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Federation expresses dismay at Republic handling of Broteau
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Gabriel Darkefyre
Gradient
Electus Matari
#101 - 2013-06-18 11:38:23 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:

Steffanie Saissore wrote:
Captain Starfleet...I am curious to see where this goes, so I must ask: let us say that declaring war on the Minmatar is the right course of action for what they did. What is the point of the war then?


I believe the point of the war would be protecting the citizens of the Federation from random outbursts of violence from the Shakorite regime.
It's quite simple, really.


It's certainly interesting the position you are taking given your actions at the Battle of Colelie. 2 Naglfars and a Moros to your Credit, I believe.

While the position of the Republic in the Battle may be questionable, it's certainly less questionable than indiscriminately and opportunistically firing on both sides.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#102 - 2013-06-18 11:46:38 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:

While the position of the Republic in the Battle may be questionable, it's certainly less questionable than indiscriminately and opportunistically firing on both sides.


Both the Federation and the Republic Navies need to be cut down to size. Though Caine's affiliation is suspect at best and downright criminal at worst, it is laudable to defend the cluster from such tyrannical forces.
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#103 - 2013-06-18 12:09:57 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:

While the position of the Republic in the Battle may be questionable, it's certainly less questionable than indiscriminately and opportunistically firing on both sides.


Oh, I believe there's nothing questionable about that.
I have little love for either sides; which in case makes me ideal to comment on the given situation, as I'm not a Federal or a Republican sycophant like most of the posters in the thread. Just a simple, objective outlook on the matter at hand, really.
I'd say mlle. Polevhia put it nicely, but I don't like agreeing with Sansha. I'm pretty sure the feeling is mutual.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

Stillwater Corporation Recruitment Open - Angel Cartel Bloc
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#104 - 2013-06-18 12:52:31 UTC
Gabriel Darkefyre wrote:
Leopold Caine wrote:

Steffanie Saissore wrote:
Captain Starfleet...I am curious to see where this goes, so I must ask: let us say that declaring war on the Minmatar is the right course of action for what they did. What is the point of the war then?


I believe the point of the war would be protecting the citizens of the Federation from random outbursts of violence from the Shakorite regime.
It's quite simple, really.


It's certainly interesting the position you are taking given your actions at the Battle of Colelie. 2 Naglfars and a Moros to your Credit, I believe.

While the position of the Republic in the Battle may be questionable, it's certainly less questionable than indiscriminately and opportunistically firing on both sides.


While I agree with this sentiment, I would advise Republic capsuleers such as yourself to take active steps towards rapprochement with the Federation above and beyond admitting that the Republic presence was "questionable."
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#105 - 2013-06-18 12:52:43 UTC
Frankly, I welcome more comments from pirates and cultists. It really keeps the whole thing in perspective.
Endeavour Starfleet
#106 - 2013-06-18 13:17:30 UTC
Typical Republic apologists. Attempting yet again to divert attention away from the real issues. The fact that the Republic considers its allies sovereignty to be optional and the continued insults towards our laws and justice system.
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#107 - 2013-06-18 14:26:29 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Typical Republic apologists. Attempting yet again to divert attention away from the real issues. The fact that the Republic considers its allies sovereignty to be optional and the continued insults towards our laws and justice system.


Yes, well, I've just been informed by credible, highly-placed sources that I'm rubber and you are glue.
Laurienne 'Quafegirl' Cherbourg
Like Oh My Gosh I Totally Have A Corp Now
#108 - 2013-06-18 14:41:40 UTC
Andrea Okazon wrote:

Yes, well, I've just been informed by credible, highly-placed sources that I'm rubber and you are glue.


I am rubber, you are glue, what you say something something sticks to you! Yeah~! ♥

Chilled Quafe™, accept no refreshment substitute. For all of you affluent Capsuleer-types, Quafe Elite™ restaraunts can be found at many stations! Only got a few minutes to spare before that fleet-op? Swing by QuafeSnacks™ for the full taste-experience you've come to expect from Quafe, on the go!
Niko medes
Freeman Technologies
#109 - 2013-06-18 14:47:09 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:
Niko medes wrote:
The Republic Fleet that acted in a rage was unfortunate, but their passion is a part of who they are and they died trying to enact core ideals they also hold close.


