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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Author
Kane Fenris
NWP
#361 - 2013-06-20 14:24:56 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Originally we talked to the art department because we were considering a lot of options that involved either adding or removing art assets (as I've said several times already), and during those discussions it came to light that they prefer the look of the Hoarder to the Mammoth. With that in mind we made the Hoarder the larger of the two, not expecting quite this much resistance. I think the Hoarder is hilarious and very Minmatar and I would have thought more people agreed.

But anyway, I've talked with Art today, and they were happy to allow me to shift the models around as fit best based on feedback, so the Mammoth will go back to being the largest Minmatar industrial in terms of capacity. Thanks those of you that gave civil input on this =)



im very disapointed ... imho the hoarder is the better model for a matar industrial
i dislike the mammoth not because ist "ugly" but because its a very uncreative design
Rabbit P
Nuwa Foundation
Fraternity.
#362 - 2013-06-20 14:25:51 UTC
Badger has 5 low
but the 18588m3 maximum capacity come from just 4 T2 expanders
3700(base) * 1.25 (ship bonus) * 1.15^3 (3 T1 expander rigs) * 1.275^4 (4 T2 expanders) = 18588

the maximum capacity will be 23700 if use all five low with T2 expanders

Rise, could you please double check is it a typo? or I just miss something?
Orakkus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#363 - 2013-06-20 14:32:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Orakkus
CCP Rise wrote:

What do we say to the Amarr Ice miner who has to cross train to Gallente?


Um, to quote CCP...

"HTFU"

It might help the situation if you give us some info on what additional industry changes you all are tossing about in your minds. In general, and usually with a bit of prodding from electrical devices that go "buzz", the playerbase might be more willing to let things lie if we had more info on those changes. Change some of the info to be not subject to NDE and let the CSM run interference while you ponder the changes.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#364 - 2013-06-20 14:34:56 UTC
Rabbit P wrote:
Badger has 5 low
but the 18588m3 maximum capacity come from just 4 T2 expanders
3700(base) * 1.25 (ship bonus) * 1.15^3 (3 T1 expander rigs) * 1.275^4 (4 T2 expanders) = 18588

the maximum capacity will be 23700 if use all five low with T2 expanders

Rise, could you please double check is it a typo? or I just miss something?


Also badger mark II has more armour than shields .... intentional?

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Dave Stark
#365 - 2013-06-20 14:38:58 UTC
so then, now the mammoth debacle is over.

are there any plans to make t1 industrials attractive to orca owners, or are we allowed to sit in our orcas and be all smug that we have more ehp, cargo, and a faster align time with a mwd than any of the t1 industrials (not that align time is a selling point for any one since every one's align time will be 10s with an mwd)?
Meytal
Doomheim
#366 - 2013-06-20 14:49:03 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
This would have been the only case in the whole game of one race having access to a role that wasn't balanced in some way for the other races with another ship.

Scorpion vs ... ?
Vayn Baxtor
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#367 - 2013-06-20 14:49:03 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hey guys

Just catching up on the thread. Still hoping to get back to you later today after I've been able to talk with art to get final word on the Mammoth/Hoarder issue.

I can't comment on all your feedback right this moment, but I'll try to hit a few points:

On the Mammoth - As some of you seem to be joining the thread late or not reading the OP, please keep in mind that nothing is changing with the Mammoth model, and it isn't leaving the game. We are merely shifting roles around in a way that will likely make the Hoarder more popular.

On "it wasn't broke, why change it" - I can understand that in a way it didn't feel broken, maybe because there isn't a lot of direct competition between them, but it really was. Tiering has just as many problems here as it does in combat ships. By removing tiers we're adding more legitimate choices for a certain job, which means more interesting gameplay.


It is certainly impossible to please everyone, so I for one wouldn't be surprised to see this ping-pong going back and forth. Think you know best already that no matter how much you polish, somebody else is ready to *****.

The move wasn't bad, by the way. After all, Hoarder was just a stepladder for the Mammoth because Mammy simply has more space.

Indeed, there are many ways to make ships interesting. But I would still add (by my opinion):
We don't essentially need three different haulers with each having more cargo m³ than another. One "big stuff" hauler like the Mammoth candidate is enough. Hoarder could be the specialized PI-runner or whatever else. This could somewhere be done for each race.

Or just add new industrial branches related to a specialized-industrial and combat-variant.


