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Insurance and Loss due to criminal activity

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Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#181 - 2011-10-24 16:24:24 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
Normally Insurance companies are in it to make money. (assuming they aren't being paid off by the Jove) So logically it would make since that if the company could find a reason to deny your claim and keep all of the isk you paid them, they would.

Receiving insurance for being killed by concord, is like running from the police after committing a crime, then wrecking your car and expecting your insurance company to cover it. Which to most people sounds lubricious... but I here in the UK you can get sued for defending yourself from a mugger... so I guess they have a different point of view


real insurance companies also don't pay out for non-policy holders like eve does

anyone who thinks of eve insurance as an actual insurance company instead of a game mechanic can be safely ignored


wait... I wanna do this one can I can I can I please Weaselior? lemme do this one....

ok, so insurance companies are in it to make money... that's true. even in EVE... I mean, the jove are definatley paying off Pend so that when the jove invade no one stands a chance since they won't care about properly fitting ships in a cost effective manor.

wait a minute, if insurance companies want to keep the isk that they would pay out, doesn't that mean that they'd negate your insurance for doing pvp/pve where you have a chance to be blown up? I mean, that's just player negligence at that point.

but in all seriousness, a RL example where this unthinkable thing in EVE happens, is here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=236039#post236039

yes, this is a RL example given. believe me when I say I know how hard it is to believe it, but it's not the only one. it just so happens that one happened to my older sister.

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo
EVE Trade Alliance
#182 - 2011-10-24 16:26:14 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
Normally Insurance companies are in it to make money. (assuming they aren't being paid off by the Jove) So logically it would make since that if the company could find a reason to deny your claim and keep all of the isk you paid them, they would.

Receiving insurance for being killed by concord, is like running from the police after committing a crime, then wrecking your car and expecting your insurance company to cover it. Which to most people sounds lubricious... but I here in the UK you can get sued for defending yourself from a mugger... so I guess they have a different point of view


real insurance companies also don't pay out for non-policy holders like eve does

anyone who thinks of eve insurance as an actual insurance company instead of a game mechanic can be safely ignored


Actually i think the problem is that CCP calls it insurance.

Really it should be called:
"Free money, provided you lose your ship in this time span"
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#183 - 2011-10-24 16:31:38 UTC
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
Normally Insurance companies are in it to make money. (assuming they aren't being paid off by the Jove) So logically it would make since that if the company could find a reason to deny your claim and keep all of the isk you paid them, they would.

Receiving insurance for being killed by concord, is like running from the police after committing a crime, then wrecking your car and expecting your insurance company to cover it. Which to most people sounds lubricious... but I here in the UK you can get sued for defending yourself from a mugger... so I guess they have a different point of view


real insurance companies also don't pay out for non-policy holders like eve does

anyone who thinks of eve insurance as an actual insurance company instead of a game mechanic can be safely ignored


Actually i think the problem is that CCP calls it insurance.

Really it should be called:
"Free money, provided you lose your ship in this time span"

Pretty much. It is a mineral refund, not insurance. The only similarity with real insurance that it has is that you sometimes get money from it.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#184 - 2011-10-24 16:34:53 UTC
Rocky Deadshot wrote:
Actually i think the problem is that CCP calls it insurance.

Really it should be called:
"Free money, provided you lose your ship in this time span"
Probably. Although a better name would be “ore value balance index” or “miner work subsidy”… P
Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2011-10-24 16:38:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Silent Lamb
March rabbit wrote:
Silent Lamb wrote:

.....
well, most suicide gankers won't suicide gank you if it's not worth their while... if you don't have nice drops they won't gank you anywhere near the amount they do now. I mean yeah, some people are just dicks, wait... aren't you supposed to be a xShadow of Deathx pilot? dude, stop trolling. I'm trying to bring logic to these whiners so that people like you can continue to suicide gank in high sec, which actually gives me a lot of business since I make hulks.
....
you're under the assumption suicide gankers gank for the hell of it and not because it profits them? dude, you're either trolling, in denial of the truth, or unaware that far less covetors get ganked vs hulks as almost no one fits stuff on covetors worth ganking them. also, you need to acknowledge that it's easier to make 20 mil than it is 200. you're also refusing to acknowledge that as well as the fact you shouldn't fly what you can't afford to lose (hm, that's a common theme here)...

