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A case against the 0.01 isk war
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Zircon Dasher
#21 - 2013-06-11 23:01:29 UTC
Voith wrote:

Because 99% of .01 isking is done by bots.


citation needed

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Tiber Ibis
The Paratwa Ka
#22 - 2013-06-11 23:19:51 UTC
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:

Why?


Because I don't want you getting the sale, if you are only offering a 0.01 ISK discount.

I should be able to make the purchase from the seller I want to buy from.

And if not, then I should not be paying the higher price simply because that's the one I clicked on. If the sale is going to the lowest seller anyway, then that's the price a player should be charged.


That isn't how it works. The market is a broker system, and so if you want to pay more then that is your choice, but the broker will find the lowest available item and sell to it.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#23 - 2013-06-11 23:20:03 UTC
I've got no problem buying for the lowest price, or isk games on the market, thing is though unless items with identical performance can somehow have different levels of quality like being more prone to damage from overheating or other effects for poorer quality price is the only guide we have to a good deal.

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Alexila Quant
Versatility Production Corporation' LLC
#24 - 2013-06-11 23:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
This is a terrible idea. You obviously don't know anything about economics or market play in Eve.
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#25 - 2013-06-11 23:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Alexila Quant wrote:
This is a terrible idea. You obviously don't know anything about economics or market play in Eve.
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal


Enlighten me please. What makes this idea terrible?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2013-06-11 23:59:43 UTC
Tyco Iinuit wrote:
INFLATION Brah, you know what It means?

what about usign your mouse wheel to outbid 0.01 isk besides typing it every f**** time?? Maybe you wouldn´t be so mad

Yes, where as you don't.

Inflation is an increase of the money supply, not an increase in prices.
Psychoactive Stimulant
#27 - 2013-06-12 00:01:47 UTC
Stick to the contract market if you don't like using brokers, OH WAIT!
rikifari
Perkone
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-06-12 00:20:17 UTC
This gonna be 0,75% order war. Because with good standings and max skill it will be 0.75% broker fee. And yes, you need to cancel order xD
Ordellus
Doomheim
#29 - 2013-06-12 01:38:05 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
+1 to OP.

so called "Market PVP" is ********.... any intelligent group of merchants would create a price floor and be patient.

Oh right... it's a video game *Snip* Please refrain from rumour mongering at CCP's expense. ISD Ezwal
L Salander
All Web Investigations
#30 - 2013-06-12 07:24:25 UTC
Lets say we implemented this idea. How long would it be before OP raced to the forums screaming that he can no longer make a profit because other people put items up cheaper, and in order to undercut them he has to drop millions of isk off his orders

I say all of two hours
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#31 - 2013-06-12 07:48:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Just apply full broker fees every time you change order. Problem solved: a couple of order changes and it ceases to be profitable for seller/buyer. Those with standings and skills can play undercutting/overpricing game a little longer than 1-day trade bots.

FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:

The thing is, if you chose the 0.01 isk more expensive sell order, you are actually buying from the cheaper one, just giving him more money than he asked for.

Edit: @Psychoactive: You were faster, and this is the exact reason why the "do it yourself" method doesn't quite cut it. Also, outbidding by 1% myself doesn't prevent other from outbidding me by 0.01 isk afterwards.


Seriously? That's how it works?

That's absolute crap. Why would your purchase go to a different seller when you clicked on someone elses sell order to make the purchase?

That's not right. If that's the case, then THAT needs to change first off.

That is anti-RMT solution and protection against Average price manipulation in large hubs.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#32 - 2013-06-12 11:08:04 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Just apply full broker fees every time you change order. Problem solved: a couple of order changes and it ceases to be profitable for seller/buyer. Those with standings and skills can play undercutting/overpricing game a little longer than 1-day trade bots.

FoxFire Ayderan wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:

The thing is, if you chose the 0.01 isk more expensive sell order, you are actually buying from the cheaper one, just giving him more money than he asked for.

Edit: @Psychoactive: You were faster, and this is the exact reason why the "do it yourself" method doesn't quite cut it. Also, outbidding by 1% myself doesn't prevent other from outbidding me by 0.01 isk afterwards.


Seriously? That's how it works?

That's absolute crap. Why would your purchase go to a different seller when you clicked on someone elses sell order to make the purchase?