Quote:


Finally a quick note on "special bays" - We talked about this option quite a bit here at the office, and also with the CSM. While it does sound fun to add some new purpose (and new depth as a result) to haulers, there were simply too many problems to make this option seem worthwhile right now. There are issues with the level of specialization as it relates to t1 vs t2 ships. There were issues about equality of access, this being the case especially if we gave special bays to only the extra Iterons and the extra Minmatar ship, but also being the case if we gave one special bay to each race. What do we say to the Amarr Ice miner who has to cross train to Gallente? The idea has value, but with new industry work coming down the pipe, we would rather wait a while than assign a problematic role now.


Okay, if there is this big industrial revamp thing coming, waiting is best move.
I still don't see a problem with cloning the hulls for different industrial tasks. Pretty much not different than seeing little design differences between a t1 and t2 frigate.

But we'll wait - and go nerdrage when the industrial work commeth.

Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all.

Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#368 - 2013-06-20 14:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
gonna put the concept of the 3 roles for industrials like this:

speed industrial: +5% cargo, agility and maximum velocity per lvl

tank industrial: +5% cargo and tank per lvl (be it shield or armor)

cargo industrial (AKA mini freighter): +10% cargo per lvl

of course this means that at racial industrial V you have one ship with 25% more cargo than the other 2, working as intended. while some ships would reach out the mark of 40k m3 they still wouldnt get close to what other industrial ships have, for example the orca, which can get almos 200k m3 fully cargoed.

now, what happens with the DST and the Blockade Runners?, the Blockade Runner would come after the speed industrial, adding the double of bonus (+10% cargo, agility and max velocity per lvl), same for the DST in relation with the tank industrial (+10% cargo and tank per lvl, armor or shield)

now, there's still a ship left, but the 3rd industrial role is intended to converge into freighters.

but we have 2 races which use only 2 industrials (Caldari and Amarr), while Gallente use 5. instead of leaving 4 ships useless, the idea is to put the art department into creating 2 aditional industrials, one for Amarr and one for Caldari, this giving it same ground as Minmatar, and use the Iteron I, III and V as the dedicated gallente industrials (maybe with Iteron II and IV as mid ground between each role)

the configuration would be then:

Amarr:

-Speed Hauler -> Sigil

-Tank Hauler -> Bestower

-Mini Freighter -> new hull required

Caldari:

-Speed Hauler -> Badger

-Tank Hauler -> Badger Mk II

-Minifreighter -> Badger Mk III (new hull required)

Minmatar:

-Speed Hauler -> Wreathe

-Tank Hauler -> Hoarder

-Mini Freighter -> Mammoth (they would still have the Mastodon as the DST of course, same bonus applied but it would need a change in its attributes in that case for leaving it in ground with what would be a T2 Hoarder)

Gallente:

-Speed Hauler -> Iteron

-midgrown between speed and tank -> Iteron II

-Tank Hauler -> Iteron III

-mid ground between tank and cargo -> Iteron IV

-Mini Freighter -> Iteron V

this looks better than what its planned right now, and doesnt leave industrial ships out of the equation... now in order to implement this i suggest that youd leave this rebalance to the winter expansion instead of shoving it for Odyssey 1.1, which is too soon BTW..
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#369 - 2013-06-20 14:55:40 UTC
Rabbit P wrote:
Badger has 5 low
but the 18588m3 maximum capacity come from just 4 T2 expanders
3700(base) * 1.25 (ship bonus) * 1.15^3 (3 T1 expander rigs) * 1.275^4 (4 T2 expanders) = 18588

the maximum capacity will be 23700 if use all five low with T2 expanders

Rise, could you please double check is it a typo? or I just miss something?


Wow, can't believe I missed this until now - thanks for catching. The Badger will be 6 mid 4 low - sorry for that. We really need to make a script for turning my design sheets into forum posts so I stop messing these numbers up =(

@ccp_rise

Tenchi Sal
White Knights of Equestria
#370 - 2013-06-20 15:04:20 UTC
i really enjoy the model of the hoarder. infact, even though the mammoth has more cargo space, all my characters fly hoarders instead. its just the best looking industrial ship in the game period. i'd like to see the hoarder take on the role of being agile.

i think one part of eve people almost always forget is mining and distribution missions. hoarder can fill in the role of being really good for distribution missions. we already have a ship for PI. why make another?
SubStandard Rin
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#371 - 2013-06-20 15:06:59 UTC
Yay ... Mamoth is back as prime Mimatar Hauler !! Big smile


ty for listeneing to us whining. ;-)


Still now once the gun smoke have cleared why don't we go for 3 haulers / race instead ?
we could have more specialized roles on the last type

and i know its alot to ask for but i think both Amarr and Caldari are worth two new shiny indy ship.










