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CCP- what r you guys thinking towards marauders? not finished stats, just general role change

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Author
EXIA MIKOSZ
Strike Birds Zero
#81 - 2013-06-17 23:34:18 UTC
no Problem i know u just put words for examples:)

For me The Best what They Can Do with Marauders is:

Keep 4 Weapons with 100%dmg Role Bonus
Keep BS and Marauders Skill Bonus
Upgrade range of tractor beams Bonus to 200%
Add Salvage/Salvage Drone Bonuses
and some small changes in Ship Electronics

Some of you i think also will ask for more shield hp and resistances
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#82 - 2013-06-18 01:48:51 UTC
EXIA MIKOSZ wrote:
If Someone like to change anything in marauders then that must be at first:
SENSOR STRENGHT
SCAN RESOLUTION
SIGNATURE

Marauders have already their Role and we no need changes in Ship Bonuses


I just wrote up an epic post to respond to this but it got eaten so I will briefly summarise

Golem vs Rattlesnake
Rattlesnake 33% more ehp
Rattlesnake 10% more dps
Golem very slightly faster (by single digits)
Golem arguably tanks better.

Whether or not you think the training time is justified is up to you but personally I'll probably just fly a rattlesnake.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#83 - 2013-06-18 06:26:13 UTC
I have a suspicion I know what the idea is

If I'm right, it's not about making the Golem better at PvE.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Kane Fenris
NWP
#84 - 2013-06-18 07:08:27 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Because Eve is a PVP game and makign them non viable for PVP was one of is not the most STUPID thing CCP ever did to any ship



what was it?
"only a sith deals in absolutes?"

yest its a pvp game, does that mean the may not be a ship which is focused on pve? no.

limiting ships to must be viable in pvp hurts the diversity .

and we might agree that eve isnt so much about pvp as it is about the chioces you have.
0racle
Galactic Rangers
#85 - 2013-06-18 08:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: 0racle
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're working on a pretty cool concept for them but it's too early to announce anything.

:ultra tease:


Please retain their role as ratting boats, though.

Chucking out their tractor beam bonus in return for normal sensor strength would be getting there. It's horrible to run through jamming sites in a marauder.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2013-06-18 09:45:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Kane Fenris wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Because Eve is a PVP game and makign them non viable for PVP was one of is not the most STUPID thing CCP ever did to any ship



what was it?
"only a sith deals in absolutes?"

yest its a pvp game, does that mean the may not be a ship which is focused on pve? no.

limiting ships to must be viable in pvp hurts the diversity .

and we might agree that eve isnt so much about pvp as it is about the chioces you have.



Your statement was "I dont see why it must be viable for PVP" . You were the one dealign in absolutes. There is no freackign reason a COMBAT ship should not be balanced for PVP. Even if that ship has a more important role on PVE than other ships.

As of now, and during 95% of eve history the best PVE ships are the good PVP ships. Makign a Battleship good for PVP will make it good for PVE more likely than not. Trying to do the other path very hardly will get anything good for the MAIN FOCUS of the game

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kane Fenris
NWP
#87 - 2013-06-18 10:05:51 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Because Eve is a PVP game and makign them non viable for PVP was one of is not the most STUPID thing CCP ever did to any ship



what was it?
"only a sith deals in absolutes?"

yest its a pvp game, does that mean the may not be a ship which is focused on pve? no.

limiting ships to must be viable in pvp hurts the diversity .

and we might agree that eve isnt so much about pvp as it is about the chioces you have.



Your statement was "I dont see why it must be viable for PVP" . You were the one dealign in absolutes. There is no freackign reason a COMBAT ship should not be balanced for PVP. Even if that ship has a more important role on PVE than other ships.

