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Brutix/Myrm rep bonus

First post First post
Author
Gauro Charante
Vile Duck Pond
#41 - 2013-06-18 11:09:15 UTC
I posted before Odyssey about armor reps, that they should get another bonus built into them. According to the lore they use spacemagic nanobots to rep the armor. So why not just give all armorreps an added bonus of say 10% armor WHEN active? Then the gallente bonus would even further boost that giving them silly ammount of armor but lower resistance than amarr. Yes I know there would be a problem with "what happens with that extra armor when we turn it off". Also resistance could do.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#42 - 2013-06-18 16:24:48 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Deacon Abox wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
There have been noticeable increases in the number of Myrms and Brutix being flown since 1.1, but I definitely won't say that we're fully happy with the state of those active armor bonuses. We're continuing to tweak and observe results as always.

Ok, so have you delved into those numbers more deeply? How much of that is pve use where an active bonus is quite nice? How much of that pve use is actually active armor and not passive regen shield (since you left the stupidly high BC shield regen stat unaltered)? How much of the still very weak pvp use is simply slapped-on flimsy shield buffer and nano'd and trying to make use of the damage potential these ships have? And, lastly, as you appear to also be seeing, but won't say, how dismal is the total use compared to say Prophecies and the still durable Drake usage?

You really still have more work to do with re-evaluating the balancing already done. Talwars and Caracals? wtf? How have you even touched the advantages of shield and trackingless (and tracking disruptionless) long range missiles, also with perma mwd? Why are the top 4 ships now Caldari, on eve-kill? And what about the continued Tengu supremacy even after the HM alterations? You just shifted it away from Drakes, which at least is something to be thankful for I will admit.

I appear to be making the same decision as almost everyone else, that having two active armor tanked Gallente combat BCs blows chunks.

Sincerely,

Deac

edit- but unlike some other posters I will thank you for the resist bonus nerf. However, it appears you have to re-evaluate why the Rokh remains the only tech I BS up there it numbers.


wow, I didn't believe it until I checked it myself, as it stands the june top 20 is

Caracal 74,868
Tengu 68,108
Rokh 47,605
Naga 40,533
Loki 40,513

I mean this goes to show that the latest round of balancing and those unpopular changes we warned the devs about have made the situation even worse. There was much more variety in racial ships in the eve-kill top 20 prior to the rebalancing.

However I worry that CCP will now actively look at nerfing those top 5 ships instead of buffing the others.



and people still cry Winmatar all over when the wise one were already seeing that minamtar was not flavor of the month anymore... people still beleived that the hurricane was strong ship.. while everyone able to use the brain noticed the
truth...



FINNALY.. the CIRCLE IS NOW COMPLETE! And we went all way back to 2006 when Caldari are Win Button would fill the forums.


This is what happens as soon as you nerf tracking enhancers and make the hurricane a 'navy ship' lol. I'm not surprised practically no one was happy with the latest rebalance and that was prior to the changes being made.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...

Naomi Anthar
#43 - 2013-06-18 18:31:30 UTC
Oh don't complain about tracking enchancer nerf ... i think it was necessary too. And yes i'm 100% gun trained character. Be patient ccp said hams and rockets will be dealt with and also affected with td so ... but they couldnt fit all changes in Odyssey.

About Myrm/Brutix ... well i want to say that actually i like those bonuses. They are very strong for solo/small gang activity. And don't dare to even question that it's part of this game. Blobs are not all that counts. Check YT what triple/dual rep myrmidon can do for example.

Honestly - myself i plan to fly both hulls often as they represent very significant power for low scale pvp.

You need to understand that not every hull/race must be balanced around 100++ ship battles. Among BC's you still have talos/navy brutix without rep bonus for big fleets in Gallente lineup. Also if you are skilled for Brutix i'm pretty sure you are also skilled for Ferox - bonused for buffer tanking.(sure shield but you should have skill for hull + weapons)

And as last argument i can add that ignoring single bonus on ship ain't disaster - for example im using pulse laser tristans and algoses with pretty good results (altho they are bonused for hybrid with one of bonuses). Or Maelstorm - there are fleets of Maelstorms - that do well even tho they got bonus for local tanking. And many more. Sure it's good to utilize bonuses to get edge in combat , but don't say they are not useful - they are ! Just not in every sitution (big fleet with logi)
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-06-18 20:24:09 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
One obvious way of buffing rep bonuses is to give hitpoint rigs (Trimarks, CDFEs) a stacking penalty.


If all HP rigs get nerfed, that's one way to do it. But I'm not sure that's the right way.

There's another way to fix it: all active armor units (from the lowly DCU to the RAH) have some repair built in to them. Passive armor units can either boost amounts, cycle time, or reduce cap usage with stacking penalties of course.
zerquse
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-06-18 20:53:24 UTC
What about an armor boost amplifier, Like the shield boost amp. and make it a midslot.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#46 - 2013-06-18 23:28:04 UTC
zerquse wrote:
What about an armor boost amplifier, Like the shield boost amp. and make it a midslot.