Lovely. And then you get offended when I call all republicans warmongering bloodthirsty Shakor's sycophants.
What are we supposed to do, brush it aside and go 'Oh, it's alright. They are republicans, genocide is who they are.' ?
I'd suggest you quit your apologetic tone before you make more of a fool out of yourself.


Actually no I wouldn't get offended at that at all. Mostly because I can agree with that statement to an extent. Also no we aren't suppose to brush it aside, we clearly didn't at Colelie.. no Republic vessels got away from that fight. What I was suggesting in my previous response was to let them do what they wish. The Gallente protect their sovereign with all their might but not go out of their way to destroy the Republic. Leave it to the Minmatar people to rid themselves of the Republic once they deem it necessary.

I suppose if it ever came to war with the Republic, let us be passive in it. So we could confidently say no innocent Minmatar blood would be on our hands in such a conflict.

I appreciate the suggestion as well Mr. Cain, but foolishness is a matter of opinion.
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#110 - 2013-06-18 14:49:51 UTC
Laurienne 'Quafegirl' Cherbourg wrote:
Andrea Okazon wrote:

Yes, well, I've just been informed by credible, highly-placed sources that I'm rubber and you are glue.


I am rubber, you are glue, what you say something something sticks to you! Yeah~! ♥


Bounces off you -- I like the haircut, by the way.
Laurienne 'Quafegirl' Cherbourg
Like Oh My Gosh I Totally Have A Corp Now
#111 - 2013-06-18 14:52:46 UTC
Andrea Okazon wrote:

Bounces off you -- I like the haircut, by the way.


I'm off duty so I'm all like out of makeup and stuff, it was my friends idea. Glad you like it! ♥

Chilled Quafe™, accept no refreshment substitute. For all of you affluent Capsuleer-types, Quafe Elite™ restaraunts can be found at many stations! Only got a few minutes to spare before that fleet-op? Swing by QuafeSnacks™ for the full taste-experience you've come to expect from Quafe, on the go!
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-06-18 15:02:59 UTC
Niko medes wrote:

Actually no I wouldn't get offended at that at all. Mostly because I can agree with that statement to an extent. Also no we aren't suppose to brush it aside, we clearly didn't at Colelie.. no Republic vessels got away from that fight. What I was suggesting in my previous response was to let them do what they wish. The Gallente protect their sovereign with all their might but not go out of their way to destroy the Republic. Leave it to the Minmatar people to rid themselves of the Republic once they deem it necessary.


It sounds like you and I agree on this matter: The Federation should dissolve the alliance and go our seperate ways.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Niko medes
Freeman Technologies
#113 - 2013-06-18 15:36:12 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Niko medes wrote:

Actually no I wouldn't get offended at that at all. Mostly because I can agree with that statement to an extent. Also no we aren't suppose to brush it aside, we clearly didn't at Colelie.. no Republic vessels got away from that fight. What I was suggesting in my previous response was to let them do what they wish. The Gallente protect their sovereign with all their might but not go out of their way to destroy the Republic. Leave it to the Minmatar people to rid themselves of the Republic once they deem it necessary.


It sounds like you and I agree on this matter: The Federation should dissolve the alliance and go our seperate ways.


Again, let the Republic choose to dissolve an alliance with the Federation. The Federation did what it needed to do out of principle at Colelie, we need to leave it at that. If we dissolve, by principle we would be choosing to leave innocent Minmatar people to face an Amarrian Empire alone. That isn't like us in the slightest.
Derin Phobos
Kinetic Technologies
#114 - 2013-06-18 16:05:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Derin Phobos
Niko medes wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Niko medes wrote:

Actually no I wouldn't get offended at that at all. Mostly because I can agree with that statement to an extent. Also no we aren't suppose to brush it aside, we clearly didn't at Colelie.. no Republic vessels got away from that fight. What I was suggesting in my previous response was to let them do what they wish. The Gallente protect their sovereign with all their might but not go out of their way to destroy the Republic. Leave it to the Minmatar people to rid themselves of the Republic once they deem it necessary.