As of now, and during 95% of eve history the best PVE ships are the good PVP ships. Makign a Battleship good for PVP will make it good for PVE more likely than not. Trying to do the other path very hardly will get anything good for the MAIN FOCUS of the game



as you said i didnt say it may not be viable in pvp....
i just think in the special case of marauders the standard balance approch wont end up in getting us blanced marauders (if their focus remains beeing a self sufficient pve ship)
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#88 - 2013-06-18 10:21:35 UTC
Get rid of tractor beam range bonus and buff their Sensor strength to Bs levels
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2013-06-18 10:25:27 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Kane Fenris wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Because Eve is a PVP game and makign them non viable for PVP was one of is not the most STUPID thing CCP ever did to any ship



what was it?
"only a sith deals in absolutes?"

yest its a pvp game, does that mean the may not be a ship which is focused on pve? no.

limiting ships to must be viable in pvp hurts the diversity .

and we might agree that eve isnt so much about pvp as it is about the chioces you have.



Your statement was "I dont see why it must be viable for PVP" . You were the one dealign in absolutes. There is no freackign reason a COMBAT ship should not be balanced for PVP. Even if that ship has a more important role on PVE than other ships.

As of now, and during 95% of eve history the best PVE ships are the good PVP ships. Makign a Battleship good for PVP will make it good for PVE more likely than not. Trying to do the other path very hardly will get anything good for the MAIN FOCUS of the game



as you said i didnt say it may not be viable in pvp....
i just think in the special case of marauders the standard balance approch wont end up in getting us blanced marauders (if their focus remains beeing a self sufficient pve ship)



CCP never said they shoudl not be PVP ships. I remember very well when they were intoriduced. THe weakness to eCM was so they would not become SOLOPWONMOBILES. That means they do not like very pwoerful solo ships. But on current eve age that is not a real risk since 99.45324% of PVP is made in gagns.


Just give us a POWERFUL COMBAT SHIP. High damage, that bennefits PVE and PVP. And give some drawbacks so that the ship does not overcome everything under the sun on all scenarios. Tracking penalty is an example. Or even.. Cannot fit Warp Dirsruptors ( would make it only usable in gangs).

Another possibility would be to make the ship configurable trough some special modules.

Marauder Siege module, large damage and repair bonud with trackign penalty, no warp, but shoudl still be able to move slowboating). Great for one scenario of PVP and woudl not need to hamper any balance on PVE.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kane Fenris
NWP
#90 - 2013-06-18 10:49:55 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


CCP never said they shoudl not be PVP ships. I remember very well when they were intoriduced. THe weakness to eCM was so they would not become SOLOPWONMOBILES. That means they do not like very pwoerful solo ships. But on current eve age that is not a real risk since 99.45324% of PVP is made in gagns.


Just give us a POWERFUL COMBAT SHIP. High damage, that bennefits PVE and PVP. And give some drawbacks so that the ship does not overcome everything under the sun on all scenarios. Tracking penalty is an example. Or even.. Cannot fit Warp Dirsruptors ( would make it only usable in gangs).

Another possibility would be to make the ship configurable trough some special modules.

Marauder Siege module, large damage and repair bonud with trackign penalty, no warp, but shoudl still be able to move slowboating). Great for one scenario of PVP and woudl not need to hamper any balance on PVE.




i understand you point.

the problem i have with it is that considered the new after tiericide plan for ships tech II ships have to be more specialized than pirate ships. (else jou just throw over the system and seldom there's a good outcome to such thing)

so IF the specialization of marauders would stay being good and self sufficient in pve THEN they should not be able o fill the place of pirate bs in gangs else they simply outclass pirate bs in every fashion

combineing your proposal (make them viable for pvp) with the ship system would end up in:

make there specialization beeing self suficient in every way (PVP and PVE) so the y are the ultimate solo ships but not first choice in gangs.
(this would have my support, but i dont know if it could be achieved)
Sanny Business
Doomheim
#91 - 2013-06-18 11:12:14 UTC
CCP just do NOT forget their actual role atm, they are the high class of mission running ships!

