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SMARTER T3 Rebalances, Please!

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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#21 - 2013-06-16 14:56:05 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
Cost is not a balancing factor? What?
Which part is causing you problems?
Cost is not a balancing factor. High cost does not balance out high performance; low cost does not balance out low performance. If something is good, it doesn't matter how much it costs because money is trivial to come by — people will get it and ignore the cheaper and worse stuff.

Quote:
Then that must be totally why CCP increased BS mineral requirements
No. The reason they increased BS mineral requirements was to get rid of the silly tiering structure — one of the components being that certain ships were easier to build for no good reason.

Quote:
It also must be why CCP lowered LP prices on the Navy Battlecruisers?
No. The reason they did that was to increase availability. Cost is a result, not a factor in anything.

Quote:
Also, just saying - "generalizing" a T3 - making it so a T3 can be fitted like a HAC but never perform as good as one, or be fitted like a recon but never perform as good as one - will make a T3 absolutely useless.
No, it will make them balanced. No cruiser should be as good as, or better than, the HAC in doing the HAC's role.

Quote:
What is the OP actually referring to? Is there actually some factual basis to back up the OPs whinging, or is it simply unsubstantiated whinging as usual?
Nothing. He's just misread a few dev statements and invented some particular doom that is (not really) coming our way that he desperately wants to avoid…
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-06-16 15:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
A well fitted T3 will often cost around a billion ISK. I agree that T3 boosts and some of the other aspects need some nerfing, but I think T3's are fine with tank and DPS right now.



Shocked


[Tengu, Cheapo T3]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

10MN Afterburner II
Pithi B-Type Small Shield Booster
Large Shield Extender II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


283 reps/2sec 308 with heat (physical HP rep)

38864 EHP

633m/s

886 DPS at 39.2KM with Rage Kin

590 DPS at 59.2Km with Kin Javelin

754 DPS at 39.5KM with Kin CN Scourge

708 DPS at 39.2Km with Rage EM/Thermal/Explosive DMG types

472 DPS at 59.2KM With Javelins EM/Thermal/Explosive DMG types

603 DPS at 39.5KM with CN EM/Thermal/Explosive DMG types

Notice T1 rigs, no implants, no combat boosters taken in consideration

750 Million Isk average price, we're far behind the 1B mark considering the single cost of a B-Type Small shield booster is already around 150M

Edit because it's worth: requires :effort: training perfect skills which T3's are about

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#23 - 2013-06-16 15:06:04 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
A well fitted T3 will often cost around a billion ISK. I agree that T3 boosts and some of the other aspects need some nerfing, but I think T3's are fine with tank and DPS right now.


750 Million Isk average price, we're far behind the 1B mark considering the single cost of a B-Type Small shield booster is already around 150M


You missed the 'well fitted' part.

Apparently you aren't yet aware that T3s simply cannot function properly without hundreds of millions worth of ISK in faction and deadspace mods, and T2 rigs.

OP and other sycophants will be along to correct you shortly.
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#24 - 2013-06-16 15:12:27 UTC
I could have sworn that the whole point of a T3 was that it's over-powered.... that's supposed what justifies buying a Cruiser that costs almost as much (when fully fitted) as a (naked) carrier.....

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Bolow Santosi
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-06-16 15:16:37 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
I could have sworn that the whole point of a T3 was that it's over-powered.... that's supposed what justifies buying a Cruiser that costs almost as much (when fully fitted) as a (naked) carrier.....


Except it costs significantly less than a Carrier hull when fully fitted, unless you're stuffing it full of T2 rigs and deadspace mods. Which aren't needed at all except for a few fits where you need the CPU (Legion) or using it as an armor tanked recon for fleets (Proteus, Loki).
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#26 - 2013-06-16 15:23:45 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
A well fitted T3 will often cost around a billion ISK. I agree that T3 boosts and some of the other aspects need some nerfing, but I think T3's are fine with tank and DPS right now.


750 Million Isk average price, we're far behind the 1B mark considering the single cost of a B-Type Small shield booster is already around 150M


You missed the 'well fitted' part.

Apparently you aren't yet aware that T3s simply cannot function properly without hundreds of millions worth of ISK in faction and deadspace mods, and T2 rigs.

OP and other sycophants will be along to correct you shortly.



Ho I stand corrected and address my self in the following snowflake fit:

[Tengu, Special Snowflake]
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System

Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner
Estamel's Modified Shield Boost Amplifier
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Estamel's Modified EM Ward Field
Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

990 DPS with no heat yadaya full expensive pirate implants yadaya +OGB etc etc, sry, next time I'll wipe my self before posting

Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-06-16 15:39:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyancat Audeles
Bolow Santosi wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:

You leave out the part where faction battleships have better DPS, and more buffer tank.