That's not right. If that's the case, then THAT needs to change first off.

That is anti-RMT solution and protection against Average price manipulation in large hubs.


Now that's constructive input!

I haven't thought about the actual cost of the modification. It would make people think a bit more before they modify their orders and reward skilled characters more. I like it.

Also, could you explain how the current system protects against RMT and average price manipulation?

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#33 - 2013-06-12 11:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Also, could you explain how the current system protects against RMT and average price manipulation?

To be able to RMT via market one should be able to complete specific orders (usually done with worthless overpriced things). With current market system you cannot do so, preventing iskbuyer from receiving the isk from that particular order. It can be done in unpopulated systems, but then they are easy to trace. Same applies to average price - you cannot buy own overpriced things again and again and again as that will affect average prices.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#34 - 2013-06-12 11:22:13 UTC
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Also, could you explain how the current system protects against RMT and average price manipulation?

To be able to RMT via market one should be able to complete specific orders (usually done with worthless overpriced things). With current market system you cannot do so, preventing iskbuyer from receiving the isk from that particular order. Same applies to average price - you cannot buy own overpriced things again and again and again as that will affect average prices.


Yep, makes sense. Thank you!

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#35 - 2013-06-12 13:05:15 UTC
why??

People who play more (spend more time on the game) win market wars; people who think their own mined minerals are free loose - nothing wrong with this!
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-06-12 13:21:13 UTC
Increasing time limit on market order modification to one hour would help a lot.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Mmkay
Wealthy Tax Fugitives
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#37 - 2013-06-12 13:22:10 UTC
The Eve economy is almost entirely unregulated. It was designed and implemented that way. Adding regulations (minimum order modification amounts) is completely against what Eve is about and would set precedence for further regulation. Many human traders play the 0.01 ISK game simply because it is profitable.

Bots on the other hand are a problem that should be dealt with. But saying that every player that undercuts by 0.01 ISK is a bot is simply false and over-dramatic.
Adunh Slavy
#38 - 2013-06-12 15:23:02 UTC
Allowing the number of trades players can have at any one time would also stop the 0.01. Multiply the number of trades a player can have by a factor of 100 and the 0.01 ISK will be history.

This will make some people whine though, those that play the trade game on nothing but spread alone.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#39 - 2013-06-12 16:00:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
TL:DR but:

And this is how prices plummet all over New Eden because of the "big reducers" who knock of 5% to sell their items more cheaply but don't actually realise they are flattening the market out with it. Reducing by .01ISK is the most cost effective and balanced way to support the markets in the different regions. You pay 100ISK for the privilege of lowering it that amount so it is also a small ISK sink.

The OP should've said that once an item is listed at a certain price it cannot be modified unless cancelled and and re-added to the market with all the associated costs. That'd kill the .01ISK price changes and it's just as ludicrous as this idea.

-1 OP, just -1.

EDIT:

Also I like to play the "Market Wars" Mini-game whereby I sit and constantly click between my items on market to outbid the person who just tried to be the cheapest in the region...by .01 ISK and within 30 seconds while I mine. This entertains me, keeps them focused on the market and they might be bored mining and l like this mini-game as well. Why, oh why would you want to take that away from me. It's what breaks up my D-Scan > Ore Hold > Jet Can > Market Check > D-Scan ritual Lol

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#40 - 2013-06-12 17:25:14 UTC
People will always underbid someone by the minimum amount. It's simple, they want their product to move so they set it at the lowest price, they however still want to maximize profit so they set it as high as they can while still maintaining the lowest offer. If you drop your value down 1-5%, that is just you cutting into your profit margins. You have to look at how many items the seller/buyer is attempting to move to see if it's even worth undercutting/overbidding them. If you adjust your price to compensate for someone making a better offer, that is your CHOICE. You can let your offer stand and just wait for their products to move before your do. Anytime someone modifies a market order, they get charged for it.

The only thing that will change from what the OP is suggesting is his thread title will go from 0.01 isk war to 1% war. If you increase the cost in modifying orders, smart people will only seed the market with a portion of their goods and undercut themselves if they deem that is is justified (which probably happens anyway).

If you do not like getting underbid/overbid by 0.01 isk, then only sell to purchase orders and only purchase through sell orders.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
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