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EVE's Industry....
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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#21 - 2013-06-18 19:17:50 UTC
Thelonious Blake wrote:
In my opinion the OP has a point.

Mining in wormholes is just not worth the risk after moving grav sites to anomalies. I can see CCP's logic on this applied to null sec and miners there having the instant intel that is local chat warping out when seeing a neut in system, but in wormholes there's no local. The d-scan is not a solution to this because of cloaks. It was fair enough before when one could get into the wormhole, scan the sites and wait to see if any miner goes to the site, then go and try to kill that miner. It was fair because it required effort. Now you don't need to do all that stuff, you just hop into the wormhole and warp to the grav site...

I think CCP should consider moving grav sites back to signatures only for w-space. In the rest of space it's OK gravs to be anomalies because of local.

OP, I give you +1 and don't feed the trolls because they will come for more.

Edit: You should change the name of the thread to "Ore Sites in Wormholes" or something like this.



I wasnt saying he didnt have a point, Im saying though that he is refusing to concede that those of us that think that mining in a WH should be harder than null not easier also have a point.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Thelonious Blake
Miles Research and Development
#22 - 2013-06-18 19:21:09 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
I wasnt saying he didnt have a point, Im saying though that he is refusing to concede that those of us that think that mining in a WH should be harder than null not easier also have a point.


Is mining in WH worth more ISK/h than in null for it to be harder?
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#23 - 2013-06-18 19:22:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Thelonious Blake wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
I wasnt saying he didnt have a point, Im saying though that he is refusing to concede that those of us that think that mining in a WH should be harder than null not easier also have a point.


Is mining in WH worth more ISK/h than in null for it to be harder?


Well the OP has said that in his experience it is worth more Isk/H


I didnt think that was the case, but I will defer to him on that point because I dont mine in WHs

EDIT: Sorry he said than in Low. I dont know his opinion of how it compares to null

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Thelonious Blake
Miles Research and Development
#24 - 2013-06-18 19:27:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Thelonious Blake
BinaryData wrote:
Wormholes are an excellent source for minerals. My wormhole, since the latest expansion has 2 - 4x more gravs in it, than I ever had before. I have 4 gravs right now, and 2 of them are Isolated Cores, which give Mercoxit. The last time we had one of those was 3 months ago. They may not be as good as nullsec, but they are still better than having nothing. You forget, to live in null you need a powerful alliance or to rent space. Wormholes are fairly free, unless you buy one. Point is, its better to have that little bit, than to have none at all. Supplemental income is better than no income.


BinaryData wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Why should a WH be safer than null anyway?

It shouldn't, and again you missed my point. And I did address it, quite well might I add. Lowsec sucks for industry. You can get better materals in the wormhole, than you could there. The risk is worth the reward, or it used to be.

So, do you want to switch from building battleships that take x amount of time and make y profit, to building frigates that require more time for the same resources?

Do the math, figure out how many rifts it'll take to match the cost of a Rokh. Figure out the x time it takes to build ONE, and all the minerals it'll take, then figure how long it'll take for the battleship to build. That'd be like burning half 100$ to say you've only got 50$. Doesn't make sense.

Wormholes shouldn't be safer than null, what I'm saying is that CCP should've left grav sigs alone for wormholes, and did the current patch to everywhere else. Wormholes were already a pain for a small corporation, now its even harder to do that.

5$ says you'll miss the point, again..


You owe him 5$

Edit for clarification: You can get better minerals in wormholes than in lowsec, not null sec.

Edit once more: And the OP's oppinion that you didn't have the patience to read.

BinaryData wrote:
Wormholes shouldn't be safer than null, what I'm saying is that CCP should've left grav sigs alone for wormholes, and did the current patch to everywhere else. Wormholes were already a pain for a small corporation, now its even harder to do that.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#25 - 2013-06-18 19:29:50 UTC
Thelonious Blake wrote:
BinaryData wrote:
Wormholes are an excellent source for minerals. My wormhole, since the latest expansion has 2 - 4x more gravs in it, than I ever had before. I have 4 gravs right now, and 2 of them are Isolated Cores, which give Mercoxit. The last time we had one of those was 3 months ago. They may not be as good as nullsec, but they are still better than having nothing. You forget, to live in null you need a powerful alliance or to rent space. Wormholes are fairly free, unless you buy one. Point is, its better to have that little bit, than to have none at all. Supplemental income is better than no income.


BinaryData wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Why should a WH be safer than null anyway?