A well fitted T3 will often cost around a billion ISK. I agree that T3 boosts and some of the other aspects need some nerfing, but I think T3's are fine with tank and DPS right now.


Faction battleships have better DPS with enormous sigs that make them extremely vulnerable to bombers unless you're running an armor setup.

Just looking at the Tengu and Tempest Fleet Issue fits we're using right now, The Tengu has more buffer, more resists and over 70,000 more EHP. All on a hull that takes significantly less time to train into than a T2 equivalent. Also most Tech3's will run you 600mil'ish, with a few minor exceptions, mostly if you're using them as armor tanked recon ships in a fleet.

Their DPS is fine, hell the Legion could use a decent bump in the DPS department. But the Tank and training requirements need to be adjusted.


I don't really fly shield, so you probably know more about shield than I do.

However, I do agree on training time. Tech 3 should take longer to train, and training should be the sum of the parts (of the specialized roles).

From what I've heard, the Tengu does have insane shield buffer. But the Proteus and Legion have decent buffer - not overpowered, but in between a well fit BS and BC. This brings me back to my point - balance the T3's individually, instead of a 1-change-fits-all solution.

I mostly agree with you. It's just the fact that CCP could take another one-change-fits-all solution like they did with the resist nerfs (which wasn't necessarily "bad", but it might have been better if the changes were centered around something like tech level).
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#28 - 2013-06-16 15:45:18 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
A well fitted T3 will often cost around a billion ISK. I agree that T3 boosts and some of the other aspects need some nerfing, but I think T3's are fine with tank and DPS right now.


750 Million Isk average price, we're far behind the 1B mark considering the single cost of a B-Type Small shield booster is already around 150M


You missed the 'well fitted' part.

Apparently you aren't yet aware that T3s simply cannot function properly without hundreds of millions worth of ISK in faction and deadspace mods, and T2 rigs.

OP and other sycophants will be along to correct you shortly.



Ho I stand corrected and address my self in the following snowflake fit:

[Tengu, Special Snowflake]
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System

Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner
Estamel's Modified Shield Boost Amplifier
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Estamel's Modified EM Ward Field
Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

990 DPS with no heat yadaya full expensive pirate implants yadaya +OGB etc etc, sry, next time I'll wipe my self before posting

Lol


This is a much better Tengu fit, more in line with the ideals of costing more than a Faction Battleship.

There really is no reason that T3 should cost less than billions and billions to fit. Cost is a balance factor, and the ship is too OP for regular modules.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-06-16 15:51:13 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
A well fitted T3 will often cost around a billion ISK. I agree that T3 boosts and some of the other aspects need some nerfing, but I think T3's are fine with tank and DPS right now.


750 Million Isk average price, we're far behind the 1B mark considering the single cost of a B-Type Small shield booster is already around 150M


You missed the 'well fitted' part.

Apparently you aren't yet aware that T3s simply cannot function properly without hundreds of millions worth of ISK in faction and deadspace mods, and T2 rigs.

OP and other sycophants will be along to correct you shortly.



Ho I stand corrected and address my self in the following snowflake fit:

[Tengu, Special Snowflake]
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System
Estamel's Modified Ballistic Control System

Corelum A-Type 10MN Afterburner
Estamel's Modified Shield Boost Amplifier
Pithi A-Type Small Shield Booster
Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender
Estamel's Modified EM Ward Field
Estamel's Modified Adaptive Invulnerability Field

Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Dissolution Sequencer
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Reservoir
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst

990 DPS with no heat yadaya full expensive pirate implants yadaya +OGB etc etc, sry, next time I'll wipe my self before posting

Lol


This is a much better Tengu fit, more in line with the ideals of costing more than a Faction Battleship.

There really is no reason that T3 should cost less than billions and billions to fit. Cost is a balance factor, and the ship is too OP for regular modules.


While "billions and billions" seems a bit much, I agree that T3's in their current form could cost a bit more to balance for their capabilities. This might cause a decline in the amount of exploration T3's, though, which I'm not sure if CCP wants...
Ariel Dawn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-06-16 16:03:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Ariel Dawn
Are you seriously PRE-COMPLAINING about the incoming balance changes that have yet to be actually discussed in any significant detail? You're already mad about the non-existent slight to Legions versus the other T3s?

My hands are pretty small so I don't think they're sufficient enough to provide a large enough facepalm to cover the amount of face-palming required. We need Shaquil O'Neal up in this joint.

EVE community, never change.
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#31 - 2013-06-16 16:39:08 UTC
Bolow Santosi wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
I could have sworn that the whole point of a T3 was that it's over-powered.... that's supposed what justifies buying a Cruiser that costs almost as much (when fully fitted) as a (naked) carrier.....