Incoming single rep double mag stabbed neutron Hyperions dishing 1300 dps and tanking 2k.
Erutpar Ambient
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-06-19 00:55:08 UTC
I thought this thread was a Why do Myrm and Brutix both have a rep bonus thread, not a "fix rep bonus" thread.

Back on topic please?

I think with drones the myrm does well with the rep bonus as it always has. So Brutix, what bonus could you get? Extra Optimal, Extra Tracking, Extra ewar, Extra mobility?

Actually extra mobility sounds nice. Maybe increase MWD and AB thrust by 5% per level? That would be pretty bad ass. Would help with the problem of getting up close and personal even with heavy plates. What do you chumps think?

That idea sounds pretty cool to me over all. A high speed armor/blaster fleet brawlin in your face (capacitor permitting).... Yeahhhhhhh!!!!!!!
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-06-19 03:28:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorgoth24
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
Deacon Abox wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
There have been noticeable increases in the number of Myrms and Brutix being flown since 1.1, but I definitely won't say that we're fully happy with the state of those active armor bonuses. We're continuing to tweak and observe results as always.

Ok, so have you delved into those numbers more deeply? How much of that is pve use where an active bonus is quite nice? How much of that pve use is actually active armor and not passive regen shield (since you left the stupidly high BC shield regen stat unaltered)? How much of the still very weak pvp use is simply slapped-on flimsy shield buffer and nano'd and trying to make use of the damage potential these ships have? And, lastly, as you appear to also be seeing, but won't say, how dismal is the total use compared to say Prophecies and the still durable Drake usage?

You really still have more work to do with re-evaluating the balancing already done. Talwars and Caracals? wtf? How have you even touched the advantages of shield and trackingless (and tracking disruptionless) long range missiles, also with perma mwd? Why are the top 4 ships now Caldari, on eve-kill? And what about the continued Tengu supremacy even after the HM alterations? You just shifted it away from Drakes, which at least is something to be thankful for I will admit.

I appear to be making the same decision as almost everyone else, that having two active armor tanked Gallente combat BCs blows chunks.

Sincerely,

Deac

edit- but unlike some other posters I will thank you for the resist bonus nerf. However, it appears you have to re-evaluate why the Rokh remains the only tech I BS up there it numbers.


wow, I didn't believe it until I checked it myself, as it stands the june top 20 is

Caracal 74,868
Tengu 68,108
Rokh 47,605
Naga 40,533
Loki 40,513

I mean this goes to show that the latest round of balancing and those unpopular changes we warned the devs about have made the situation even worse. There was much more variety in racial ships in the eve-kill top 20 prior to the rebalancing.

However I worry that CCP will now actively look at nerfing those top 5 ships instead of buffing the others.



and people still cry Winmatar all over when the wise one were already seeing that minamtar was not flavor of the month anymore... people still beleived that the hurricane was strong ship.. while everyone able to use the brain noticed the
truth...



FINNALY.. the CIRCLE IS NOW COMPLETE! And we went all way back to 2006 when Caldari are Win Button would fill the forums.


This is what happens as soon as you nerf tracking enhancers and make the hurricane a 'navy ship' lol. I'm not surprised practically no one was happy with the latest rebalance and that was prior to the changes being made.



I was very happy with the last rebalance, and almost everyone I've talked to has been happy with the last rebalance (in my little world of small-gang PvP). Even the minni gun nuts realized why the TE nerf was needed after they chewed on it, realizing how much it was bringing tier 3 BC's into line. I've seen some complaints about the changes to the geddon and the cyclone and such, which is understandable since they were radically changed, and the armor rep bonuses on the gallente BCs, but I have yet to meet a serious pvp'er who said that the balancing work OVERALL was a bad thing.

Most of the complaints I have heard are from people who don't PvP in solo/small gang situations, or PvP that way often, and their complains are justifiable in the realm of Caracals/Tengus/Nagas and the way they are used in enormous fleets. But things like the hurricane and TE nerf that knocked the Minni off their throne in small-gang PvP is just silly.

HMs need to be looked at, and T3s have yet to be rebalanced, as the original poster of that hatethread (with all that math and rational junk) concluded with the use-stats in EVE-Kill. But I do think the benefits outweigh the losses, and at the very least rebalancing is continually being done by CCP.

EDIT: Sorry about the fanboyism, but I hate it when rational complaints like those of the original poster of that thread are jumped on by Minni fanboys that can't stand that they've been knocked off their throne.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#49 - 2013-06-19 08:01:35 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
I thought this thread was a Why do Myrm and Brutix both have a rep bonus thread, not a "fix rep bonus" thread.

