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CCP stll needs to do something about cloaks

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Black Dranzer
#241 - 2013-06-14 22:55:25 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Since you claim to be speaking for me when you say "we"

"To speak for somebody" means to represent them. It means to stand in their place and speak as if your thoughts and desires were their own. At no point in this trivial exchange have I done this. I have spoken only for myself. I have expressed my opinion on what the needs of the community and the game are. At no point have I expressed the desires of the community; Although I have aired my suspicions on what those desires are.

This isn't a trivial matter of semantics; You're accusing me of something that I have not done.

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#242 - 2013-06-14 22:59:03 UTC
Black Dranzer wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Since you claim to be speaking for me when you say "we"

"To speak for somebody" means to represent them. It means to stand in their place and speak as if your thoughts and desires were their own. At no point in this trivial exchange have I done this. I have spoken only for myself. I have expressed my opinion on what the needs of the community and the game are. At no point have I expressed the desires of the community; Although I have aired my suspicions on what those desires are.

This isn't a trivial matter of semantics; You're accusing me of something that I have not done.



Then stop saying we need something, and just say you need it. You don't speak for me or anyone else here. What you think might be good may or may not be true, just stop trying to speak as if you are the authority until you get some DEV stripes.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Black Dranzer
#243 - 2013-06-14 23:05:21 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Then stop saying we need something, and just say you need it.

I believe that I need these changes simply because I am a member of the Eve Community. It's quite possible for CCP to make a change that I will need but not necessarily want.

Doc Fury wrote:
You don't speak for me or anyone else here.

It's a good thing I never tried then, isn't it?

In any event, this is quickly starting to bore me. While I've got your attention, I'll simply ask for your general thoughts and opinions on the whole "AFK Cloaking" debate. Maybe then we can argue about something of substance.

So. Doc. Where do you stand on this whole thing?

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
Hans Zwaardhandler
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#244 - 2013-06-14 23:05:35 UTC
Ace Menda wrote:
Hans Zwaardhandler wrote:
Ace Menda wrote:
Nobody EVER said it would become W space...

If you did some reading yourself, but apparantly you don't want time of yoru ISK making, you would have seen that people compared it to W-space and shown that no local doesn't mean it's impossible to do stuff.

And like it has been said...patrolling is easy..

Bubble gate...put some ships on it to shoot anything that jumps through...problem solved...you killed the cyno ship before it becomes a threat.

But then you will just whine again how that means you can't make ISK in your carebear endeavors. Guess what...that's how null-sec works.

1.) Fight for your right
2.) Accept your just a ******* who doesn't deserve null access in the first place cause you can't even keep a simple cyno frigate out of your system.


So much bitter in this post, mate. I haven't even undocked today, mostly have been on TS3 with friends and chatting here and there in game and out of game, and fulfilling my daily allotment of forum warrioring here.. I haven't made a single tangible isk all day.

But it has generally been said that if we were to remove local like wormholes, PvP and cloaky camper problems would be magically fixed for nullsec (somehow).

Nice personal attacks by the way J'Poll. Care to post with your main here, or did he collect another forum ban for you being naughty in other threads?


Yes. It would fix cloaky camping.

Cause it will be useless to camp people if they don't know you are there.

And at least I voice my own opinions and don't dance to the tune my master tells me to dance to like a muppet.


Replace "opinions" with "preconceived notions of superiority" and you've nailed it on the head.

And yes, it would fix cloaky campers that are there just to disrupt activity, but the majority aren't there for just disruption; they are there for easy kills on ratting ships and mining vessels, and killing local will allow them to have that for a short span of time before the sensible people pack their bags and head to highsec to make money (which would in turn kill off any attempts at prodding industry to be done in null like CCP seems to want with their new Odyssey changes).

So, for the 47'th time, it is a pretty poorly conceived notion that killing off local will give you a heightened sense of risk, because again, removing local worked for wormholes because they were built from the ground up to operate like that and work without local because you actually have to scan down the entryways, whereas you have a series of warpable gates in standard space.
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#245 - 2013-06-14 23:07:46 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Ace Menda wrote:


Yes. It would fix cloaky camping.

Cause it will be useless to camp people if they don't know you are there.

And at least I voice my own opinions and don't dance to the tune my master tells me to dance to like a muppet.


What is wrong with cloaky camping?


There isn't enough of it. People are still undocking.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#246 - 2013-06-14 23:09:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Black Dranzer wrote:


So. Doc. Where do you stand on this whole thing?


Cloaking is working as intended. If anyone is too scared to undock just because there's a non-blue in system, they should HTFU or GBTW. That's my position.

If that does not work, the CSM is there to "represent".

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Black Dranzer
#247 - 2013-06-14 23:36:11 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Cloaking is working as intended. If anyone is too scared to undock just because there's a non-blue in system, they should HTFU or GBTW.

