enemy fleet, should not be a valid one. You are already taking a fight that you are not prepared for.

Secondly we can also discuss the meaning of the words Command and Leadership. We aren't in the medieval days where the general had to be on field to give orders. Technically all forms of command and upper leadership are way in the back of any RL fights. Leadership is there to think, the grunts are there to fight. You dont put the thinkers in harms way.

Yes people I am getting very deep into this.


In EVE, the FC, that would be the leadership in this instance, needs to see what is going on, and is thus in the thick of the fighting. This because we can't really livestream C&C (command and control) resources in game. Several of the larger fleet fights in Fountain recently have been decisive because the opposition players spied out and primaried the FCs of their enemy off the field. Thus they lacked leadership.

But.

Right now, we aren't talking about "leadership", aside from the very poor representation of that skill in the game. We are talking about flat out buffs.

The Army doesn't have some random, invisible thing that makes their tanks faster and their armor thicker. The Army doesn't have invincible shields to hide this random thing behind. The comparison is invalid.




Well the military does have drones..... Or in our case cloaky scouts... Which boosting t3s are also good at.


Yes FCs are the glue of a fleet but they arent the "kings" so to speak. I guess in Chess terms they would be more along the lines of a Queen considering they are needed but the game can go on whereas a pawn can eventually take its place.

Boosters fit into this equation more along the lines as a morale booster. When you start to teach a rookie about pvp and you get them into their first boosted fleet they feel invincible. When you get a Vet into a fleet with a booster there isnt much of a reaction because he should know that no matter how many tools you have at your disposal, if they arent used properly, then they are useless.

Yes I will admit that boosters do make the stats on paper look a lot better but I discussed this a few pages back. There are way too many variables in eve to conclude that OGB are a fight deciding advantage. Eve is way to complex for the equation to be (ship + booster = win). An advantage? yes. Game changing? No!

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
#165 - 2013-06-22 03:47:30 UTC
Zeus Maximo wrote:


Yes I will admit that boosters do make the stats on paper look a lot better but I discussed this a few pages back. There are way too many variables in eve to conclude that OGB are a fight deciding advantage. Eve is way to complex for the equation to be (ship + booster = win). An advantage? yes. Game changing? No!
You are going to say that a 36km T2 point on a ship isn't a game changer? Or a 35% boost to shield resists isn't a game changer? And you can do this safely from a POS or some other SS. That is the very definition of game changing. . .

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#166 - 2013-06-22 03:51:11 UTC
Ohishi wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Yes I will admit that boosters do make the stats on paper look a lot better but I discussed this a few pages back. There are way too many variables in eve to conclude that OGB are a fight deciding advantage. Eve is way to complex for the equation to be (ship + booster = win). An advantage? yes. Game changing? No!
You are going to say that a 36km T2 point on a ship isn't a game changer? Or a 35% boost to shield resists isn't a game changer? And you can do this safely from a POS or some other SS. That is the very definition of game changing. . .

Long point, long web ....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#167 - 2013-06-22 04:51:34 UTC
Ohishi wrote:
You are going to say that a 36km T2 point on a ship isn't a game changer? Or a 35% boost to shield resists isn't a game changer? And you can do this safely from a POS or some other SS. That is the very definition of game changing. . .



If you are wanting to fight then why does it matter that you are pointed?

Anyways lets move on and do some math that most people in eve fail to comprehend. When you add resists to your ship it does not calculate the result from what your current resist is. It calculates the number from what is not being covered.

If your lowest resist is 65% then we will take the difference of 100 and 65 which is 35%. To calculate the "game changing" 35% resist bonus you multiple .35(resist bonus) by the 35% you are not covering which is 12.25%. This means instead of your resist being 65 it will now increase to 77.25%. To reiterate, a 12.25% is the actual increase a 35% shield resist bonus adds.