I really used almost every possible ship for l4s, but they are the best choice in most cases. And although i own a noctis, the salvage bonus is a great addon, because there are not so many missions where i think its worth to switch ships.

It took me long time and will be finished in some days, to be able to fly all 4 marauders with my main mission running char. If you completely change their usability for missions i'm just gonna blow myself :D

Really, they are good as they are now, just need some adjustement. Please no complete overhauling...
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#92 - 2013-06-18 11:17:41 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:



CCP never said they shoudl not be PVP ships. I remember very well when they were intoriduced. THe weakness to eCM was so they would not become SOLOPWONMOBILES. That means they do not like very pwoerful solo ships. But on current eve age that is not a real risk since 99.45324% of PVP is made in gagns.





Their "performance" has nothing to do with solo vs group play, it has to do with bad t2 progression relative to other ship classes... They have the worst t2 resistances, 2 less slots compared to t1 BS (-1 slot, -1 rig), and extremely **** sensor strength. The reality is that faction BS, both navy and pirate, are generally better than marauders...

In all fairness though... The team that was putting out content around this time in eve was god awful, like really, really ******* bad... That being said... Pretty much anything rise and fozzie do will be a substantial improvement and I trust them and their team to do an amazing job with the ships in the near future especially considering the thousands and thousands of feedback posts regarding BS and faction BS changes.
Perihelion Olenard
#93 - 2013-06-18 11:24:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're working on a pretty cool concept for them but it's too early to announce anything.

:ultra tease:

Time to buy up all the marauders and sell them high in anticipation of this.
Caleb Seremshur
Naked Oiled Bodybuilders
Parasitic Legion.
#94 - 2013-06-18 11:49:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
I have a suspicion I know what the idea is

If I'm right, it's not about making the Golem better at PvE.


It's about evening the playing field between two ships that are used for much the same thing. I still see people very commonly recommended to fly a rattlesnake due to ease of use in PVE. A golem from the first glance seems patently inferior and it's only real benefit over a rattlesnake was the tractor/salvage stuff but the noctis was introduced and for those who mission seriously it's easier to create another account and do that. The noctis account pays itself off in this scenario.

Therefore in my mind it makes sense to move the golem away from competing with other ships for the same job and make them like HACs, a catagory above the ship class it comes from. Whether it gets used in pvp or pve is up to the decision of the user but in no way should T2 be designed specifically for pve activity.

EXIA MIKOSZ
Strike Birds Zero
#95 - 2013-06-18 13:21:12 UTC
Sanny Business wrote:
CCP just do NOT forget their actual role atm, they are the high class of mission running ships!

I really used almost every possible ship for l4s, but they are the best choice in most cases. And although i own a noctis, the salvage bonus is a great addon, because there are not so many missions where i think its worth to switch ships.

It took me long time and will be finished in some days, to be able to fly all 4 marauders with my main mission running char. If you completely change their usability for missions i'm just gonna blow myself :D

Really, they are good as they are now, just need some adjustement. Please no complete overhauling...


Agree in 100%
They have Their Role and what they need is just some small changes and upgrades
Most of You i think want them to change becaouse you are completely bored with the other ships
if you Want something new in T2 BS Hulls ask CCP for New Class Ships with new Role

People Complain Marauders are tottaly ****** comparing to some Pirate/Navy BS
I need to Disagree becaouse better cargo space/ammo saving/tractor and salvage/better Tank for saving other lows/mids

Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#96 - 2013-06-18 14:18:20 UTC
If you fail at making Marauders better than pirate faction battleships for PvE purposes it will be the last straw and I'm going to unsub my accounts. Its taken CCP way too long to get on the ball with this ship rebalancing if you f*ck this up I will leave and never come back.

Just sayin'

Not today spaghetti.