Now see, to an extent I agree with this. Most suggestions to change AFK cloaking have the air of "I'm scared" about them. Those suggestions are typically ****.

I do, however, take issues.

My issues with cloaking are that A) It protects you from harm, but B) Doesn't protect you from detection. Everybody in the system knows you're there, but nobody can touch you until you decide to make yourself vulnerable.

I mean, okay, yes, you can probably engineer scenarios wherein a team of buzzards sit quietly with probes out waiting for the cloaker to try logging out and catching him in the logoff timer and set up bubbles on the exit gates, but that only realy works in nullsec and/or with a decent show of force, and even that can be circumvented if you're prepared to wait until downtime before logging off.

But I also realize you can't just remove their defensive capabilities because they'd crumble to dust and become pretty much useless, which brings me to my second complaint: Cloaks don't actually provide stealth. You don't really hide; Everybody knows you're there, they just can't get you. This doesn't afford particularly useful or interesting gameplay. I, personally, believe that the merit of stealth should be that nobody knows you're there. But by the same token, I believe that cloaks being both undetectable and unbreakable would be a little on the OP side.

I assume you disagree with what I'm saying, but I am curious as to why. What do you think I'm missing, or not taking into account? I mean, obviously the current system sort of works, but I think we (yes, you and me) can agree that just because a system is functional, that doesn't mean it can't be improved on.

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#248 - 2013-06-14 23:44:20 UTC
Black Dranzer wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Cloaking is working as intended. If anyone is too scared to undock just because there's a non-blue in system, they should HTFU or GBTW.

Now see, to an extent I agree with this. Most suggestions to change AFK cloaking have the air of "I'm scared" about them. Those suggestions are typically ****.

I do, however, take issues.

My issues with cloaking are that A) It protects you from harm, but B) Doesn't protect you from detection. Everybody in the system knows you're there, but nobody can touch you until you decide to make yourself vulnerable.

I mean, okay, yes, you can probably engineer scenarios wherein a team of buzzards sit quietly with probes out waiting for the cloaker to try logging out and catching him in the logoff timer and set up bubbles on the exit gates, but that only realy works in nullsec and/or with a decent show of force, and even that can be circumvented if you're prepared to wait until downtime before logging off.

But I also realize you can't just remove their defensive capabilities because they'd crumble to dust and become pretty much useless, which brings me to my second complaint: Cloaks don't actually provide stealth. You don't really hide; Everybody knows you're there, they just can't get you. This doesn't afford particularly useful or interesting gameplay. I, personally, believe that the merit of stealth should be that nobody knows you're there. But by the same token, I believe that cloaks being both undetectable and unbreakable would be a little on the OP side.

I assume you disagree with what I'm saying, but I am curious as to why. What do you think I'm missing, or not taking into account? I mean, obviously the current system sort of works, but I think we (yes, you and me) can agree that just because a system is functional, that doesn't mean it can't be improved on.


Everything that has ever been said for or against can be found in this thread. repeated over and over just like this one.

Countering a cloaker (AFK or otherwise) seems impossible because most players are unwilling to put out the :effort:


☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Black Dranzer
#249 - 2013-06-14 23:50:15 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Everything that has ever been said for or against can be found in this thread. repeated over and over just like this one.

Yeah, but right at this moment I'm not interested in their opinions, I'm interested in yours.
Quote:
Countering a cloaker (AFK or otherwise) seems impossible because most players are unwilling to put out the :effort:

Okay, humor me. I'm cloaked in a safespot that doesn't cross any warp paths. I have a cyno mounted, ready to deploy at any time. I have been paid a sum of isk to do this for an indeterminate amount of time. I don't log off except at downtime. When I log back in as soon as downtime is over, I immediately cloak up and set up a new safe spot.

What are your options?

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
Johnny McCynoalt
Plundering Penguins
Solyaris Chtonium
#250 - 2013-06-15 00:05:47 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Black Dranzer wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Cloaking is working as intended. If anyone is too scared to undock just because there's a non-blue in system, they should HTFU or GBTW.

Now see, to an extent I agree with this. Most suggestions to change AFK cloaking have the air of "I'm scared" about them. Those suggestions are typically ****.

I do, however, take issues.

My issues with cloaking are that A) It protects you from harm, but B) Doesn't protect you from detection. Everybody in the system knows you're there, but nobody can touch you until you decide to make yourself vulnerable.

I mean, okay, yes, you can probably engineer scenarios wherein a team of buzzards sit quietly with probes out waiting for the cloaker to try logging out and catching him in the logoff timer and set up bubbles on the exit gates, but that only realy works in nullsec and/or with a decent show of force, and even that can be circumvented if you're prepared to wait until downtime before logging off.