you are funny. Have you ever heard about Goons (with their bounty on killed industrials) and hulkageddon (with billions on prises for the most succesfull killers)? You speaks like you never heard about "carebear tears".
Well. I can imagine that somewhere in dark corners of Eve university we can find real pirate who attacks his victims to get ISKies.... But i'm pretty sure (and what i see only proves it) that 99% of miners didn't killed because of deadspace/faction stuff but for lulz. So your ideas about defence wont simply work.

Silent Lamb wrote:

lol like I said... you're trolling. and you obviously don't like it that an industrialist is taking your side... rather petty. I would think you would appreciate an industrialist making valid, honest, helpful, logical suggestions and points in what the miners can do so they'll stop whining.

wait, you like their tears... n/m

you are wrong here Lol i'm not an industrialist but i prefer smart game play and not stupid "i win" button. That's why i'm against suicide gankers here. They simply play "IDKFA mode" (if you know what it means). That's why i support nerf of supers. But this is offtopic here.


I like how you take various parts of my posts, and completely ignore that I've often stated 'outside of hulkageddon'.

also, hulkageddon is a reason why so many exhumers get blown up... and people know about hulkageddon... hell, I know about hulkageddon, and I do my industry way in the boonies. during hulkageddon I put my exhumers away and use bantams/navistas's for the lols (with orca support). I also make sure my orca is tanked for the various incoming fleets that I am told about due to the intel channels I'm a member of during hulkageddon and I also keep a basi pilot on the orca. you say you prefer smart game play? you obviously have not read even half of my posts as I've stated in several of them there's 3 simple things people can do to not get ganked.

I've gotten this out of those 3 things:
(me) moving to a new spot outside of typical gank areas.
(others) urrr how are you going to make it harder to do it inside those areas though? i don wanna move waaaaah

(me) don't fit deadspace/officer/faction modules
(others) duh, uh, hm.... well what about hulkageddon?
(me) dude, don't fly an exhumer or mining barge during hulkageddon!

(me) if you can't afford to lose a hulk fly a covetor
(others) what if it's your last covetor
... while I want to strangle that specific person's neck I must remember that not everyone is intelligent, nor uses logic and/or reason to do things.
(me) don't fly what you can't afford to lose

so seriously, why do you guys keep whining when you can do things... easy things... that don't require you to spend isk or sp... and save yourselves and be more self sufficient?

EDIT:
besides, a covetor is a t1 ship. you can insure it and get a fair amount back to buy a new one. so the whole 'what if it's your last one' arguement isn't even a valid one.

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#186 - 2011-10-24 16:49:42 UTC
tis silly to use RW insurance companies as an example.
they would flat out refuse to insure anyone in new eden


and whos to say you didn't buy your insurance from a broker affiliated with a faction that don't give a crap if you **** all over the indies in gallent space?
DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#187 - 2011-10-24 17:14:28 UTC  |  Edited by: DireNecessity
Fille Balle wrote:


By your logic, just because people would no longer get insurance payouts, they would suddenly stop buying ships.


My logic says no such thing.

T’is your claim that, sans insurance, very few players would buy ships. If I follow you correctly this is because,being risk averse, players would never loose ships so they'd have no need to replace them.

I think a central theme underneath my logic is pretty clear:
One tends to get more of that which they incentivize.

Insurance incentivizes ship destruction by reducing the economic pain players suffer at ship loss. This was designed by CCP to promote PvP -- some of that PvP is relatively nonconsensual like suicide ganking. Promoting PvP this way affects EvE’s markets in a particular manner. Some players like this particular game mechanic and its affects – others don’t.

I greatly admire your shot gun approach to argumentation, “Here’s a few reasons why insurance sucks. Hmmm, that didn’t work. Here’s a couple more. Damn, still not convinced? Try this one on for size. Not on my side yet? Let me reach into my bag, I’ve dozens more.”