Nullshadow
Vacancy Pulse
#372 - 2013-06-20 15:11:31 UTC
I am late to the thread, but I would like to thank everyone involved for the switch to keep the Mammoth as the large Minmatar hauler. I have a personal attachment to it and often haul in a Mastodon even though I have better options available. The Hoarder model is good too but it is less iconic for me.

I also would like to say that I think it is reasonable to drop to 2 hauler hulls per race and repurpose the "extra" industrials for new roles at a later point. I understand wanting to avoid homogenization but there is a difference between options that add interesting complexity that options that do not. Having a lot of ways to blow things up with varying strengths and weaknesses adds depth to the game, but for hauling having 12 variations on size and agility with more midpoints does not add much over having "merely" 8 clustered around 2 extremes. People are going to gravitate to the extremes anyway, so I feel that the "hybrid" haulers are not going to see much use and would be better off being given new dedicated roles in a later iteration.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#373 - 2013-06-20 15:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Silivar Karkun
SubStandard Rin wrote:
Yay ... Mamoth is back as prime Mimatar Hauler !! Big smile


ty for listeneing to us whining. ;-)


Still now once the gun smoke have cleared why don't we go for 3 haulers / race instead ?
we could have more specialized roles on the last type

and i know its alot to ask for but i think both Amarr and Caldari are worth two new shiny indy ship.












this and i propose it again, its better to have 3 industrial roles like with the barges, withouth leaving ships out of it, than having only 2 and leaving 4 hulls out of it....

the case with the art department doesnt matter, they made the venture with the rebalance of the logistic ships, why we shouldnt have 1 new hull for the Amarr and the Caldari?, that is being lazy....
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#374 - 2013-06-20 15:13:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Gankers throughout high sec are rejoicing, deeming you their new messiah.


I wish they would come post in the thread to raise my spirits a bit.



do not worry i still lub you <3

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#375 - 2013-06-20 15:20:50 UTC
I wrote a thing: http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/2013/06/20/t1-industrials-and-the-value-of-skills/

Short version:

Give Amarr and Caldari a best of breed Tanky hauler and a large hauler.
Give Minmatar a less tanky one, a smaller large one, and a speedy one.
Give Gallente the least tanky tanky one. The smallest large one. and 3 specialist ones. Ore, Hangar+refit, Gas.

Thus, all skills have their draw, and no ships are 'useless'

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#376 - 2013-06-20 15:21:11 UTC
hopefully this is just step one... and like you said about fozzie saying might as well do something now even though its not the perfect solution.

but i think it would be great if the gal ones had a little more divercity.

such as:

itty mrk2 could have a small cargo bay but it cant be scanned by cargo scanners

or mrk3 could have a fleet hangar

or mrk4 could have a really large cargo bay but it only holds ice or gas...



you know more roles

perhaps if the art departmetn in the future could create. 3 new badgers and 2 ammar/minni industrials we could have more roles then just speed/cargo.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#377 - 2013-06-20 15:21:55 UTC
Well, now that the great hoarder uprising of 2013 has been put down we should get to some important questions.

What about the stats that aren't shown? I'm particularly interested in warp speed, but max range, scan res, targets, etc could be important to some people, and it would be nice just to look at capacitor stats just so we can complain about something that doesn't really matter.

I think these ships should have a role bonus, even if it's something lame like decreasing cap use to initiate warp.

I also would like to know why the badger has 1187.5 CPU at electronics 5, and why the other industrials have equally obnoxious CPU's.
Dark Stryke
Doomheim
#378 - 2013-06-20 15:22:05 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Finally a quick note on "special bays" - We talked about this option quite a bit here at the office, and also with the CSM. While it does sound fun to add some new purpose (and new depth as a result) to haulers, there were simply too many problems to make this option seem worthwhile right now. There are issues with the level of specialization as it relates to t1 vs t2 ships. There were issues about equality of access, this being the case especially if we gave special bays to only the extra Iterons and the extra Minmatar ship, but also being the case if we gave one special bay to each race. What do we say to the Amarr Ice miner who has to cross train to Gallente? The idea has value, but with new industry work coming down the pipe, we would rather wait a while than assign a problematic role now.


Why not just stick with the one bay, 'freight bay'. We don't need 'x special PI bay, or fuel bay, or whatever', just a strait freight bay that is identical to the current cargo bays.

I can't believe it is such a difficult thing as you've already installed it on five different classes of ship hulls as ore holds (mining frigate, barges, exhumers, indy command and cap indy command). The groundwork already exists in other areas, it gets around the eternal balancing problem with shield vs armor lines regarding cargo expanders, it's just an all around easier fix then juggling stats and slots around endlessly.
Zaxix
Long Jump.
#379 - 2013-06-20 15:24:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
On "it wasn't broke, why change it" - I can understand that in a way it didn't feel broken, maybe because there isn't a lot of direct competition between them, but it really was. Tiering has just as many problems here as it does in combat ships. By removing tiers we're adding more legitimate choices for a certain job, which means more interesting gameplay.