But I also realize you can't just remove their defensive capabilities because they'd crumble to dust and become pretty much useless, which brings me to my second complaint: Cloaks don't actually provide stealth. You don't really hide; Everybody knows you're there, they just can't get you. This doesn't afford particularly useful or interesting gameplay. I, personally, believe that the merit of stealth should be that nobody knows you're there. But by the same token, I believe that cloaks being both undetectable and unbreakable would be a little on the OP side.

I assume you disagree with what I'm saying, but I am curious as to why. What do you think I'm missing, or not taking into account? I mean, obviously the current system sort of works, but I think we (yes, you and me) can agree that just because a system is functional, that doesn't mean it can't be improved on.


Everything that has ever been said for or against can be found in this thread. repeated over and over just like this one.

Countering a cloaker (AFK or otherwise) seems impossible because most players are unwilling to put out the :effort:




This.

It reminds me of the winter 2011 supercap nerfs. People whined about them being "OP" and CCP overnerfed them because people were too stupid and/or lazy to neut them (not that supercaps necessarily didn't need any nerfing at all, but what was done was excessive and it's not hard to guess why).
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#251 - 2013-06-15 00:12:59 UTC
Black Ops should get CovOps Cloak Cool

We don't have AFK Cloakers in w-space...
...You should move into a wormhole Big smile

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

The Diogenes Club | Join W-Space | Down The Pipe
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#252 - 2013-06-15 00:14:20 UTC
Proclus Diadochu wrote:
Black Ops should get CovOps Cloak Cool

We don't have AFK Cloakers in w-space...
...You should move into a wormhole Big smile


Sure you do.

You just don't have local chat informing you of their presence so you can **** your pants at every opportunity like a nullbear.
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#253 - 2013-06-15 00:16:45 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Proclus Diadochu wrote:
Black Ops should get CovOps Cloak Cool

We don't have AFK Cloakers in w-space...
...You should move into a wormhole Big smile


Sure you do.

You just don't have local chat informing you of their presence so you can **** your pants at every opportunity like a nullbear.


We totally don't have AFK Cloakers. Nope. None.

OP and all other individuals who like to fly shiney things safely should move into a wormhole.

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

The Diogenes Club | Join W-Space | Down The Pipe
Black Dranzer
#254 - 2013-06-15 00:18:35 UTC
Does lighting a cyno in a wormhole even do anything?

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#255 - 2013-06-15 00:21:19 UTC
Black Dranzer wrote:
Does lighting a cyno in a wormhole even do anything?


Provides a temporary target and a warp-in Smile

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

E-mail: diogenes.proc@gmail.com

My Blog: http://diogenes-club.blogspot.com/

The Diogenes Club | Join W-Space | Down The Pipe
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#256 - 2013-06-15 00:22:51 UTC
When I was living in dubyah space, there was no local.

I just had to get used to the only safe perception there was available. That everyone I hate is all around me, just about to warp in and kill me.

Cultivate this mindset, it is the zen of a good pilot.

This is all of course assuming you aren't a botter who is angry that he can't afk mine, because of those afk cloakers. Seems to me the only people who should fear afk cloakers are afk botters.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#257 - 2013-06-15 00:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Black Dranzer wrote:

Okay, humor me. I'm cloaked in a safespot that doesn't cross any warp paths. I have a cyno mounted, ready to deploy at any time. I have been paid a sum of isk to do this for an indeterminate amount of time. I don't log off except at downtime. When I log back in as soon as downtime is over, I immediately cloak up and set up a new safe spot.

What are your options?


I can Ignore you and go about my business because you are only a psychological threat until you actually do something. Once you do, I can counter with my own cloaky alt and hotdrop. I can bait you into showing your hand with the same result. You can't be ready to go 23/7 and neither can your fleet. If you both somehow can, you've earned a small advantage in a game of cat vs also cat.

There's other options in that thread I linked if you are that curious and want to play the hypothetical go find them.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Black Dranzer
#258 - 2013-06-15 00:27:43 UTC
You know, what about lowsec?

Everybody talks about nullsec. What about lowsec cloakers? They're just as visible, and just as invulnerable. Maybe even more so, given there are no bubbles to catch people on the way out.

Faction warfare would be neat with fleets of invisible-to-local bombers flying about.

Ahh, but I'm dreaming again.

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
Black Dranzer
#259 - 2013-06-15 00:29:49 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
Once you do, I can counter with my own cloaky alt and hotdrop. I can bait you into showing your hand with the same result.

It doesn't strike you as even a little absurd that the most viable counter to an AFK cloaker hotdrop is another AFK cloaker hotdrop?

Walking in Stations as a Social Hub: Business vs Pleasure in Incarna
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#260 - 2013-06-15 00:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Fury
Black Dranzer wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
Once you do, I can counter with my own cloaky alt and hotdrop. I can bait you into showing your hand with the same result.

It doesn't strike you as even a little absurd that the most viable counter to an AFK cloaker hotdrop is another AFK cloaker hotdrop?


Who said its the most viable?

You counter a blob with another blob. Is that absurd too, or an option?

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.