DireNecessity
Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#188 - 2011-10-24 17:31:07 UTC
DireNecessity wrote:
Insurance incentivizes ship destruction by reducing the economic pain players suffer at ship loss. This was designed by CCP to promote PvP -- some of that PvP is relatively nonconsensual like suicide ganking.

DireNecessity


don't the people who put on high isk valued modules invite the suicide gank for being such a juicy target? or if there's known events, like hulkageddon or whatever, isn't flying industrial based ships like exhumers, mining barges, orcas, etc... isn't that also inviting the suicide gankers since they'll potentially be more than compensated for their losses? (as well as have a chance for one of so many prizes)

please note, I am not arguing, disagreeing, or contradicting you. I'm pointing out how 'nonconsensual' should exclude those who do things to make their ship more of a target.

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q
DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#189 - 2011-10-24 18:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: DireNecessity
Silent Lamb wrote:
DireNecessity wrote:
Insurance incentivizes ship destruction by reducing the economic pain players suffer at ship loss. This was designed by CCP to promote PvP -- some of that PvP is relatively nonconsensual like suicide ganking.

DireNecessity


don't the people who put on high isk valued modules invite the suicide gank for being such a juicy target? or if there's known events, like hulkageddon or whatever, isn't flying industrial based ships like exhumers, mining barges, orcas, etc... isn't that also inviting the suicide gankers since they'll potentially be more than compensated for their losses? (as well as have a chance for one of so many prizes)

please note, I am not arguing, disagreeing, or contradicting you. I'm pointing out how 'nonconsensual' should exclude those who do things to make their ship more of a target.


Precisely why I chose the term "reltively nonconsensual."

I don't think we should remove blame from gankers by saying it’s the victim’s own damn fault. Suicide ganking is a rather mean thing to do. If one is ganked it’s entirely appropriate to be annoyed. At that point, however, one is at a crucial juncture:
Option 1) “That sucked! This game is broken. CCP should fix it.”
Option 2) “That sucked! How should I avoid it in the future?”

This is why your extensive list of things to do to avoid being ganked is so superb. It not only displays which option the player chooses but helps reveal their motivations for the choice.

One of the things being revealed (and Tip has been hammering away at this quite effectively) is that the player simply wants an easy button for their little corner of EvE and would like CCP to change game mechanics to provide it. I doubt CCP will be swayed by such a request. CCP markets EvE as difficult, brutal, cold, ruthless. If CCP took that away they’d generate massive player retention difficulties.

DireNecessity
Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#190 - 2011-10-24 20:10:51 UTC
DireNecessity wrote:
Silent Lamb wrote:
DireNecessity wrote:
Insurance incentivizes ship destruction by reducing the economic pain players suffer at ship loss. This was designed by CCP to promote PvP -- some of that PvP is relatively nonconsensual like suicide ganking.

DireNecessity


don't the people who put on high isk valued modules invite the suicide gank for being such a juicy target? or if there's known events, like hulkageddon or whatever, isn't flying industrial based ships like exhumers, mining barges, orcas, etc... isn't that also inviting the suicide gankers since they'll potentially be more than compensated for their losses? (as well as have a chance for one of so many prizes)

please note, I am not arguing, disagreeing, or contradicting you. I'm pointing out how 'nonconsensual' should exclude those who do things to make their ship more of a target.


Precisely why I chose the term "reltively nonconsensual."

I don't think we should remove blame from gankers by saying it’s the victim’s own damn fault. Suicide ganking is a rather mean thing to do. If one is ganked it’s entirely appropriate to be annoyed. At that point, however, one is at a crucial juncture:
Option 1) “That sucked! This game is broken. CCP should fix it.”
Option 2) “That sucked! How should I avoid it in the future?”

This is why your extensive list of things to do to avoid being ganked is so superb. It not only displays which option the player chooses but helps reveal their motivations for the choice.

One of the things being revealed (and Tip has been hammering away at this quite effectively) is that the player simply wants an easy button for their little corner of EvE and would like CCP to change game mechanics to provide it. I doubt CCP will be swayed by such a request. CCP markets EvE as difficult, brutal, cold, ruthless. If CCP took that away they’d generate massive player retention difficulties.

