These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey 1.1] Nosferatu mechanic change

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#101 - 2013-06-20 08:14:14 UTC
Ok, so what if ALL NOS were balanced to have 3s cycle time?
Then their primary purpose would be to keep vital modules running against enemy neuting. That would be something that is useful also for battleships, wouldn't it?
(atm, the cycle time of the large NOS doesn't help much)
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#102 - 2013-06-20 09:06:56 UTC
Bang up job on this one Rise and fozzie! These are the kind of simplistic well thought out changes this game needs.

My only suggestion would be to review cap drain amounts and cycle times a small bit. For example, Id suggest lowering the duration between cycles for the medium and large variants and also lowering the drain amount by a similar margin. Overall cap drainage should remain similar (slight buff may be warranted).
Klingon Admiral
Carcinisation
#103 - 2013-06-20 09:27:07 UTC
Doesn't this change indirectly nerf the still very, very niche Cap Batteries? They may be in need of another balance pass.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-06-20 09:49:30 UTC
Sounds good to me.

Got good cap and a spare high use? use a neut
Got crappy cap/hungry ship and a spare high? use a nos

The way it was planned to work with the last change, essentially.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#105 - 2013-06-20 09:53:58 UTC
It is still a bit too weak Rise. You could open up space with qa modifier value on both NOS and neuts, but mainly in NOS. That woudl affect the treshold on the NOS.

Example NOS meta 1 treshold 1.0. When your enemy has 100 cap and you have less than 100, your NOS works. Meta 9, multipliers 0.6. When you have 100 cap.. you can drain from opponents with 160 or more cap.


That woudl open space for reasonable MORE VALUE of meta levels, and even space for a NOS/NEU "damage mod" that amplifier the treshold on the NOS and the ammount or cycle speed on the NEUT.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#106 - 2013-06-20 10:02:13 UTC
I would be all in for the old NOS but I get that you never should be able to "manufacture" capacitor out of thin air (like cap transfer mods do).

So reducing the powergrid needs for the modules and reducing the cycle times for them would go a long way.

For the draining amount let's say laser boats should all be happy to have at least one NOS to keep thier guns fireing while being under cap pressure.

I would just love to have my Harbinger have a medium NOS and slurp enough cap to keep fireing and repping.


Oh and while you are at it, please reduce the capacitor need amount for medium and large armor reps by 50%.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Sakkar Arenith
Kenmei Corporation
#107 - 2013-06-20 10:07:57 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
[...]

This means if you turn on your NOS, and you have 125 cap in your cap pool, and your opponent has 370, the NOS works regardless of relative % cap.

The biggest effect here will most likely be that any time you're fighting up a class (frig vs cruiser, cruiser vs BS, etc) NOS will become a much more attractive choice. It also means that in fights with several ship sizes present, deciding on a target for your NOS should be more intuitive (target something big).

Gimme feedback o/

(PS - this would of course effect all sizes and all metas)


in effect this means that cruisers can never nosf frigates, and battleships can never nosf BCs/Cruisers.

This in turn means that this module is pretty much useless except on a very few select frigates with a utility high AND the spare PG/CPU, aka, hardly any ships at all.


While its obvious that Nosferatu need a good buff, this isnt helpful to anyone ever.


While the old nos was overpowered and thus ubiquitous, the main problem was within the aforementioned nos domi, nos phoon, who could generate cap out of nothing AND were able to stop all small ships with a single cycle.

Heavy Neuts have largely taken the role of the former nos (after they good buffed years ago), and while they dont generate cap, they are still the ultimate weapon on a battleship against a smaller craft.

The problem with cap warfare at the moment, arent nos, neuts etc, its the broken mechanic kept alive by cap boosters. Cap boosters negate most forms of sensible cap warfare, and have become a MUST FIT module on most PVP ships.


So while I could suggest changing x or y on nosf, the problem lies within the entire system and mostly cap boosters.

That is where the balancing needs to happen!
BadSeamus
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2013-06-20 10:16:17 UTC
Sweet change. Last time I saw NOS actually being used was the day before the nerf.... 'bout time!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#109 - 2013-06-20 11:07:50 UTC
Sakkar Arenith wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
[...]

This means if you turn on your NOS, and you have 125 cap in your cap pool, and your opponent has 370, the NOS works regardless of relative % cap.

The biggest effect here will most likely be that any time you're fighting up a class (frig vs cruiser, cruiser vs BS, etc) NOS will become a much more attractive choice. It also means that in fights with several ship sizes present, deciding on a target for your NOS should be more intuitive (target something big).

Gimme feedback o/

(PS - this would of course effect all sizes and all metas)


in effect this means that cruisers can never nosf frigates, and battleships can never nosf BCs/Cruisers.

This in turn means that this module is pretty much useless except on a very few select frigates with a utility high AND the spare PG/CPU, aka, hardly any ships at all.


While its obvious that Nosferatu need a good buff, this isnt helpful to anyone ever.


While the old nos was overpowered and thus ubiquitous, the main problem was within the aforementioned nos domi, nos phoon, who could generate cap out of nothing AND were able to stop all small ships with a single cycle.

Heavy Neuts have largely taken the role of the former nos (after they good buffed years ago), and while they dont generate cap, they are still the ultimate weapon on a battleship against a smaller craft.

The problem with cap warfare at the moment, arent nos, neuts etc, its the broken mechanic kept alive by cap boosters. Cap boosters negate most forms of sensible cap warfare, and have become a MUST FIT module on most PVP ships.


So while I could suggest changing x or y on nosf, the problem lies within the entire system and mostly cap boosters.

That is where the balancing needs to happen!




