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[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials

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Author
Orakkus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#201 - 2013-06-19 19:48:55 UTC
I predicted this would be a much harder task than CCP anticipated.

First off, while the art department has done some amazing things lately, saying that the Hoarder looks better than the Mammoth is crazy. Keep the Mammoth as the heavy hauler!

Second, after reviewing the stats presented, I think this needs to be redone from the beginning. It would be kinda cool to see what neat ideas you had, and pass them along to the CSM to see what they think and get their feed back.

As far as what changes should have been done, well.. I think some similiar tasks are in order between the races:

Each Race should have a Heavy Hauler whose only task is to move as much as it can from point A to point B. (Bestower, Mammoth, Iteron V, Badger) That's as far as you need to go with the similiarities between races. Outside of that, stretch your imaginations.. BE UNFAIR.

The Minmatar, as a former slave race, fighting for constant survival, is going to be more skilled at running blockades and circumventing police forces - so let the Wreathe become a super agile, small sig radius, fast ship with small carrying capacity and weak defenses. Throw some unfairness in the mix and give the Hoarder the ability to "hide" its cargo from cargo scanners (or display dummy cargo instead.)

The Amarr's Sigil, having been developed by a people who try and dominate others, should have a fast hauler that is heavily armed and armored, able to hold its own against cruiser class ships.. though not very agile or with a fast warping ability.

The Gallente, promoters of a free enterprise society, would have developed a whole range of ships, one trading Warp Speed for cargo space (Iteron). Another (Iteron II) copying the Amarr's Sigil as a Heavily Armed and armored transport (though not as effectively), yet another (Iteron III) trying to copy the Minmatar's smuggler ships. The Iteron IV can round out the list by sharing a capability of the Caldari, being a non-capital ship that can haul rigged ships anywhere.

The Caldari, industrial giants that they are, should have an industrial that can haul rigged ships in the Badger Mark II.

Now, let me address the point about any "Unfair" or remarks about homogenization(sp?), the fact that you are changing the skillset for all of these ships to be accessible at industrial level I really invalidates any argument that one race can/can't have capabilities of another. By dropping the skills necessary down to such a low level, it should not be a concern anymore because the training for any ship in any of those races can be easily attained.

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

chaosgrimm
Synth Tech
#202 - 2013-06-19 19:52:23 UTC
When I think "ugliest ship in Eve Online", I think hoarder.

Save the space mammoths.
sembur
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#203 - 2013-06-19 19:55:52 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
About the Mammoth: I just checked in with Art briefly and they confirmed that they simply don't like the way the Mammoth looks. I'll point them to this thread and see what they have to say about your feedback =)

I love the Mammoth's looks. Coincidentally, I really think the Hoarder is terrible looking.
Then again I prefer the pest to the phoon. Big smile

The Mammoth has, for a very long time, been a best-in-class hauler, providing one of the better buffers, not the worst agility, and a good storage capacity - and was available for a moderate training time. This is a really abrasive change to that legacy.

Please revisit this hoarder/mammoth discussion one more time, but at the end of the day this is a T1 hauler. I'll reprocess all of them for minerals and move on with my life. I'm looking forward to the new age of HACs on the horizon.

Pirate
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#204 - 2013-06-19 19:56:16 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
Now, let me address the point about any "Unfair" or remarks about homogenization(sp?), the fact that you are changing the skillset for all of these ships to be accessible at industrial level I really invalidates any argument that one race can/can't have capabilities of another. By dropping the skills necessary down to such a low level, it should not be a concern anymore because the training for any ship in any of those races can be easily attained.



The argument is (valid or not):

Skill X unlocks 2 ships. Skill Y unlocks 5. Why do they cost the same?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Varren Dar'khel
Flux Divinity
#205 - 2013-06-19 19:58:07 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
About the Mammoth: I just checked in with Art briefly and they confirmed that they simply don't like the way the Mammoth looks. I'll point them to this thread and see what they have to say about your feedback =)


Quite simply we don't give a rat's ass what the art team likes. We are the PLAYERS you make the game for US.