Back on topic please?

I think with drones the myrm does well with the rep bonus as it always has. So Brutix, what bonus could you get? Extra Optimal, Extra Tracking, Extra ewar, Extra mobility?

Actually extra mobility sounds nice. Maybe increase MWD and AB thrust by 5% per level? That would be pretty bad ass. Would help with the problem of getting up close and personal even with heavy plates. What do you chumps think?

That idea sounds pretty cool to me over all. A high speed armor/blaster fleet brawlin in your face (capacitor permitting).... Yeahhhhhhh!!!!!!!


My gut instinct is also to replace the Brutix bonus rather than the myrm. If it went tracking it might be too close to the new Navy Brutix, though that could also be seen as a natural progression from one to the other. I'd prefer something slightly different but if the navy has tracking and CS have optimal that leaves the Brutix little choice without continuing to replicate a bonus; at least it wouldn't be such a situational bonus though. Optimal would be my pick out of the ones you listed.
Shpenat
Ironman Inc.
#50 - 2013-06-19 08:39:16 UTC
Nikuno wrote:

My gut instinct is also to replace the Brutix bonus rather than the myrm. If it went tracking it might be too close to the new Navy Brutix, though that could also be seen as a natural progression from one to the other. I'd prefer something slightly different but if the navy has tracking and CS have optimal that leaves the Brutix little choice without continuing to replicate a bonus; at least it wouldn't be such a situational bonus though. Optimal would be my pick out of the ones you listed.


I personally am against any change to the myrm or brutix rep bonus. It is quite good bonus as active armor rigs no longer influence the speed. And frankly I regularly tank around 100k raw hp in my brutix (as long as there is no neuting on the field).

The main issue I have is with active armor tanking and boosting. For most armor ships only the resistance link is worthwhile. For active tanking all three links add to form huge cumulative bonus.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2013-06-19 09:38:02 UTC
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I mean this goes to show that the latest round of balancing and those unpopular changes we warned the devs about have made the situation even worse. There was much more variety in racial ships in the eve-kill top 20 prior to the rebalancing.

However I worry that CCP will now actively look at nerfing those top 5 ships instead of buffing the others.

Screw that. Look at that list and tell me what is missing ... I'll give you hint: It uses super-intense flashlights and has golden skin.

Zealot/Legion is only present as the power-ball is reportedly being used in Delve, difference from previous T20's is that the Abaddon has been replaced by the new monster tracking Apocalypse, but those are the three Amarr hulls.
Winmatar still dominates with a whopping nine hulls, primarily because their OPness has not yet been addressed, projectiles were overbuffed and no measures to reign them in has yet been taken .. 'nuff said.
Caldari and Gallente split the remaining 8 slots between them with the only interesting/encouraging bit being the return of the venerable Dominix to ownage game.

Won't even use synonyms of 'balance' until all races have at least 2 (or even one!) representative in the top 10.

In short: Over-buff AMARR! Lol
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#52 - 2013-06-19 09:48:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
I suspect that once the cap consumption of lasers (among other things regarding lasers) has been properly sorted out, you'll find more Amarr ships in that list of yours.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2013-06-19 12:03:34 UTC
Gorgoth24 wrote:

EDIT: Sorry about the fanboyism, but I hate it when rational complaints like those of the original poster of that thread are jumped on by Minni fanboys that can't stand that they've been knocked off their throne.


And I do not like when whiner hatters try to deny FACTS! The worse type of posters are the hatters, like Naomi that think everything in universe if proof that minmatar are overpowered . You are sounding as one right now.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-06-19 12:56:56 UTC
Gauro Charante wrote:
I posted before Odyssey about armor reps, that they should get another bonus built into them. According to the lore they use spacemagic nanobots to rep the armor. So why not just give all armorreps an added bonus of say 10% armor WHEN active? Then the gallente bonus would even further boost that giving them silly ammount of armor but lower resistance than amarr. Yes I know there would be a problem with "what happens with that extra armor when we turn it off". Also resistance could do.



The 10% bonus rep was far too good, 7.5% is not good enough and seems CCP can't put a bonus number in between 7.5 and 10, maybe the code doesn't help?

Lol

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-06-19 13:07:45 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:
I mean this goes to show that the latest round of balancing and those unpopular changes we warned the devs about have made the situation even worse. There was much more variety in racial ships in the eve-kill top 20 prior to the rebalancing.

However I worry that CCP will now actively look at nerfing those top 5 ships instead of buffing the others.

Screw that. Look at that list and tell me what is missing ... I'll give you hint: It uses super-intense flashlights and has golden skin.