If the player is flying a t3 with its lowest resist at 80% then a massive number of 7 will be added to the total. This may all seem complicated but if you take all of this into account along with the assumption that most eve pilots ships hit a whopping 60,000 EHP; the actual EHP boost is roughly 4,000 ehp. In dps terms that is 1 to 2 volleys depending on the damage type being inflicted. Now you should try to tell me that all pilots in a fight start shooting at the same time.

As I said before the fight comes down to the pilots, not the tools.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
#168 - 2013-06-22 05:51:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ohishi
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Ohishi wrote:
You are going to say that a 36km T2 point on a ship isn't a game changer? Or a 35% boost to shield resists isn't a game changer? And you can do this safely from a POS or some other SS. That is the very definition of game changing. . .



If you are wanting to fight then why does it matter that you are pointed?

Anyways lets move on and do some math that most people in eve fail to comprehend. When you add resists to your ship it does not calculate the result from what your current resist is. It calculates the number from what is not being covered.

If your lowest resist is 65% then we will take the difference of 100 and 65 which is 35%. To calculate the "game changing" 35% resist bonus you multiple .35(resist bonus) by the 35% you are not covering which is 12.25%. This means instead of your resist being 65 it will now increase to 77.25%. To reiterate, a 12.25% is the actual increase a 35% shield resist bonus adds.

If the player is flying a t3 with its lowest resist at 80% then a massive number of 7 will be added to the total. This may all seem complicated but if you take all of this into account along with the assumption that most eve pilots ships hit a whopping 60,000 EHP; the actual EHP boost is roughly 4,000 ehp. In dps terms that is 1 to 2 volleys depending on the damage type being inflicted. Now you should try to tell me that all pilots in a fight start shooting at the same time.

As I said before the fight comes down to the pilots, not the tools.

It's not the fact of being pointed, it's the fact that you effectively gain an officer point in battle without the ISK cost or the risk of losing such a module. This imbalance alone is game breaking.

Also, if you don't think that 35% boost to shield resists isn't a massive boost to your ship then you are simply trying to downplay the advantage that OGB gives you because you don't want to lose your advantage.

MATHS FOR YOU!!!!! 100 damage at 65% resists is 35 damage. At your 77% resist that is 23 damage. Now let's say that you do 1000 DPS and for sake of simplicity we'll do 1 minute increments. 1000x60=60000x.35=21000 applied damage. Now 60000x.23=13800. If average EHP is 60000 then it will take your ship a little under 3 minutes to kill the unboosted ship, while a boosted ship will take approximately 4 1/2 minutes to kill. That is over a minute and a half that the boosted ship will live in a game where seconds could decide the outcome. This doesn't even take into account the higher number of actual HP that you gain from having a booster in your fleet so the discrepancy is actually a lot higher in regards to EHP and resists.

Now what about those ships that already have huge resists and also a larger base tank. Since these boosts work in percents instead of base numbers you are gaining an even bigger advantage with your booster alts over those that do not have an OGB. Please feel free to tout your flawed logic and try to rip a hole in mine, but you won't. OGB is broken and hopefully it will be going away very soon.

EDIT: fixed a number

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

ACE McFACE
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#169 - 2013-06-22 07:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: ACE McFACE
The Mining Argument
Roquals aside, most people using Orcas for support have boosts and are on-grid, so the change won't affect them. For Roquals, why is it hard for CCP to 'code' in a different bonus for them. Oh wait, it isn't any more difficult than any other ship.

The 'Really Difficult to Program' Argument
I can't speak for CCP, but it really does't seem very hard to implement, grids exist for a reason.


The Revenue is King Argument
Booster alts can still be used, just at slightly more risk for dual boxers

The EVE is Harsh Argument
EVE is harsh, so why should people get huge boosts with no risk?

The Fair Argument
So I guess when (Not if) off-grid boosting is removed, people with boosts on grid are still somehow at a disadvantage

The 'Elite Solo PVP' Argument
Doesn't matter if its the same person controlling 2 characters, its hardly solo anymore. And EVE is also hardly about solo play.