Or have you forgotten Incarnagededon already.
James Rah Sell
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2013-06-19 19:58:30 UTC
I personally love the mammoth and I don't understand the decision to use the hoarder as the main minmatar hauler. Beyond the basic design, the biggest issue I have is the size of the hoarder model. I realize this is a game, but such a small ship (compared to the other large hold haulers) should not have the largest cargo bay, especially if there is an existing, much larger model that fits the theme. Perhaps if the hoarder was scaled up or remodeled it would make more sense, but such an effort is pointless when the mammoth already exists.
Kurron
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#207 - 2013-06-19 19:59:07 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
[
The argument is (valid or not):

Skill X unlocks 2 ships. Skill Y unlocks 5. Why do they cost the same?


If three of those ships are useless, does it matter?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#208 - 2013-06-19 20:02:09 UTC
Kurron wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

The argument is (valid or not):

Skill X unlocks 2 ships. Skill Y unlocks 5. Why do they cost the same?


If three of those ships are useless, does it matter?


No ship should be useless though.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Orakkus
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#209 - 2013-06-19 20:03:06 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:


The argument is (valid or not):

Skill X unlocks 2 ships. Skill Y unlocks 5. Why do they cost the same?


The cost is time, and while there is a difference per se, the difference would be negliable. Oh, as a Gallente pilot you just need to train Gallente Industrials 1, where as a Minmatar pilot would have to train Gallente Frigate to III before going to Gallente Industrials I? the training difference would still be less than a day, plus it would give the Minmatar pilot the benefit of trying another race (which most will likely do anyways).

He's not just famous, he's "IN" famous. - Ned Nederlander

Kurron
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#210 - 2013-06-19 20:06:26 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Kurron wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:

The argument is (valid or not):

Skill X unlocks 2 ships. Skill Y unlocks 5. Why do they cost the same?


If three of those ships are useless, does it matter?


No ship should be useless though.


I agree, which is why they should implement my idea about specialist haulers for the extra hulls. Big smile
Zifrian
The Pannion Domin
#211 - 2013-06-19 20:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Appreciate the focus and agree on two major points, too many ittys and homogenization. That's what is kind of weird to me.

Getting rid of three of the ittys, yeah no value add but they really don't add much any more with the skill changes. But it really doesn't matter to me if they are left in (assuming no new abilities are added as you say).

However, on the homginzation....I disagree that there are really only two aspects. That might be mostly true but there is a lot you can do with those and the fact that null transport is really all about not getting ganked. For instance, a T2 hauler that has the ability to fit a interdiction nullifier...give it either slow as hell align time with tank possibilities are make it paper thin...both with a small cargo m3. I would cross train for that. Add the ability for one T2 industrial to fit micro jump drives. How about a bonus to ECM?

On the cargo aspect, what about holds with compression for certain types of items....ie a mineral bay with 100% m3 bonus? Gas? Ore? What about a t2 with a ship bay only?

I think you can do a lot here but my perspective is what incentive do I have to cross train to get more choices. If you are thinking from how do we get more options easier, then you probably won't solve the homogenization issue.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#212 - 2013-06-19 20:08:50 UTC
Orakkus wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:


The argument is (valid or not):

Skill X unlocks 2 ships. Skill Y unlocks 5. Why do they cost the same?


The cost is time, and while there is a difference per se, the difference would be negliable. Oh, as a Gallente pilot you just need to train Gallente Industrials 1, where as a Minmatar pilot would have to train Gallente Frigate to III before going to Gallente Industrials I? the training difference would still be less than a day, plus it would give the Minmatar pilot the benefit of trying another race (which most will likely do anyways).



No frigate requirement any more :) That was removed in Odyssey.

I did say 'valid or not'. :)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Zifrian
The Pannion Domin
#213 - 2013-06-19 20:25:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
CCP Rise wrote:
For people focused on homoginization: The problem here is that we don't have a complex purpose that we are lazily fulfilling by having every ship do it the same way, what we have is a very simple purpose and far too many ships meant to fulfill it. I think the division between the 2 roles outlined here is functional, and adds a bit of depth to a relatively straight forward job, but what many of you are asking for is basically new jobs. As some have mentioned above, adding entirely new purposes to t1 industrials, or subdividing the current one adds a lot of complexity and doesn't even approach the issue of balance within the class we already have and use.