DireNecessity


wait, you mean EVE isn't supposed to be risk free like WoW has the option to be?

where even when you chose a pvp server you can still do things so that you never end up dying? not to mention in WoW you get your equipment back when you die... oh god, if these people are starting to try to get the WoW mechanics forced on EVE, I'm screwed! I make a living off of selling hulks and a few other things that I have t2 bpos for that I bought off the market back when they'd get that 1 set of seed on the market... and then go poof... (not to mention the what, 3 times I got lucky from the lottery... that was a jip... I know craploads of guys who got craploads more t2 bpos from the R&D agents. funny thing is that those guys are almost all now inactive with all those t2 bpos on thier accounts. if I knew how to get a hold of them in RL I'd pay to reactivate their accounts just so I could get the t2 bpos)

as for the 'easy button' a.k.a. World of Warcrap comparison ... you gotta admit.... it'd be really hilarious if people could just get back into their ships after 6 minutes, with fully functional modules... lol ... only to be ganked again. and what would be more hilarious than that is if they could only own 1 ship at a time and had to buy a new ship in station while at the same time selling the old one, thus completing the WoW mentality of you only have 1 body (in this case ship) ... wait, for the WoW graveyards (where people who don't have the guts to go back to where they died) people can be resurrected... but the graveyards are usually in areas (in the pvp areas at least) that the enemy faction can come and gank you.... so in EVE we'd have to have those graveyards in open space, away from station or gate guns... in addition to that, caldari and amarr couldn't kill caldari and amarr, while gallante and the slaves coudln't kill gallante and the slaves (referring to the races of pilots). oh man, I could go on and on, but I think I shouldn't have even done this to begin with.

I gained the WoW info from listening to mintchip's youtube channel. do not accuse me of playing that infadelizing stupifying and brain killing excuse of a brainwashing technique they call a 'game'.

note to ccp/dev/gm/whatever - if you want me to edit this post to be more to the point and less about wow (which isn't really off topic at the moment btw) let me know via EVEmail and I will change it. I admit I got a little out of hand, but I reserve to note that I wanted to go about 5x as long than I ended up going.

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q
Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#191 - 2011-10-24 20:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Silent Lamb
I'd like to bring something back up that fail bail (nor anyone else that's on the side for taking away insurance on CONCORDed ships) has yet to answer. and I feel it's necessary to get this answered by someone on their side.

Silent Lamb wrote:
Fille Balle wrote:
First I would like to state that I a not miner. I ahve mined on a few occations, but I used a Rokh. I have no intention of training up for a barge, as mining does not interest me. Secondly, I have already stated that I have never been suicide ganked. I've been ganked due to shooting an ore thief once, but I was fully aware of what would happen, and my insurance was about to run out anyways. The loss was minimal, and I certainly didn't shed any tears over the "loss".

It's not about your list being long, it's about all the content in your list. That's a lot of stuff.

As for game balance, your first point: "don't mine close to hubs". That's all great, but where is the mechanic to make it harder to gank near hubs?

As for the second point, I didn't realize you could insure the contents of a freighter. Because I know one thing for sure, after dynamic insurance costs were introduced, the payout should never be more than the cost of the ship. I naddition to that, where is the game mechanic that makes suicide gankers have to make trips with unfitted ships due to the risk of suddenly loosing their ships due to circumstances out of their control?

Again, I have never said remove suicide ganks from the game. But make them more balanced. As it stands, every arguement you make only further prover that the current status quo is in favor of the ganker.

As for your tactics in prenting loss of ships, what if they had shown up in minmatar ships? Would you scan their ships to see which ammo they had loaded before they arrived in the belt? Somehow I don't see that happening. Also, make a fresh character and see how long it takes to train up for a brutix or a cane. Now compare that to how long it takes to train up for a logistics ship which you required in order to keep your Orca alive.

Yet another fact that in my opinion clearly shows that the status quo heavily favors the ganker.


well, I never said to insure the contents of the freighter, nor that you could. what I'm getting at is that you can get another freighter easier. also, are you stating that it should be harder to suicide gank at the hubs? may I ask why you feel that way? why can't you and other hulk pilots do what i do, which is not mine or preform industry near the major hubs? what's so hard about that?

also, you were complaining that my points were too long... so i'll shorten it for you since apparently you can't separate out what's the point and then what's the reason for doing it.