Have become? Cap injectors always were a MUST fit since eve Day 1!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Sakkar Arenith
Kenmei Corporation
#110 - 2013-06-20 11:15:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Sakkar Arenith
Kagura Nikon wrote:



Have become? Cap injectors always were a MUST fit since eve Day 1!


Well as someone who has been around since day 1, i can say that isnt quite true.

But for a very long time now, cap boosters have been unsubstitutable in PVP.

Which is wrong, and must not happen, "tweaking" nos now, is like putting $5,000 rims on a $800 car with a broken engine.
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#111 - 2013-06-20 11:23:32 UTC
Sakkar Arenith wrote:


in effect this means that cruisers can never nosf frigates, and battleships can never nosf BCs/Cruisers.



so what?

surely a huge cap battery trying to suck a tiny bit of cap from a tiny one would be pointless anyway so, whats the big deal?

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#112 - 2013-06-20 11:31:25 UTC
Sakkar Arenith wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
[...]

This means if you turn on your NOS, and you have 125 cap in your cap pool, and your opponent has 370, the NOS works regardless of relative % cap.

The biggest effect here will most likely be that any time you're fighting up a class (frig vs cruiser, cruiser vs BS, etc) NOS will become a much more attractive choice. It also means that in fights with several ship sizes present, deciding on a target for your NOS should be more intuitive (target something big).

Gimme feedback o/

(PS - this would of course effect all sizes and all metas)


in effect this means that cruisers can never nosf frigates, and battleships can never nosf BCs/Cruisers.

This in turn means that this module is pretty much useless except on a very few select frigates with a utility high AND the spare PG/CPU, aka, hardly any ships at all.

While its obvious that Nosferatu need a good buff, this isnt helpful to anyone ever.


This man gets it. I can't believe that so many people are saying that this is a great change. The idea has not been thought through in the slightest. It's a stupid idea.

The idea helps small Nos against larger ships - but small nos is actually already quite good, having a distinct niche role in neut-defence on tacklers. People are talking about fitting four Nos to a tackler to be almost neut-immune - but you can already do this! The mechanic change alters nothing in practice for small Nos, as frigates using one as neut-defence almost always has a lower cap % than the neuter anyway.

But it's on heavy Nos that the failures of the idea are clearest. Heavy Nos is unused today - yet this idea nerfs it, but making it ineffective against smaller ships. What kind of crazy logic leads to the conclusion that heavy Nos needs nerfing?
Naomi Anthar
#113 - 2013-06-20 12:20:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
As previous poster , people have no idea if they claim its good change. It will leave nos useless for high cap ships (amarr) and also on all bigger ships (especially amarr) .

You guys need to actually play game and use module - or at least try it once upon time . Because if you don't then you come to topics like this and claim that you are pretty sure this change is good.

Hell i will say even more ! This change is actually nerf to nos for many ships in many situations.

So what ccp is basically asking me is to engage cruisers with frig else this module is useless (especially for amarr as they got biggest cap pool so they will hardly nos other frigates). And i doubt i want to engage cruisers with many frigates. Sure it is possible but only certain ships and vs certain cruisers.

Truth is module should be useful in frigate vs frigate situation and cruiser vs cruiser. You did nothing to fix NOS, you actually break this module for many ships that use it already, but after change it will be useless for those.

Once again big -1 . It's better to keep nos as it is, even if it is useless and broken. Making it even worse or only good for ships with low cap pool (minmatar) is absolutely bad idea.

Edit : Sorry it sounds like i was trying to say previous poster got no idea. I was actually saying that i think on NOS as previous poster where he points people are unaware change is not good at all. Just clarification.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#114 - 2013-06-20 12:49:26 UTC
Potentially a start. They definitely need a look into.

I'd like to see it on a sliding scale of some form. Not sure on the numbers. ie if my NOS ship is low on cap, and I use it against a ship with lots, I get the max amount of cap back. Whilst if he has no cap, and I have lots - i get near enough bugger all.
I don't like the "enemy must have more than you" part. Although I'm sure there is probably a good reason for it.

Regardless I'd like to see the fitting requirements dropped quite significantly!
StoneCold
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
#115 - 2013-06-20 12:51:16 UTC
I´d like to see NOS working also from large to small tbh.
If i got a spare utility slot on a battleship atm i 'have' to fit a neut to fight of tacklers.
Would be awesome if a nos would also work (takes longer then the neut but still would work).

My true stories
TuccarAbla
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#116 - 2013-06-20 12:57:19 UTC
If this change happens, you should remove the curse from game, it is already a weak ship and now if this change happens, it wont be able to kill a simple frigate.
Stetson Eagle
Paird Technology
#117 - 2013-06-20 13:20:59 UTC
Kobea Thris wrote:
Minor side point to this, but if you go ahead with this, you may want to look at how it will affect PVE ships who use NOS against rats, and how you want it to affect them. I would imagine that currently, Rats always have 100% cap, but don't have an actual cap amount. Going forward, that would likely mean NOS wouldn't work at all against rats.


And here I was planning a solo WH build on this.

How do the ship bonuses apply? Drain more from target, or yield more cap only?
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#118 - 2013-06-20 13:40:02 UTC
It was already specified earlier in the thread that the NOS changes will have no effect on how they work in PvE.
MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#119 - 2013-06-20 13:55:02 UTC
Excellent change, should have been like that already.

+1

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#120 - 2013-06-20 14:00:42 UTC
TuccarAbla wrote:
If this change happens, you should remove the curse from game, it is already a weak ship and now if this change happens, it wont be able to kill a simple frigate.


Capacitor Flux Coils would like to have a word with you in the hallway.