We talked about specialized bays and other unique purposes, but ultimately decided that, for now, it was important to make sure that pilots from races other than Gallente weren't compelled to cross train for an Iteron 5, and also that there was at least one reasonable alternative within your race depending on what purpose you had in mind. We want to improve on industry in general, but that is a much bigger proposition and I don't think t1 industrials is the right starting point.

I'll just say that this approach is boring to me. Why does that matter? Because I'm 100mill plus sps now and like many others I know in is situation are at the point where there needs to be more variety to the game to keep me interested. Maybe that doesn't matter, but this 'we want everyone to have the ability to do the same basic function' isn't keeping with the spirit of why I've played this long. You did the same thing to scanning IMO. Specialization, at least at the T2 level, should be about specific jobs. But at the rate you are gong (bombers anyone?) I don't see any point to training other races because ill eventually have the same function as everyone else anyway.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder

Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#214 - 2013-06-19 20:27:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
Meh, industry in Eve could do with more diversion.

You know, to avoid homogenization of the industrial ships you could perhaps look into making some of them better at carrying certain stuff than others. You know you can make dedicated cargo bays, right?

Say, all ships in the Iteron line get their own Quafe storage bay.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Reppyk
The Black Shell
#215 - 2013-06-19 20:30:16 UTC
Stealth gank nerf #17.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

RoAnnon
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#216 - 2013-06-19 20:32:16 UTC
Anika Ataru wrote:
...Unless getting people killed by suicide gankers is your intention, hm.


No matter what the Devs say about balance, the bottom line for CCP as a corporation is the bottom line. If they can get more ships destroyed, carrying higher ISK value per KM, the more likely people will buy plex to replace their stuff.

So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter.

Broadcast4Reps

Eve Vegas 2015 Pub Crawl Group 9

Houston EVE Meet

Alkyria Decile
Delstar Corp
#217 - 2013-06-19 20:32:51 UTC
On the topic of the itteron 2-4, would they ever be considered for a "buy out" by ore? Slightly larger project than just switching stats, easier than brand new art. Could rationalize it by ore expanding quickly into the commercial market, and needing new assembly lines quickly so they buy the itty designs and re-purpose them.

Could have an ore/mineral hauler an ice hauler, or any other specialized role for that matter, and a generic all purpose hauler if you'd rather train ore than one of the major factions.

Kraschyn Thek'athor
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#218 - 2013-06-19 20:34:20 UTC
I would wish more diversity.
You try to avoid the Shitstorm, by not taking and giving stuff for diversity.



Make one allrounder Industrial for every race. In the range of the current Mammoth.

Make an bigger transport, a lot less tank bulk carrier (Iteron V). Something that can carry more, but is gank vulnerable.

Make an specialised PI and PI Products Transport.

Make an big Ice Product Carrier. javascript:if%20(typeof%20posting=='undefined'||posting!=true)%20{posting=true;__doPostBack('forum$ctl00$PostReply','');}

A Industrial with an big ship maintenance hangar for transporting ships.

.....

Make an Industrial with Highslots for 6x Small Weapons. Doesn't matter if you think there is a role. Give people stuff to experiment, to try new stuff.


Be creative.

Let us choose!

You're risk adversiv, and that is boring!
Lister Vindaloo
5 Tons of Flax
#219 - 2013-06-19 20:35:31 UTC
So the Caldari get their Ewar cruiser but the Gallente don't get specialist haulers? That sounds fair.
You've got 5 hulls there that you've stated you want to keep for historical reasons, yet you don't want to do anything interesting with them? What a wasted opportunity.
You can add a few other specialist haulers later but you won't need to because any one who actually wants to fly a hauler will spend the paltry time necessary to access the specialist ones.

I realize these are only haulers but why waste a rebalance? Do it properly the first time.
Nex Killer
Perkone
Caldari State
#220 - 2013-06-19 20:49:48 UTC
Be cool when they do the T2 rebalance they make one into a mini JF it has half the cargo hold and can jump half the distance. :D