The 'It has always been like this' Argument
Rename this to The 'Change is scary' Argument

The 'elite Small Gang pvp' Argument
If you need your booster 14 AU away cloaked rather than 300km away cloaked something is wrong.

The Curbstomp while Outnumbered Argument
You don't need a booster for this, you need logi and superior ships and pilots.

The Force Multiplier Disuse Argument
Sorry, almost every fleet (Unless its just 2 or 3 people) uses logi and/or EW ships. Saying 'hardly any fleets' makes it look like you have no experience.

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Pr1ncess Alia
Doomheim
#170 - 2013-06-22 07:16:27 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Pr1ncess Alia wrote:
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69 wrote:
I really wish people would learn what 'Pay to Win' means (hint: Eve is not), when people claim that PLEX is play to win it undermines the whole argument against actual pay to win micro-transactions.

If you do believe Eve is pay to win explain how the advantage given to me by multiple accounts is pay to win when I don't directly spend any money on the game? (p.s. I don't OGB but I have in the past)


So all the OGB accounts payed for with normal sub. cash are bad?

But the OGB accounts fueld with PLEX are legit gameplay advantage?

In the end it's a risk/reward argument. You shouldn't be able to BUY an untouchable/invulnerable combat advantage, period.

Instead of trying to split hairs on whether PLEX invalidates a 'pay to win' scheme, perhaps you should broaden your definition of just what pay to win is. Who says it has to be cash? And it all falls apart if I ACTUALLY CAN purely fund this advantage with RL cash (which you can.)


You can fund this advantage with out spending money aswell, so it's not pay to win.


lol look at you
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#171 - 2013-06-22 07:25:36 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
The 'elite Small Gang pvp' Argument
If you need your booster 14 AU away cloaked rather than 300km away cloaked something is wrong.

People have their booster cloaked while giving bonuses...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Benjen Gelade
Doomheim
#172 - 2013-06-22 07:34:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Benjen Gelade
Lots of passionate views being expressed, but absolutely nothing from the dev team.

Bump
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#173 - 2013-06-22 07:36:56 UTC
Benjen Gelade wrote:
Lots of passionate views being expressed, but absolutely nothing from the dev team.

Bump

Of course, it's General Discussion.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zeus Maximo
Mentally Assured Destruction
The Pursuit of Happiness
#174 - 2013-06-22 10:06:10 UTC
Ohishi wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Ohishi wrote:
You are going to say that a 36km T2 point on a ship isn't a game changer? Or a 35% boost to shield resists isn't a game changer? And you can do this safely from a POS or some other SS. That is the very definition of game changing. . .



If you are wanting to fight then why does it matter that you are pointed?

Anyways lets move on and do some math that most people in eve fail to comprehend. When you add resists to your ship it does not calculate the result from what your current resist is. It calculates the number from what is not being covered.

If your lowest resist is 65% then we will take the difference of 100 and 65 which is 35%. To calculate the "game changing" 35% resist bonus you multiple .35(resist bonus) by the 35% you are not covering which is 12.25%. This means instead of your resist being 65 it will now increase to 77.25%. To reiterate, a 12.25% is the actual increase a 35% shield resist bonus adds.

If the player is flying a t3 with its lowest resist at 80% then a massive number of 7 will be added to the total. This may all seem complicated but if you take all of this into account along with the assumption that most eve pilots ships hit a whopping 60,000 EHP; the actual EHP boost is roughly 4,000 ehp. In dps terms that is 1 to 2 volleys depending on the damage type being inflicted. Now you should try to tell me that all pilots in a fight start shooting at the same time.

As I said before the fight comes down to the pilots, not the tools.

It's not the fact of being pointed, it's the fact that you effectively gain an officer point in battle without the ISK cost or the risk of losing such a module. This imbalance alone is game breaking.