It sounds like you and I agree on this matter: The Federation should dissolve the alliance and go our seperate ways.


Again, let the Republic choose to dissolve an alliance with the Federation. The Federation did what it needed to do out of principle at Colelie, we need to leave it at that. If we dissolve, by principle we would be choosing to leave innocent Minmatar people to face an Amarrian Empire alone. That isn't like us in the slightest.


I agree that the Federation dissolving the alliance at this point would be a disproportionate response. Colelie was a catastrophic breakdown of diplomatic relations, but the overall reasons for the alliance existing in the first place still stand. If both parties are willing to work together, the alliance could very well be salvaged.

As far as capsuleers go, as I have said elsewhere, I encourage Republic capsuleers to seek better relations with their Federation counterparts by trying to make amends in whatever ways they can. A great rift has been opened between your two nations due, unfortunately, to Republic mishandling of the situation. And given that said mishandling resulted in the deaths of thousands of Federation navy personnel at the hands of the Republic, I do not imagine that they are in a mood to hear justifications, excuses, or rants. To borrow an Amarrian turn of phrase, this is the time to be saying "Mea culpa, mea culpa."

Your government has made a grievous diplomatic error. If you are not seeking to address and repair the damage from that error, I would at least suggest refraining from making it worse.
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-06-18 19:06:30 UTC
Niko medes wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Niko medes wrote:

Actually no I wouldn't get offended at that at all. Mostly because I can agree with that statement to an extent. Also no we aren't suppose to brush it aside, we clearly didn't at Colelie.. no Republic vessels got away from that fight. What I was suggesting in my previous response was to let them do what they wish. The Gallente protect their sovereign with all their might but not go out of their way to destroy the Republic. Leave it to the Minmatar people to rid themselves of the Republic once they deem it necessary.


It sounds like you and I agree on this matter: The Federation should dissolve the alliance and go our seperate ways.


Again, let the Republic choose to dissolve an alliance with the Federation. The Federation did what it needed to do out of principle at Colelie, we need to leave it at that. If we dissolve, by principle we would be choosing to leave innocent Minmatar people to face an Amarrian Empire alone. That isn't like us in the slightest.


I disagree with this completely. In another discussion, the metaphor of one person stabbing their friend was brought up. Honestly, if a friend of yours suddenly stabbed you in a fit of pique, and then acted as if they had done nothing wrong, would you simply go along thinking "I didn't like that, but I won't do anything about it"?

Nations are much like individuals in that they must be held accountable for their actions - whether it is other nations that hold them accountable or their own citizens is beside the point. The Republic under Shakor has shown many times that it has a complete disregard for all treaties and alliances it has signed. It must be held accountable for these choices. Should the citizens of the Republic be concerned enough about this, then they have a choice before them to either hold their leaders accountable, or to not.

You speak of the innocent Matari who would be harmed should the Federation sever its alliance with the Republic. What about the Matari citizens of the Federation who have already been harmed by the Republic? Matari are disproportionately represented within the Federation Navy, after all. Do we not owe it to their memories, and the memories of all lost at Colelie, to hold their killers responsible?

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2013-06-18 19:08:33 UTC
Derin Phobos wrote:
I agree that the Federation dissolving the alliance at this point would be a disproportionate response. Colelie was a catastrophic breakdown of diplomatic relations, but the overall reasons for the alliance existing in the first place still stand. If both parties are willing to work together, the alliance could very well be salvaged.


It very well could.