1. if you can't afford to lose a hulk fly a covetor and don't fit it with deadspace/faction modules.
2. don't fly hulks with deadspace/faction modules
3. don't fly hulks in high traffic areas.

I don't see what's wrong with doing any of those points. and what's funny is you haven't voiced any. you merely implied that it should be harder to gank at the hubs. ok, I'll ask this then. Fail bail, if that is indeed your name, why should it be harder to gank at hubs? why can't you just do your industry away from the hubs? also, I know several people that are big in industry who stop 6 or 7 jumps from a hub and put their stuff up on courier contracts to be carried to the hub. it should be obvious that they put enough collateral on the goods to pay for them if they had gone to market. besides, there's always freighter pilots looking for more courier contracts... it's a part of why we have them to begin with... and those freighter pilots are obviously knowledgeable about the risks, or they wouldn't do so many of them.

EDIT: oh, as for the pilots and if they had shown up in minmatar ships question... I would not have taken my orca out, I would have kept it in dock. if you think that people don't have various intel channels during hulkageddon and share who is where and in what race of ship then you're not as smart are you're trying to be (which is obvious anyway). I only take it out if there's gallante, hybrid based caldari, or amarr ships passing by as I know what to tank for with those.


my emphasis is on the stuff that I bolded in the quotes. I shall restate the questions so that they are easier to understand and less confusing.

Fail bail, (or anyone else on his side), Why should high traffic areas and/or hubs be harder to to suicide gank at? may I ask why you feel that way? why can't you and other hulk pilots do what i do, which is not mine or preform industry near the major hubs? what's so hard about that?

and I'd like to ask another set of questions that I honestly feel merits being answered. When one puts high end modules (like making a 30 bil isk maurader with a crapload of officer modules... twice...) on a ship in general, why do you think you won't eventually be targeted by (a) suicide ganker(s) when you flaunt that you do it and mostly fly it around hubs (like dodixie)? If you don't want the risk of getting blown up to be so high, why not go to say Nalu, or Wuos (which is like 8 jumps from jita btw), or one of the crapload other systems I will not mention as I'm sharing where people with very high cost ships go to mission since suicide gankers don't hang out there... I mean, are you that dense, that stubborn, or just stupid that you refuse to do it and are (in my opinion) deliberately putting yourself in a known area to get ganked?

I seriously would like fail bail or someone else on his side of the debate to answer those questions. I feel it necessary for them to be honest about the answers too, as it will provide insight to what this arguement is really about, or if there is indeed a problem (which I don't see).

EDIT:
Fail Bail, do you mind if I just call you 'Fail'?
if you do, I could just call you 'F' for e'F'fort

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q
theteck
#192 - 2011-10-24 21:42:22 UTC
/signed give consequence to this action

--------------------------------------------------------------------------- | I'm from Québec and english its my secondary language... | 
Vertisce Soritenshi
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2011-10-24 21:43:54 UTC
I support this novel and new idea that has not been posted 20 thousand times!

Bounties for all! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2279821#post2279821
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#194 - 2011-10-24 22:50:21 UTC
Mag's wrote:
None of which negates the fact that a gankee can mitigate the risk. You even listed some of them in your reply.
But the fact that you think training tanking skills is wasted time, again speaks volumes about your stance on this topic.

Also when people suggest change, the onus is upon them to give valid reasons why it is needed.


Twisting words and taking them out of context. I never once mentioned wasted skillpoints. However, the last time I checked, tanking skills don't allow for more manufacturing jobs, or more market orders, nor do they increase mining yield.

And you have the audacity to tell me I'm cemented on my side of the fence.

Silent Lamb wrote:
fail bail, are you suggesting that getting shield hardeners or resist amps takes too much time, or that it takes time in general?


Yes, because hardeners is all you need to train for in order to field a decent tank.