Kane Fenris
NWP
#97 - 2013-06-18 14:29:48 UTC
Sexy Cakes wrote:
If you fail at making Marauders better than pirate faction battleships for PvE purposes it will be the last straw and I'm going to unsub my accounts. Its taken CCP way too long to get on the ball with this ship rebalancing if you f*ck this up I will leave and never come back.

Just sayin'



people like you disgust me.

hollow threads without constructive suggestion how to fix it..... and most likely ill judgement of the changes that will be made....
Solutio Letum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2013-06-18 14:39:31 UTC
Vizvig wrote:
Capital guns and dual tracking bonus may be ?Big smile

Moar expensive and more powerful.

Lols someone never used a capital gun looks like,
Capital guns miss cruisers who move 100% of the time unless its 150km away.
Capital guns miss a after burner battleship 99% of the time if its 30 km away.
Capital guns doe about has much damage has a Large gun unless you are in seige mode.
Capital guns are really only useful to shoot capital ships and structures unless everyone fits webs on and does not move an inch.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-06-18 14:53:11 UTC
Kane Fenris wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


CCP never said they shoudl not be PVP ships. I remember very well when they were intoriduced. THe weakness to eCM was so they would not become SOLOPWONMOBILES. That means they do not like very pwoerful solo ships. But on current eve age that is not a real risk since 99.45324% of PVP is made in gagns.


Just give us a POWERFUL COMBAT SHIP. High damage, that bennefits PVE and PVP. And give some drawbacks so that the ship does not overcome everything under the sun on all scenarios. Tracking penalty is an example. Or even.. Cannot fit Warp Dirsruptors ( would make it only usable in gangs).

Another possibility would be to make the ship configurable trough some special modules.

Marauder Siege module, large damage and repair bonud with trackign penalty, no warp, but shoudl still be able to move slowboating). Great for one scenario of PVP and woudl not need to hamper any balance on PVE.




i understand you point.

the problem i have with it is that considered the new after tiericide plan for ships tech II ships have to be more specialized than pirate ships. (else jou just throw over the system and seldom there's a good outcome to such thing)

so IF the specialization of marauders would stay being good and self sufficient in pve THEN they should not be able o fill the place of pirate bs in gangs else they simply outclass pirate bs in every fashion

combineing your proposal (make them viable for pvp) with the ship system would end up in:

make there specialization beeing self suficient in every way (PVP and PVE) so the y are the ultimate solo ships but not first choice in gangs.
(this would have my support, but i dont know if it could be achieved)



When they talk about specialization they are not talking on broafd terms like PVE vs PVP. They mean things like.

Anti support sniper, Alpha strike ship, AHAC material, sentry boat, light drones boat, etc..

I know that for PVE people things are overally PLAIN and without suggar, but in the PVP scenario you have HUndreds of roles. And That is what they are talking about.

Therefore as a simple example, the Vagabond would be FASTER than the cynabal, while the cynabal should stil be fast, but a strongger brawler for example.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#100 - 2013-06-18 14:54:33 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



CCP never said they shoudl not be PVP ships. I remember very well when they were intoriduced. THe weakness to eCM was so they would not become SOLOPWONMOBILES. That means they do not like very pwoerful solo ships. But on current eve age that is not a real risk since 99.45324% of PVP is made in gagns.





Their "performance" has nothing to do with solo vs group play, it has to do with bad t2 progression relative to other ship classes... They have the worst t2 resistances, 2 less slots compared to t1 BS (-1 slot, -1 rig), and extremely **** sensor strength. The reality is that faction BS, both navy and pirate, are generally better than marauders...

In all fairness though... The team that was putting out content around this time in eve was god awful, like really, really ******* bad... That being said... Pretty much anything rise and fozzie do will be a substantial improvement and I trust them and their team to do an amazing job with the ships in the near future especially considering the thousands and thousands of feedback posts regarding BS and faction BS changes.



I am not statingan opinion.. its FACT that this was CCP official reason for the limitations of marauders.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"