At the same time, it has been well over a month since Colelie, and the Republic shows no sign of even acknowledging that the battle happened. There is a difference between waiting to take action in order to be reasonable, and failing to take action by being a doormat.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Andrea Okazon
Laurentson INC
#117 - 2013-06-18 19:19:45 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Derin Phobos wrote:
I agree that the Federation dissolving the alliance at this point would be a disproportionate response. Colelie was a catastrophic breakdown of diplomatic relations, but the overall reasons for the alliance existing in the first place still stand. If both parties are willing to work together, the alliance could very well be salvaged.


It very well could.

At the same time, it has been well over a month since Colelie, and the Republic shows no sign of even acknowledging that the battle happened. There is a difference between waiting to take action in order to be reasonable, and failing to take action by being a doormat.


I don't want to develop this -- repeating myself to people who aren't interested -- into a full fledged bad habit, because I already have a lot of those.

But I will say this one more time: we took action by jumping a fleet of dreadnaughts on top of the Minmatar fleet and blowing it to pieces. That was the action! It was taken!
Anslo
Scope Works
#118 - 2013-06-18 19:26:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Anslo
Andrea Okazon wrote:
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
Derin Phobos wrote:
I agree that the Federation dissolving the alliance at this point would be a disproportionate response. Colelie was a catastrophic breakdown of diplomatic relations, but the overall reasons for the alliance existing in the first place still stand. If both parties are willing to work together, the alliance could very well be salvaged.


It very well could.

At the same time, it has been well over a month since Colelie, and the Republic shows no sign of even acknowledging that the battle happened. There is a difference between waiting to take action in order to be reasonable, and failing to take action by being a doormat.


I don't want to develop this -- repeating myself to people who aren't interested -- into a full fledged bad habit, because I already have a lot of those.

But I will say this one more time: we took action by jumping a fleet of dreadnaughts on top of the Minmatar fleet and blowing it to pieces. That was the action! It was taken!


She has a point. They gave us a black eye, we gave em a broken arm. Aside from political/diplomatic actions be it positive or negative, I don't see a reason to waste resources on pursuing 'justice' that's already been done.

What happened has happened. The dead were avenged, be it by the fleet or the Sebiestor's firing squad. It's over with. Why continue arguing? Doing this just makes Broteau's death complete its mission.

If this keeps up, he wins.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Shintoko Akahoshi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-06-18 19:36:51 UTC
Anslo wrote:
They gave us a black eye, we gave em a broken arm. Aside from political/diplomatic actions be it positive or negative, I don't see a reason to waste resources on pursuing 'justice' that's already been done.

What happened has happened. The dead were avenged, be it by the fleet or the Sebiestor's firing squad. It's over with. Why continue arguing? Doing this just makes Broteau's death completes its mission.

If this keeps up, he wins.


That's absolutely beside the point.

I frankly don't care about Broteau. I'm pleased that he's dead, and I'm perfectly willing to let him fade into the obscurity that he so richly deserves.

I'm not arguing for the Federation severing ties with the Republic as some sort of revenge for the attack at Colelie. I'm arguing for it because the Republic under Shakor has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to ignore any treaty or alliance in pursuit of their goals, large or small. No matter what the cost to the Federation.

Simply put, they are not a friend worth keeping.

Bio and writing

(Nothing I say is indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated)
Anslo
Scope Works
#120 - 2013-06-18 19:40:47 UTC
Shintoko Akahoshi wrote:
I'm not arguing for the Federation severing ties with the Republic as some sort of revenge for the attack at Colelie. I'm arguing for it because the Republic under Shakor has repeatedly demonstrated a willingness to ignore any treaty or alliance in pursuit of their goals, large or small. No matter what the cost to the Federation.

Simply put, they are not a friend worth keeping.


And then what do we do when Amarr moves in to kill two disenfranchised birds with one tachyon firing stone? We can't handle them alone. The Solitude incident was a tiny, tiny fleet. A full scale invasion wouldn't be so easily dropped.

If you have to think this way, don't think of them as friends. Think of them as coworkers.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]