Silent Lamb wrote:
fail bail, (can I just call you fail?) you have a good point that player retention is needed (by the way your spelling is horrid. not saying mine is perfect, but omg!) and I agree, player tension is needed. however, removing insurance isn't going to have people any less likely to do 'random ganks' as you put it. the people who do random ganks are dicks who don't care. they will still do it, probably just to spite people like you.


Yes, now I am actually dyslectic. But never mind that. If you removed insurance, at least those, well, let's say not so very nice people who don't care will have less isk to not care with, if you catch my drift.

You know, what I think is funny is that when people get wound up because they loose their ships you presume to lecture them and tell them that it's just a game. And yet you get so emotional about a simple discussion regarding that very same game that you feel the need to hurl insults at me and call me names.

What was that about pots and kettles again?

Either way, I can see that trying to discuss this has been a complete waste of time, and I have no intention of wasting anymore of mine. I have better things to do.

In fact, I think I'll go play the game, while there still is a game to play...

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!
Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#195 - 2011-10-24 23:12:32 UTC
Fille Balle wrote:
Yes, now I am actually dyslectic. But never mind that. If you removed insurance, at least those, well, let's say not so very nice people who don't care will have less isk to not care with, if you catch my drift.

You know, what I think is funny is that when people get wound up because they loose their ships you presume to lecture them and tell them that it's just a game. And yet you get so emotional about a simple discussion regarding that very same game that you feel the need to hurl insults at me and call me names.

What was that about pots and kettles again?

Either way, I can see that trying to discuss this has been a complete waste of time, and I have no intention of wasting anymore of mine. I have better things to do.

In fact, I think I'll go play the game, while there still is a game to play...


so then am i safe to assume that you're not going to answer the very valid questions that I've brought back up that no one has answered? here, I'll repeat them again so that you don't have to look back to find them.

Why should high traffic areas and/or hubs be harder to to suicide gank at? may I ask why you feel that way? why can't you and other hulk pilots do what i do, which is not mine or preform industry near the major hubs? what's so hard about that?

and I'd like to ask another set of questions that I honestly feel merits being answered. When one puts high end modules (like making a 30 bil isk maurader with a crapload of officer modules... twice...) on a ship in general, why do you think you won't eventually be targeted by (a) suicide ganker(s) when you flaunt that you do it and mostly fly it around hubs (like dodixie)? If you don't want the risk of getting blown up to be so high, why not go to say Nalu, or Wuos (which is like 8 jumps from jita btw), or one of the crapload other systems I will not mention as I'm sharing where people with very high cost ships go to mission since suicide gankers don't hang out there... I mean, are you that dense, that stubborn, or just stupid that you refuse to do it and are (in my opinion) deliberately putting yourself in a known area to get ganked?

I think it's funny that you think I'm emotional. everyone that knows me knows that I'm trying to get you to respond to those questions I have yet again listed above. you obviously didn't get my sarcasm.

when I made the crack about the tank, as most hulk pilots who get ganked have either B or A-type active or passive resist and/or faction/deadspace small shield boosters. one can switch those modules with 2 tech 1 hardeners (I'd recommend EM and thermal, EM because it's your lowest resist, and thermal because it's the most common damage type done. all weapon (turrets, missiles, smartbombs, drones, doomsday devices) all weapons have a thermal option... and what's more is that all 3 turret types can do thermal damage, with 2 turret types (hybrids and lasers) having no option but to do thermal damage. (kinetic is added for hybrids and EM is added for lasers). in addition to the 2 hardeners put on 2 small shield extenders (I prefer t2 but a meta 3 or 4 usually does the trick) and you will actually tank most suicide gankers. not all, and obviously if they engage you with omglolwtf numbers you'll be blown up. funny thing... if you can already fit the deadspace hardeners (let alone any shield hardener) then congrats! you can fly the above suggested tank without any further skilling! if they blow you up with that fit then you obviously did something to get targeted as they do not financially gain enough to merit blowing up a fit like that.

why won't anyone on fail's side answer my questions?

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q
Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
#196 - 2011-10-24 23:59:05 UTC
Silent Lamb wrote:
so then am i safe to assume that you're not going to answer the very valid questions that I've brought back up that no one has answered? here, I'll repeat them again so that you don't have to look back to find them.