Zealot/Legion is only present as the power-ball is reportedly being used in Delve, difference from previous T20's is that the Abaddon has been replaced by the new monster tracking Apocalypse, but those are the three Amarr hulls.
Winmatar still dominates with a whopping nine hulls, primarily because their OPness has not yet been addressed, projectiles were overbuffed and no measures to reign them in has yet been taken .. 'nuff said.
Caldari and Gallente split the remaining 8 slots between them with the only interesting/encouraging bit being the return of the venerable Dominix to ownage game.

Won't even use synonyms of 'balance' until all races have at least 2 (or even one!) representative in the top 10.

In short: Over-buff AMARR! Lol



Maelstroms doctrines are being changed for lols and giggles, different tactics less easier to counter for a while before changing again, Alpha is still stupidly OP and nothing you can come with will change the simple fact a 150 Maelstroms alpha WILL still be more efficient than 150 whatever other race BS dps.
Even Cruise Ravens can compete in terms of Alpha strikes and EHP now, on paper at least, maybe some day we might see fleet doctrines of those, all it takes is an FC to decide doing it, set strategies for his fleet and then you'll start reading dozens of threads about Op Ravens and whatnot.

Caracals are being exploded and used by thousands because of cost efficiency, cheapo fleet average dmg good, dmg projection correct.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2013-06-19 14:46:19 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I suspect that once the cap consumption of lasers (among other things regarding lasers) has been properly sorted out, you'll find more Amarr ships in that list of yours.

I sincerely hope that is not the way they choose to go .. I'd rather have a stupidly OP weapon system that requires me to jump through a bazillion hoops and sell my first born to deploy successfully than a dime-a-dozen system that is nothing more than blasters with scorch. Big smile
Gauro Charante
Vile Duck Pond
#57 - 2013-06-19 15:32:08 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Gauro Charante wrote:
I posted before Odyssey about armor reps, that they should get another bonus built into them. According to the lore they use spacemagic nanobots to rep the armor. So why not just give all armorreps an added bonus of say 10% armor WHEN active? Then the gallente bonus would even further boost that giving them silly ammount of armor but lower resistance than amarr. Yes I know there would be a problem with "what happens with that extra armor when we turn it off". Also resistance could do.



The 10% bonus rep was far too good, 7.5% is not good enough and seems CCP can't put a bonus number in between 7.5 and 10, maybe the code doesn't help?

Lol



I didn't mean that the rep bonus would change, rather just add 10% armor to the ship with a rep module. Then the 7,5% increase from Gallente ships would add more raw armor, but wouldn't add weight to the ship keeping them agile.
Leskit
Pure Victory
#58 - 2013-06-19 17:22:48 UTC
The problem i've come accross is that it's just too slow for how much it reps. Waiting 7.65 seconds ( single tech 1 nano accelerator rig)...heck, waiting even 7 seconds...is just too slow as you have to pair it with buffer at that point. If the rep time was lowered by a third, and rep amount changed to even out, that would be a big step in the right direction.

Large shield boosters, with the same 15% rig have a cycle time of 3.4 seconds- less than half. because it lands at the beginning of the cycle, they can get in 3 cycles before my first one finishes. That's a HUGE difference and precisely the problem as I see it.

tl;dr. reduce cycle time by 33%, adjust rep amount to even out, then tweak as necessary. or apply reps evenly throughout the cycle, e.g. armor per second of cycle.
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-06-19 17:35:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gorgoth24
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Gorgoth24 wrote:

EDIT: Sorry about the fanboyism, but I hate it when rational complaints like those of the original poster of that thread are jumped on by Minni fanboys that can't stand that they've been knocked off their throne.


And I do not like when whiner hatters try to deny FACTS! The worse type of posters are the hatters, like Naomi that think everything in universe if proof that minmatar are overpowered . You are sounding as one right now.



I can hardly read your English, but if you'd check eve-kill, the Hurricane is still the most used combat battlecruiser and the only combat battelcruiser to make the top 20. (At time of posting).

Also, although Caldari take 4 of the top 5 spots, and for various reasons that CCP Rise and Fozzie said they will be addressing, 9 of the top 20 are still Minmatar even after the TE nerf and other direct and indirect Minmatar nerfs.

I'm not complaining that the Minmatar are overpowered NOW, (with the exception of the Cynabal) I'm saying they used to be OP and the measures taken to take them off their throne were rational and justified.

I don't know what facts you're talking about in regards to the Minmatar being underpowered.

EDIT: On topic, I do think that the Brutix should be the one changed, and that the Brutix should have that bonus replaced with something to help it apply damage (e.g. speed to get into range, tracking to apply damage when it gets there, etc.) I don't like the idea of optimal bonuses, as the range with rails is fine anyways and medium rails have already been mentioned as in the queue for buffing.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#60 - 2013-06-19 17:41:19 UTC
zerquse wrote:
What about an armor boost amplifier, Like the shield boost amp. and make it a midslot.


you could call it a nano assembler reserve matrix.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.