Some people have said things like, you've changed a class with X ships into a class with only 2 ships (or some equivalent) - To me this is really hard to understand. The part that makes sense is that by changing the skill requirements(which is happening for all t1 ships in the game as part of tiericide), you went from a choice of ship based on how much you wanted to train, to just choosing the biggest cargo from day 1. This part is not negotiable as it comes from the overall tiericide effort. With that being the case, this balance work changes a class that had one option, to a class that hopefully has at least 8, based on racial preference and purpose.

I would really like to hear the logic being applied to changes in racial cargo space. While there is much gnashing of teeth about the Itty 5, it appears that Minnie haulers got smacked far worse (someone check my math on that). It may be a bit of an overstatement, but switching these up is a bit like suddenly making Amarr ships missile boats and turning Gallente into artie ships. I reiterate my question from an earlier post: is this going to affect the freighter cargo size? It would be hard for you to justify changing the racial cargo sizes at the T1 hauler level without applying to freighters whatever logic was used to change the T1 haulers. This mere 16 pages is nothing compared to what will happen if someone messes with the Charon.

This rebalance is a cosmetic effort at best. Very little will change, except that my Mammoth will hold much more than it used to. People will continue to select cargo over all other stats and keep their cargo value below whatever the ganking profit threshold is. Most T1s will still be hauling ore. Everyone who is working in losec/nosec will still be using cloaky haulers and anyone who uses a T1 in losec/nosec will simply fit the cargo class hauler for cloak/MWD. These are not PvP ships and they should be approached with a different mindset. Tank/speed is for crashing the gate but it does no good against bumping and if you can't get off teh grid, you're dead.

Bokononist

 

Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#380 - 2013-06-20 15:36:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Finally a quick note on "special bays" - We talked about this option quite a bit here at the office, and also with the CSM. While it does sound fun to add some new purpose (and new depth as a result) to haulers, there were simply too many problems to make this option seem worthwhile right now. There are issues with the level of specialization as it relates to t1 vs t2 ships. There were issues about equality of access, this being the case especially if we gave special bays to only the extra Iterons and the extra Minmatar ship, but also being the case if we gave one special bay to each race. What do we say to the Amarr Ice miner who has to cross train to Gallente? The idea has value, but with new industry work coming down the pipe, we would rather wait a while than assign a problematic role now.
Simple, really. You tell the Amarr miner the same thing you tell someone when they want to use lasers instead of blasters: train the skill. When did it become ok to coddle people from training a skill? Besides, we're talking about 30 minutes unmapped to train it! Thirty minutes!

If I want to train shield tanking, I train the skill. If I want to use tech 2 drones, I train the skill. Nothing is different about having an actual role for each of the race's haulers, even the 5x Iterons. But it will be unbalanced! Not really, if you're creative about how you implement them:

For example, each Iteron, or just the II through V, have a "specialized" bay, carrying, say, ~40k m3 of a specialized good. Ore, PI, assembled ships, smuggled goods, salvaged goods, ammo, etc. But the largest "generic" Iteron hold is just ~20k or so. A total of 60k for specialized goods, but only 20k for generic, carry-all.

Well, for Amarr, you give them a ~50k m3 "generic" hold. So they can carry slightly less, but it's more flexible when they do. You can do this sort of dance with each race, so there's benefits to each. As it stands now with the current proposals, it just looks like 4 of the same ships and 4 other same ships. Why even bother? The differences are so minuscule that it doesn't really make sense to have a racial variant that is more-or-less the same as the others. I'm pretty sure that's why we don't have Minmatar Retrievers and Gallente Retrievers and Amarr Retrievers, etc.

I realize that Industrials aren't as exciting as other ship lines. They don't do much of anything special. They don't have bonuses to weapon optimals, shield strength, warp speed, etc. But that doesn't mean that every pilot doesn't interact with them at some point, and some even make their careers on carrying goods around. Earlier in the thread, someone mentioned something interesting that could be done: give the races some sort of flair. Their suggestion was to have Amarr get a bonus to tractor beam range, Caldari a +1 warp str, etc. Fun bits to give players a real choice of what to fly.

Because right now, there's going to be a serious lack of choice. Industrialists are going to buy the biggest, and instead of seeing long space trucks everywhere, we're just going to see golden pods flying around. Same stuff, different day. :-/

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