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SMARTER T3 Rebalances, Please!

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#241 - 2013-06-26 14:16:34 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:


Quote:
So price is a balancing factor, otherwise people would be flying nothing but T3's and super caps.

What?


Its almost as if he hasn't been in null sec for the past few yearsStraight
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#242 - 2013-06-26 14:22:09 UTC
I couldn't make any sense out of what he was saying with that one.

Oh god.
De'Veldrin
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2013-06-26 14:25:16 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
De'Veldrin wrote:
Acacia Eden wrote:

T3 are also expensive.


I'll say it again, since people seem to have missed it the first (dozen) time(s).

Production costs of ships are not fixed, and thus cost is not a balancing factor.


You can say it until you are blue in the face but you will still be wrong.

If T3 hulls were cheaper than T1 & T2, they would be OP. The high price creates a barrier to entry and a much bigger investment risk when flying them. So price is a balancing factor, otherwise people would be flying nothing but T3's and super caps.


Price is not a balancing factor, it is the result of balancing. The price of a T3 is determined by two factors - the desirability of the ships and the rarity of the materials used in making them. Since some of the items are, nominally, fairly rare, and the demand for the finish ship is relatively high compared to that supply, the price of the ship rises to equilibrium, just like any other market commodity.

If the desirability of the ship falls, so will the price, as the demand on the market to fill that need declines. In addition, CCP can adjust the material requirements of a ship as part of a balance pass, thus artificially influencing the price of said ship outside of normal market factors.

So I'll say it again - ships are not balanced by price.

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#244 - 2013-06-26 14:28:55 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
If T3 hulls were cheaper than T1 & T2, they would be OP.

They are OP.


No, not really, they cost 450-500m (I could buy 7 for the cost of 1 Slow Cat). While the Legion and Loki can boast pretty good Armor Tanks, in doing so, they each perform sub-500 dps.

Riot Girl wrote:
It's a consequence of the pilot's decision to fly the ship, it has nothing to do with balance.


Ship is pretty cheap, if you can't afford it, don't use it. What OP was saying, Riot Girl, is that the price of the ship is entirely decided by the players in WH (since- you know they don't use minerals to build).
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2013-06-26 14:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Riot Girl wrote:
I couldn't make any sense out of what he was saying with that one.


It's pretty simple. If money was no object and every one could afford to throw their T3 into a fight with reckless abandon, then T3s could render almost every other ship in the game obsolete but this is not the case.

Price is a balancing factor because CCP can change the drop rate of sleeper salvage to increase or decrease the price of the hull, which directly affects a players decision to fly one or not. That it a form of balance.

If price is not an issue, why don't people consider the vindicator OP in comparison to the megathron? It is accepted that the Vindi performs better because of the higher price and skill requirement.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#246 - 2013-06-26 14:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Riot Girl
Xolve wrote:
While the Legion and Loki can boast pretty good Armor Tanks, in doing so, they each perform sub-500 dps.

I don't know about Loki, but my Legion has 112k EHP and exceeds 600 DPS with both lasers and missiles.

Rek Seven wrote:
If money was no object and every one could afford to throw their T3 into a fight with reckless abandon, then T3s could render almost every other ship in the game obsolete

You're using this argument to describe why T3s are balanced?

Oh god.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2013-06-26 14:51:21 UTC
Do you have trouble reading?

I explained my point clearly, if you have a counterpoint, please, fire away.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#248 - 2013-06-26 14:53:58 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Do you have trouble reading?

I explained my point clearly, if you have a counterpoint, please, fire away.


No, I understood your post clearly this time. I found it unconvincing.

Oh god.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2013-06-26 14:54:56 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Xolve wrote:
While the Legion and Loki can boast pretty good Armor Tanks, in doing so, they each perform sub-500 dps.

I don't know about Loki, but my Legion has 112k EHP and exceeds 600 DPS with both lasers and missiles.


The new navy BC's can get around 700 dps with an 80k - 90k tank and probably cost half the price of your legion... Which ship is OP here?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#250 - 2013-06-26 14:56:19 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
navy BC

Hm.

Oh god.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2013-06-26 14:59:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Oh i see you are one of those moronic trolls people talk about. Since you have nothing valuable to contribute i won't waste my time any further. Blocked.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#252 - 2013-06-26 15:02:37 UTC
Tears successfully extracted.

Oh god.
Zircon Dasher
#253 - 2013-06-26 15:18:28 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

It's interesting to note that CCP thought that T3s would be slightly cheaper than HACs.


Out of morbid curiosity......is this because they thought HACs would be more expensive (relative to today), or because they thought WH dwellers would cannibalize their own profits?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2013-06-26 16:06:58 UTC
Given the very nature of Wormholes, I doubt that CCP intended T3's to be cheaper than T2's - can I have the source for this?
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2013-06-26 16:16:15 UTC
wtf, you guys are still beating the goddamn 2-month old festering corpse of a horse?

I thought that it was consensus that any attempt of discussion on this issue is pretty much moot due to the fact that we don't even know how T2 will be balanced.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#256 - 2013-06-26 16:37:46 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
wtf, you guys are still beating the goddamn 2-month old festering corpse of a horse?

I thought that it was consensus that any attempt of discussion on this issue is pretty much moot due to the fact that we don't even know how T2 will be balanced.

Please dont use logic in this thread.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2013-06-26 16:39:36 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
wtf, you guys are still beating the goddamn 2-month old festering corpse of a horse?

I thought that it was consensus that any attempt of discussion on this issue is pretty much moot due to the fact that we don't even know how T2 will be balanced.

Please dont use logic in this thread.

no.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Zircon Dasher
#258 - 2013-06-26 16:46:11 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
wtf, you guys are still beating the goddamn 2-month old festering corpse of a horse?

I thought that it was consensus that any attempt of discussion on this issue is pretty much moot due to the fact that we don't even know how T2 will be balanced.


Group 1 arrives at consensus about P.
Group 2 does not share Group 1's consensus about P.

Group 1 gets mad at Group 2 for not following Group 1's consensus.

vOv

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#259 - 2013-06-26 16:51:43 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
wtf, you guys are still beating the goddamn 2-month old festering corpse of a horse?

I thought that it was consensus that any attempt of discussion on this issue is pretty much moot due to the fact that we don't even know how T2 will be balanced.


Group 1 arrives at consensus about P.
Group 2 does not share Group 1's consensus about P.

Group 1 gets mad at Group 2 for not following Group 1's consensus.

vOv

kinda stupid that people are arguing about a probability of something when there is no fundament on it (xcept command subs), and the path to reach that something is an event that all we know is that it will happen sometime in the future.

it's like trying to do an omelete without having any eggs at all.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Zircon Dasher
#260 - 2013-06-26 16:54:09 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
it's like trying to do an omelete without having any eggs at all.


When has that ever stopped people from posting? Lol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.