Also, if you don't think that 35% boost to shield resists isn't a massive boost to your ship then you are simply trying to downplay the advantage that OGB gives you because you don't want to lose your advantage.

MATHS FOR YOU!!!!! 100 damage at 65% resists is 35 damage. At your 77% resist that is 23 damage. Now let's say that you do 1000 DPS and for sake of simplicity we'll do 1 minute increments. 1000x60=60000x.35=21000 applied damage. Now 60000x.23=13800. If average EHP is 60000 then it will take your ship a little under 3 minutes to kill the unboosted ship, while a boosted ship will take approximately 4 1/2 minutes to kill. That is over a minute and a half that the boosted ship will live in a game where seconds could decide the outcome. This doesn't even take into account the higher number of actual HP that you gain from having a booster in your fleet so the discrepancy is actually a lot higher in regards to EHP and resists.

Now what about those ships that already have huge resists and also a larger base tank. Since these boosts work in percents instead of base numbers you are gaining an even bigger advantage with your booster alts over those that do not have an OGB. Please feel free to tout your flawed logic and try to rip a hole in mine, but you won't. OGB is broken and hopefully it will be going away very soon.

EDIT: fixed a number



If you look at a killmail the damage taken is never the same as the listed EHP. 1000 dps can easily kill a 60,000 ehp in under 60 seconds.

Check out a killmail, you'll see what I'm talking about.

"It is not possible either to trick or escape the mind of Zeus."

U-MAD Membership Recruitment

PoH Corporation Recruitment
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#175 - 2013-06-22 12:59:10 UTC
Benjen Gelade wrote:

The Revenue is King Argument

In order to use OGB you need to subscribe for an account on which to keep the boosting pilot. Therefore OGB provides CCP with revenue. It would not be appropriate for CCP to nerf OGB as this would lead to players that use OGB unsubscribing accounts. CCP's primary objective is to increase the wealth of its shareholders. Good gameplay isn't actually the priority.


It's hard to know how many accounts they are losing due to the utter stupidity of ogbs.

As more and more people realize how important paying for 2 accounts becomes (so you can sit one in a safe spot while you pvp with the other account) I think eve will become much harder to sell. Would you have installed eve if someone told you that?


This sort of reputation takes time to build. But once a game has a black mark like that, it's hard to shake. I think the best and brightest at ccp realize this, and will end ogbs before the game completely goes to ****.

Benjen Gelade wrote:

The 'elite Small Gang pvp' Argument

Small gang PVP is one of the most elite forms of PVP in EVE. But it is now in danger of extinction. All the pros and big names in EVE agree that without an OGB providing a small gang with a massive ship performance boost (pretty much akin to each of the ships in fleet getting top end performance from tech 2 fits) small gang would be dead.

Small gangs need the OGB 'pay to win' mechanism to remain viable. This isn't a battle to save OGB, it is a war to save solo and small gang.

The Curbstomp while Outnumbered Argument

It is easy in eve to change a 10 vs 15 fleet fight into the equivalent of a 40 vs 15 curbstomp. All you need is the OGB force multiplier (and you can use this force multiplier at absolutely no risk). The reason why this is a really good thing for the game is because it provides really good content. It is really cool seeing an outnumbered fleet curbstomp a larger group of pilots on youtube, so CCP should definitely not nerf OGB. If anything, make it more of an advantage. Pilots without links will complain, but most pros agree, they need to just deal with it.

The Force Multiplier Disuse Argument

The primary problem with using a force multiplier, like logistics or jammers, is that a fleet must defend them against being primaried in a fight. This is why most fleets in eve do not use jammers or logistics. It is important for CCP to keep OGB a 100% inside POS shield thing, else people will stop using it like they did jammers and logistics.

If I have missed any of the main arguments, please let me know and I will include them.

Regards
Benjen "Manual Pilot" Gelade




Please show me the data where smaller gangs are more likely to have links than larger fleets. Until then I will make the more common sense assumption that it is the blobs that are more likely to have links than the smaller scale pvpers.