Except it costs significantly less than a Carrier hull when fully fitted, unless you're stuffing it full of T2 rigs and deadspace mods. Which aren't needed at all except for a few fits where you need the CPU (Legion) or using it as an armor tanked recon for fleets (Proteus, Loki).


My T3 is my solo-L4 ISK-making ship. I don't throw it into PvP, so yes... I do "stuff it full of T2 rigs and deadspace mods"... my current Proteus is still my original one from when they first came out. I've lost a few spare PvP/PvE hybrid Prots, when I was doing FW, and that taught me to never PvP with a T3, again, partly because I apparently suck at T3ing against other players.

There are three reasonable uses for a T3 ship:

1. solo missioning
2. nullsec scouting and/or scanning down plexers in low/null to provide a warpin for the rest of the fleet.
3. WH exploration

If you want to PvP in something better than a HAC, that's what Tier3 BC's are for.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Xavier Liche
ACME Mineral and Gas
#32 - 2013-06-16 17:04:29 UTC
ENTRACK Voidborn wrote:
I fully support Nyancat.

whats the point of having a ship you almost need a billion isk just to fit and lose SP when destroyed when you could get a T2 wich is a lot cheaper to buy and fit and outperforms the T3.

it would make T3 the worst investment you could make since you got the risk of losing SP besides just your ship


The point is in the flexibility. After you fit that Covert Ops cloak on your BC, come tell how it is to warp cloaked.

If you are not going to use any of those flexibility features, and try to just build a BC, guess what?
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#33 - 2013-06-16 17:05:19 UTC
Am I the only one who didn't get the memo with details of T3 balancing? Subject of the thread and OP suggest Fozzie & Rise already started to hammer some nerfs into strategic cruisers but no sticky on F&I forums seems to exist?

So, how do you know what to whine about?

Invalid signature format
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#34 - 2013-06-16 17:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarod Garamonde
This is one of the few places I'm going to solidly disagree with CCP on... they say they want more people involved in missioning and exploration... and now they're considering nerfing ships whose primary purpose is those two things. The majority of T3 owners use their ships for missions and complexes.

What is the problem with a player being able to fit a cap-stable T3 that can permatank L4 missions? It's not like you can AFK those missions... you still have to pay attention to what's happening to you. Especially if your primary DPS comes from your drones (as is the case with many PvE Proteus pilots).

So why the nerf? Nerf T3's and nobody will fly them anymore. They're too expensive to NOT be OP'd.

I'm Jarod Garamonde, and I approved this message.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#35 - 2013-06-16 17:12:09 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
So, how do you know what to whine about?
Imagination is an amazing gift.

…usually… when it doesn't cross over into hallucination. P
Jarod Garamonde
Jolly Codgers
Get Off My Lawn
#36 - 2013-06-16 17:13:08 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Am I the only one who didn't get the memo with details of T3 balancing? Subject of the thread and OP suggest Fozzie & Rise already started to hammer some nerfs into strategic cruisers but no sticky on F&I forums seems to exist?

So, how do you know what to whine about?


It has been mentioned a few times in Devblogs that a nerf is coming.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#37 - 2013-06-16 17:15:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
Tippia wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
So, how do you know what to whine about?
Imagination is an amazing gift.

…usually… when it doesn't cross over into hallucination. P


Yep, but this thread is full of "it already happened, unleash nerdrage now!" statements. So convincing I started to think I got some strange forum ban where I can only see whine without seeing which CCP dev's post caused it. My god, that was terrible feeling...

Jarod Garamonde wrote:
It has been mentioned a few times in Devblogs that a nerf is coming.


But none of those had any details on what kind of changes we can even expect. They also mentioned mach getting its axe at some point but I don't see forums running blood over it.

Invalid signature format
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-06-16 17:16:19 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
I could have sworn that the whole point of a T3 was that it's over-powered.... that's supposed what justifies buying a Cruiser that costs almost as much (when fully fitted) as a (naked) carrier.....



Back when you could get a carrier hull for 850-900 mil they were significantly cheaper if you factored insurance in.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#39 - 2013-06-16 17:16:49 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:


While "billions and billions" seems a bit much, I agree that T3's in their current form could cost a bit more to balance for their capabilities. This might cause a decline in the amount of exploration T3's, though, which I'm not sure if CCP wants...


Whatever price you just thought of we can pay it and fly fleets of them.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2013-06-16 17:19:21 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Am I the only one who didn't get the memo with details of T3 balancing? Subject of the thread and OP suggest Fozzie & Rise already started to hammer some nerfs into strategic cruisers but no sticky on F&I forums seems to exist?

So, how do you know what to whine about?


They know a nerf is on the way because they are simply far too powerful for cruisers. So they are getting the whining about their FOTM being nerfed early.