It shouldn't, and again you missed my point. And I did address it, quite well might I add. Lowsec sucks for industry. You can get better materals in the wormhole, than you could there. The risk is worth the reward, or it used to be.

So, do you want to switch from building battleships that take x amount of time and make y profit, to building frigates that require more time for the same resources?

Do the math, figure out how many rifts it'll take to match the cost of a Rokh. Figure out the x time it takes to build ONE, and all the minerals it'll take, then figure how long it'll take for the battleship to build. That'd be like burning half 100$ to say you've only got 50$. Doesn't make sense.

Wormholes shouldn't be safer than null, what I'm saying is that CCP should've left grav sigs alone for wormholes, and did the current patch to everywhere else. Wormholes were already a pain for a small corporation, now its even harder to do that.

5$ says you'll miss the point, again..


You owe him 5$



No, his point is STILL the same, that CCP owes him a reason for this change



He is the one missing CCPs point; that WHs should be more dangerous than Null


You are suggesting because I disagree with the OPs point of view I am automatically wrong


Thats pretty smug and pompous of you

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Thelonious Blake
Miles Research and Development
#26 - 2013-06-18 19:33:45 UTC
I am not suggesting that you're wrong because you disagree with OP's view. You have the right to do so if you have any experience on this particular topic which you don't...

And to be honest I do think that CCP owes people with his playstyle a reason for this change. Even with grav sites to sigs WHs were more dangerous than null, because of no local.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#27 - 2013-06-18 19:36:48 UTC
Thelonious Blake wrote:
I am not suggesting that you're wrong because you disagree with OP's view. You have the right to do so if you have any experience on this particular topic which you don't...




How would you know whether I do or do not?


My god, I think Im the one being trolled here.


Just because I dont mine in a WH doesnt mean I dont have alts who might or that Ive never been in one before, or have never attacked a WH mining operation.


"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Thelonious Blake
Miles Research and Development
#28 - 2013-06-18 19:38:26 UTC
Well, you show no signs or whatsoever P
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#29 - 2013-06-18 19:40:41 UTC
Thelonious Blake wrote:
Well, you show no signs or whatsoever P


Uh huh




Tell you what, why not get a book on communicating with human beings in a civilised manner while you mine there,
and maybe just maybe you might be able to make a post that isnt just your lips flapping pointlessly.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#30 - 2013-06-18 19:53:35 UTC
BinaryData wrote:
I've searched the forums a bit, found lots of raging about the Industry changes, but no CCP response to back it up, and give their reasoning for it.


This isn't a rage post, though I am quite unhappy with the Ore Site's being changed in Wormholes, makes it damn near impossible to mine now, but here it goes.


1. Why did you switch the ore sites from being cosmic sigs to System Scanner?

2. Was it because you felt people needed easier PvP or was it to make an industrialists life even harder?



I feel as if this was a slap in the face to Industrialists, especially those who multi box. It's already hard enough to live in a wormhole as an industrialist, and now that this change has happened, you can't even mine in it. Constantly getting ganked, and if you say spam dscan, I have two words for you, CLOAKY TECH 3.


I would love a CCP reply, not some ego inflated douche bag who thinks he knows what CCP is thinking. And before you rage, I did search quite a bit, I went back through the last 100 pages, and hours of searching for a post with this kind of information. I could have missed it, but I don't think so.


You won't get any more answer that you are now from the regular null sec entitled lot.
They are all proxies of the one that dropped this bomb on worm hole mining.

They all seem to conveniently forget two tiny, insignificant things:

1. In null sec, , not only are there tons of intel channels to alert anyone if bad people are on the way.
2. In null sec, there is this thing called local, which allows all bot programs to automatically dock up if a red or neutral shows up in system.

Wormholes have neither of these "features".

Can you imagine the screaming from the nullbears about this stupid change if CCP added even a 1 minute delay to local in null sec? The anom change to ore belts would be reversed out within days.
Thelonious Blake
Miles Research and Development
#31 - 2013-06-19 17:56:09 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
1. In null sec, , not only are there tons of intel channels to alert anyone if bad people are on the way.
2. In null sec, there is this thing called local, which allows all bot programs to automatically dock up if a red or neutral shows up in system.

Wormholes have neither of these "features".


Bump for CCP to see it...
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2013-06-19 17:59:15 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Thelonious Blake wrote:
In my opinion the OP has a point.