These arguments are really bad and the only reason you are posting them is you have grown used to your crutch. But like you say "eve is harsh." You will need to learn walk without it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#176 - 2013-06-22 13:02:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Benjen Gelade wrote:
Lots of passionate views being expressed, but absolutely nothing from the dev team.

Bump


CCP Fozzie has promised to remove ogb as soon as they can do that without melting the servers. Does he have to enter every thread where the same arguments are repeated over and over?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#177 - 2013-06-22 13:03:16 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Mistress Lilu wrote:

AGAIN PROBE THEM.


What good will probing them do if you cannot land on grid with them and it can take an hour (in a Dram) for you to even see them on your overview?

This is especially of interest in highsec (but also low, NPC 0.0, and to a limited extent Sov 0.0)


I've personally killed an "unprobeable" booster without such shenanigans.

-Liang


Did you have somebody hiding on that grid too? I am actually v. interested in learning this trick as I know about a dozen 5-6 link boosters that get hidden away in such spots. Feel free to mail me if you would rather it not be public.



Requires a very very fast ship, the fastest you can fit implant and boosted/links, use your D-Scan and hope when you hit his grid it's an alt and the guy is not watching the screen.

That's it.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#178 - 2013-06-22 13:04:05 UTC
CCP will remove the broken OGB system from the game.

Deal with it.

The Tears Must Flow
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#179 - 2013-06-22 13:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Evei Shard wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Zeus Maximo wrote:
Let me know what fit you use to get 50% bonus to all stats. How do I increase my dps by that much? Still havent seen an example of lesser incapable ships killing a much larger more capable fleet.


Really want to know what it looks like a very expensive fitted ship with top booster alt, pirate implants etc is capable of??

If you really never watched this you're doing it wrong and will never understand why it's so bad.

Skip the "Tengu" part and replace it for Proteus, Legion, Loki, Adestria, Mimir or any real good base ship. If you think links are not OP you're either doing it wrong or you never crossed a good player route with these.


I'm not challenging your statement here, just curious. It is not possible for a Tengu to be flown that well without OGB? I mean, he seems pretty much invincible, at least in the first few battles.
How much skill is involved, or is OGB just that powerful?



OGB is just that powerful, plain simple.

No Tengu even officer fitted with top implants can burn at over 4K speed, 6K speed with heat, it's just impossible without the combination of those implants/boosters+ the inevitable links.
Take a loki instead of that Tengu and you can hit 8K speed with heat, over 600+dps (nothing related to links) and over 3.5k permanent tank cap stable

Links don't increase your dmg as you can see that Tengu dps is often pretty low but in pvp doesn't matter having a bazillion dps if you can't apply it or survive long enough to apply most of it (Gallente), links greatly achieve this part increasing survivability exponentially, far too much.

Now, pick a Sleipnir put a Pith XL-SB, boosters, crystals and off grid links and you'll see what it looks like a clearly really overpowered ship that isn't one in the first place without links.

Yes, links are really a game changer and need either to be scraped from the game or nerf to the ground.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#180 - 2013-06-22 13:39:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Domanique Altares
Zeus Maximo wrote:


Check out a killmail, you'll see what I'm talking about.


What are you talking about? That you don't know how KMs and resists work?

The KM lists the unadjusted raw damage taken, and not the damage applied before resists. If your ship has 60,000 HP total between shields, armor, and hull, then it will need to incur 60,000 points of damage before it dies. (Without logi/reps factored. This does amusing things to KMs.) This is what the KM will show. That does not mean that a 1000 DPS ship shot it for 60 seconds. If the dead hull in question had any sort of resists (and they all do) then the 1000 DPS ship applied in excess of 60,000 DPS to do an actual 60,000 points of damage, since some of it was cancelled by resists.

EHP has resists factored, and does not show up on KMs.

ETA: KMs really should show the raw damage dealt, as well as that applied to the hull. You'd get a much clearer story.