Why should high traffic areas and/or hubs be harder to to suicide gank at? may I ask why you feel that way? why can't you and other hulk pilots do what i do, which is not mine or preform industry near the major hubs? what's so hard about that?

and I'd like to ask another set of questions that I honestly feel merits being answered. When one puts high end modules (like making a 30 bil isk maurader with a crapload of officer modules... twice...) on a ship in general, why do you think you won't eventually be targeted by (a) suicide ganker(s) when you flaunt that you do it and mostly fly it around hubs (like dodixie)? If you don't want the risk of getting blown up to be so high, why not go to say Nalu, or Wuos (which is like 8 jumps from jita btw), or one of the crapload other systems I will not mention as I'm sharing where people with very high cost ships go to mission since suicide gankers don't hang out there... I mean, are you that dense, that stubborn, or just stupid that you refuse to do it and are (in my opinion) deliberately putting yourself in a known area to get ganked?

I think it's funny that you think I'm emotional. everyone that knows me knows that I'm trying to get you to respond to those questions I have yet again listed above. you obviously didn't get my sarcasm.

when I made the crack about the tank, as most hulk pilots who get ganked have either B or A-type active or passive resist and/or faction/deadspace small shield boosters. one can switch those modules with 2 tech 1 hardeners (I'd recommend EM and thermal, EM because it's your lowest resist, and thermal because it's the most common damage type done. all weapon (turrets, missiles, smartbombs, drones, doomsday devices) all weapons have a thermal option... and what's more is that all 3 turret types can do thermal damage, with 2 turret types (hybrids and lasers) having no option but to do thermal damage. (kinetic is added for hybrids and EM is added for lasers). in addition to the 2 hardeners put on 2 small shield extenders (I prefer t2 but a meta 3 or 4 usually does the trick) and you will actually tank most suicide gankers. not all, and obviously if they engage you with omglolwtf numbers you'll be blown up. funny thing... if you can already fit the deadspace hardeners (let alone any shield hardener) then congrats! you can fly the above suggested tank without any further skilling! if they blow you up with that fit then you obviously did something to get targeted as they do not financially gain enough to merit blowing up a fit like that.

why won't anyone on fail's side answer my questions?


Sarcasm or not, name calling and insults still remain the same. I don't believe I've ever encountered anybody that uttered insults nor called people names if it was not a direct result of an emotional reaction.

I've already mentioned several times: I HAVE NEVER BEEN SUICIDE GANKED! Stop responding to me as if I have please.

And as to your question, I'll answer it with another question, why should suicide gankers have the monopoly of hubs and high traffic systems?

Why shouldn't they, well IMO because newer players are pretty much guaranteed to travel through those systems, simply because they don't know any better. I suppose we could add a list of places to avoid to the tutorial, but I have a faint suspicion that won't help a lot.

Also: you really ought to look up this, this, this and this. I suggest training those to lvl V for good measure. It'll help your tank a lot more than those pesky hardeners that you're so fond of.

Btw, I fail to understand how excactly hurling insults and calling people names can be described as sarcasm. But then again, I guess I just fail. I certainly do according to you, even though you know very little about me.

PS: If you wanna call me fail, feel free to do so. Whatever rocks your boat. Don't expect me to respond to you when you do so however.

Stop the spamming, not the scamming!
Silent Lamb
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#197 - 2011-10-25 09:24:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Silent Lamb
so then you're not going to answer the questions, which means that you don't want to admit that there's some very simple and easy things that can be done to prevent suicide ganking.

just so you know, I do fly my goods I make into major hubs and i don't get blown up in my freighter.

I really don't understand why those questions can't be answered.

Where are they taking the hobbits?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=VznlDlNPw4Q
DireNecessity
Mayhem-Industries
#198 - 2011-10-25 13:04:24 UTC  |  Edited by: DireNecessity
>>>DireNecessity puts on her role playing hat<<<

DireNecessity, leaning against the bar, sees the dejected young cub slouched in the corner. Sitting down next to him she asks, “Why so sad cub?”

“Got myself suicide ganked,” he replies pushing the report over to her.

