EVE General Discussion

I posted this in another thread last night by accident thinking i had posted it here:-

To me this all seems to boil down to people wanting to "PVP" against people that have no desire to fight.
It almost seems the same as the whole "wardec argument".

If people scurry away and dock its because they have no desire to PVP with you... Removing peoples ability to make the choice is not a solution.


If you want to PVP then why don't you go looking for someone who actually wants to participate?


All i see here is -

"Miners always see me coming in my pvp ship and run away"
"When our pvp FLEET warps in; all of the solo pvpers and small gangs run away"

That's just being sensible... Its been hammered into me to "pick my fights" since I started playing yet when people choose not to fight because the odds are stacked against them the aggressor always cries about it.

Also





If AFK cloak ruins your life







What about non-productive Cyno lighting?



Tossing a flare down a rabbit warren?

I don't want to remove anyones choices or options, I simply want the mechanics which enable them to make those choices to not be braindead the way local is. Giving instant, infallible intel for zero cost and effort is dumb. It just needs tweaking, either so it's not quite as accurate and absolute, or so it requires a bit more input and effort from the people who want the benefits it gives.

As for the whole argument about looking for people who want to pvp, that is an argument that is so far beyond dumb you should just biomass yourself right now. The entire nature of the game is competitive play, making it consensual will destroy the economy, the politics, everything about this game. We're all part of a large system, we cannot remove ourselves from one or two aspects of it we do not like. We can remove ourselves from it entirely (biomass and unsub) but thats it. Hope this helps.

So you basically went on a rant about the UI aspects, despite this being completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
The discussion had nothing to do with whether or not local was a good means of providing that intel, it was simply about whether the intel should be there in the first place.

1-4 is about that aspect, your UI concerns. Well, great, whatever.
5: No, you're wrong. Who is in system is more immediately important than what is in system, and we already have a few tools available to us that tell us what is in system and where it is.
6: Every system pretty much IS this same. Your issue here isn't with local.
7: This one doesn't even make sense, but it seems to be the catch-all argument people seem to use against mechanics they don't like nowadays.

I agree


But just explaining why people think that local is bad



Personally, I thought one of the EvE mantras was "evolve or die"



Taking away local entirely is like changing the rules of the world so that you dont have to evolve to include it in your plans

What you have described is not EVE *as it exists today*. It is an idealistic view of how some players perceive that EVE should be or once was

The way EVE currently is you can completely remove yourself from PVP and still remain a very active player. Even being ganked is avoidable simply by using the resources available to everyone.
I'm not saying it should or shouldn't be like this because there is definitely benefits to how EVE currently works but regardless; even if it is not in the true spirit of EVE it certainly makes for a more successful business model...

Edit **

And i never said ganks should or shouldn't be avoidable.

Given the dynamics of the game it is as avoidable as it is possible




Changing it would simply change the parameters of what you need to do in either instance

Am I saying that? I don't know. I thought I was saying that this wasn't the subject of the thread.


Except it doesn't. Automagically working everything out for you would be giving you all the information on what, where, etc.
The only thing local does is show you who's there. I don't know how you can argue that isn't important. It is, very much so.
If you want to expand on that capability, fine, but this really isn't the thread for that.


That's wrong. System size has a very big impact on how we get information, and so do stations. But this isn't about local anymore.


That's because in EVE the star system is the smallest segment of space. You want smaller?

…and anyway, as far as intel goes, Planetside already showed how to do it without breaking things in the same year EVE came out. A ton of information data was available, but you had to process it into actual intel because on its own it told you next to nothing. A lot of what they had ten years ago could be used as templates for what an actual set of intel tools should (and shouldn't) provide.

· Indistinct and very broad “activity” highlights on the map: if a friendly unit was engaging or engaged by something, it showed up on the map. Who, what, how, or in which direction was unknown — just that violence was taking place. Lots of highlights = lots of violence.

· Very broad bands of enemy presence counters: (almost) none, small, medium, large presence. How many are in each category? No-one knowns unless you go there and count manually…

· Ability to get very specific user information (like local: a list of name), but only about a very limited number of people — no more than 10 names are listed; if there are more people than that, the system is simply flooded and you only tell that there are 10+, but no-one knows who the rest of them are. At least unless they make themselves known by yelling a lot.

· Rough force ratios. There are 100% enemies in the system. And you. No, it doesn't mean the ratio is wrong — it means you're a rounding error and you should probably call for backup or GTFO.

· Very accurate, but also very short-range (both in terms of detection and in terms of data transmission) data on enemy units. Anyone within detection range of a facility will show up for you, if they're also within detection range from you (the overview almost does this, but should be at once both better and more limited in what it provides). Also, this detection can be avoided by running silent, which is a different thing from cloaking.

· Even shorter-range detection methods, but which are mobile.

· Data networking: if any of your team-mates see it, you can see it.

Each on their own, they provide far too little or far too vague data to be of any use. It's not until you collate and cross-reference it that you can turn it into intel or actionable information. That's the kind of system EVE needs: one where everything is worthless on its own but potentially very powerful if processed correctly. One where every individual source can be subverted or disrupted, but it takes immense effort to do it to all of them.

Null Bears = Hardcore seclusionists

Afraid because if you turn Local off others could spy on them and see they do the same boring stuff HS does.
Must always hide in station so mythos of NS doesn't die.

NRDS would make for a better game for all. We surely can't have that.