Mining in wormholes is just not worth the risk after moving grav sites to anomalies. I can see CCP's logic on this applied to null sec and miners there having the instant intel that is local chat warping out when seeing a neut in system, but in wormholes there's no local. The d-scan is not a solution to this because of cloaks. It was fair enough before when one could get into the wormhole, scan the sites and wait to see if any miner goes to the site, then go and try to kill that miner. It was fair because it required effort. Now you don't need to do all that stuff, you just hop into the wormhole and warp to the grav site...

I think CCP should consider moving grav sites back to signatures only for w-space. In the rest of space it's OK gravs to be anomalies because of local.

OP, I give you +1 and don't feed the trolls because they will come for more.

Edit: You should change the name of the thread to "Ore Sites in Wormholes" or something like this.



I wasnt saying he didnt have a point, Im saying though that he is refusing to concede that those of us that think that mining in a WH should be harder than null not easier also have a point.



That wouldn't make sense giving the nature of this thread. He specifically said he wanted to know the WHY of the change as applied to WHs. Not to compare the effect of WH mining versus null mining.

That was a point brought up by someone replying to his post (which he said he didnt want nor was asking for heh).

The fact he has a point (confirmed by you =P) only leads to the support of his question. Not a debate.

In my opinion anyways.

But it does make sense... the point of making the change as far as I could read, was to make highsec mining simplified to increase the hostility of highsec mining while being able to curtail the amount of ore gained. The natural protections of WH by its own limitations are now moot and make it worse, not better.

WH SHOULD be a lot more standalone in regards to their limited manufacturing to be able to still be efficient in their personal world (which a WH is) while trying to limit the acess to k space.

The new changes with Odyssey increase the traffic into WH for daytripping gankers which in turn almost defeats the purpose of living in a WH at all.

WH entrances and exits are now not a bottlenecking restriction for fights to keep things at a certain level, but will now seem to be a flawed mechanic because WHs don't have that special snowflake element any longer if they are going to be treated as any other k space except for a lack of local.

I for one think WHs should not have had this change. It would have been fine to leave it alone and keep the environmental differences coupled with how the WH exits work.

That way WH would be something entirely different than null/low/high.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#33 - 2013-06-19 18:02:55 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Thelonious Blake wrote:
In my opinion the OP has a point.

Mining in wormholes is just not worth the risk after moving grav sites to anomalies. I can see CCP's logic on this applied to null sec and miners there having the instant intel that is local chat warping out when seeing a neut in system, but in wormholes there's no local. The d-scan is not a solution to this because of cloaks. It was fair enough before when one could get into the wormhole, scan the sites and wait to see if any miner goes to the site, then go and try to kill that miner. It was fair because it required effort. Now you don't need to do all that stuff, you just hop into the wormhole and warp to the grav site...

I think CCP should consider moving grav sites back to signatures only for w-space. In the rest of space it's OK gravs to be anomalies because of local.

OP, I give you +1 and don't feed the trolls because they will come for more.

Edit: You should change the name of the thread to "Ore Sites in Wormholes" or something like this.



I wasnt saying he didnt have a point, Im saying though that he is refusing to concede that those of us that think that mining in a WH should be harder than null not easier also have a point.



That wouldn't make sense giving the nature of this thread. He specifically said he wanted to know the WHY of the change as applied to WHs. Not to compare the effect of WH mining versus null mining.

That was a point brought up by someone replying to his post (which he said he didnt want nor was asking for heh).

The fact he has a point (confirmed by you =P) only leads to the support of his question. Not a debate.

In my opinion anyways.

But it does make sense... the point of making the change as far as I could read, was to make highsec mining simplified to increase the hostility of highsec mining while being able to curtail the amount of ore gained. The natural protections of WH by its own limitations are now moot and make it worse, not better.

WH SHOULD be a lot more standalone in regards to their limited manufacturing to be able to still be efficient in their personal world (which a WH is) while trying to limit the acess to k space.

The new changes with Odyssey increase the traffic into WH for daytripping gankers which in turn almost defeats the purpose of living in a WH at all.

WH entrances and exits are now not a bottlenecking restriction for fights to keep things at a certain level, but will now seem to be a flawed mechanic because WHs don't have that special snowflake element any longer if they are going to be treated as any other k space except for a lack of local.

I for one think WHs should not have had this change. It would have been fine to leave it alone and keep the environmental differences coupled with how the WH exits work.

That way WH would be something entirely different than null/low/high.


Agreed

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
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