“Wow,” she says examining the report, “That’s a punishing loss.”

Standing up, report held high for all to see, she bellows, “Virgin no more! Get this man a drink!!!”

Bewildered, he only catches pieces of the ensuing bedlam as vets line up to shake his hand, examine the report and place the obligatory gratuity gift of tritaniam on the table before him.
Vet A: “I remember my first suicide gank. What a kick in the nards! Set me back weeks.”
Vet B: “At least you weren’t carrying corp cargo. I was and let me tell you the CEO was none too pleased.”
Vet C: “Ooooh! Anna Artillery. I’d have paid good ISK to get my cherry popped by Anna Artillery.”

The bedlam quieting down, Dire sidles up close beside him and whispers, “So whatcha gonna do Pilot? Nurse revenge? Sluff it off as a business expense? Switch to ganking?”

“Pilot” he whispers to himself, “I’ve become a fellow Pilot.”

>>>DireNecessity removes her role playing hat<<<

EvE is well known for its steep learning curve. You’ve figured out the confusing interface. You’ve discerned how to make ISK and manhandle NPCs. You’ve started to inhabit your particular niche and you’ve begun to recognize you’re pretty good at it. Then this punch in the belly. Well friend, the steep incline never diminishes. Rather, the nature of the menace changes. It used to be the UI and NPCs and now it’s other players. Welcome to intermediate EvE. The insurance mechanic is working as intended.

DireNecessity
Mag's
Azn Empire
#199 - 2011-10-25 13:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Fille Balle wrote:
Mag's wrote:
None of which negates the fact that a gankee can mitigate the risk. You even listed some of them in your reply.
But the fact that you think training tanking skills is wasted time, again speaks volumes about your stance on this topic.

Also when people suggest change, the onus is upon them to give valid reasons why it is needed.


Twisting words and taking them out of context. I never once mentioned wasted skillpoints. However, the last time I checked, tanking skills don't allow for more manufacturing jobs, or more market orders, nor do they increase mining yield.
You fail to read dear sir, I said you thought training them was wasted time. I thought that's what you meant, when you said:

"Tanks require time to train for as well as SP which could have been used for training trade skills, mining skills or even training up for a freighter instead.".

So what did you mean with that sentence? Or do you now need to amend that one too?

However last time I checked, tanking skills help in mitigating the risk, which was the point we were discussing. Blink

Fille Balle wrote:
And you have the audacity to tell me I'm cemented on my side of the fence.
Well I didn't actually.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Vastek Non
State War Academy
Caldari State
#200 - 2011-10-25 14:11:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vastek Non
Its honestly quite laughable, and stinks of rank hypocrisy, that the 'suicide gankers' whining about the *possibility* of removal of insurance when Concorde is on the killmail, will also be the first (in all other circumstances) to loudly proclaim 'don't fly what you can't afford to lose'.

Well guess what champs, don't fly what you can't afford to lose Roll



And Tippia, honestly, I agree usually with your points on many things, however 'risk' in suicide ganking is just laughable and is making you look extremely foolish.
I have ganked many times and tbh, I have taken down 170-200m ISK ships with 3 x destroyers that returned 750k each after insurance. And as i'm sure you would know, the up front cost of each is probably only a touch over 1m isk.

So, I fit 1m isk ship with 2+ friends, warp to ice belt/undock/gate. I can then pull faces at the potential target for as long as I like, and they can do zip bar running away (unless I am -5 or wose, however that is easy enough to work around with alts to land ships at a safespot or an Orca/insta undock etc etc etc).
When I choose, I then open fire and potentially wipe out target, and receive insurance payout. 15 minutes later I rinse and repeat.

At no stage did I ever look at the insurance as some form of reward. It was purely conicidental. And honestly, how many players into suicide ganking can't afford a few destroyers, even uninsured.

And anything bigger, you just need to make sure the target is worth it. Its really not that hard, at least for most people.

As someone who has been on both sides, I can confirm that it is a rare day when there isn't at least one radom clown in local trying to find an easy mark to 'suicide'. Basically being a miner is actually a riskier profession than being a suicide ganker.

The risk man, the risk Cry