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(NOT WHAT YOU THINK) T3 Mining Barge
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Callic Veratar
#41 - 2013-06-14 16:38:30 UTC
Trying again, I messed around with some of the names a bit, and tried to make decisions about what's useful harder to make:

ORE Mining - Ore Mining reconfiguration (X% Yield bonus per level, +Strip Miners, Drone Bay for 5 light drones)
ORE Mining - Gas Mining reconfiguration (X% Bonus to gas yield per level, +Turret Hardpoints)
ORE Mining - Ice mining reconfiguration (X% Bonus to ice mining yield per level, +Strip Miners)

ORE Defensive - Adaptive Shielding (X% bonus to shield resistances per level)
ORE Defensive - Amplification Node (X% bonus to shield booster effectiveness per level, X% bonus to shield bot repair amount per level)
ORE Defensive - Supplemental Screening (X% Bonus to shield amount per level)

ORE Electronics - Ore Scanning Efficiency Array (X% bonus to Ore Scanning range per level, X% Bonus Ore, Gas, and Ice Miner range per level)
ORE Electronics - Mining Crystal Harmonic Generator (X% reduction to damage taken to mining crystals per level)
ORE Electronics - Automated Cycle Monitor (Role Bonus: Ore, Gas, and Ice Miners will deactivate early when there is less than a full cycle left to harvest or less than a full cycle left in the Ore Bay.)

ORE Engineering - Augmented Ore bay (+Xkm3 ore bay per level)
ORE Engineering - Mining Efficiency (X% Bonus to Ore, Gas, and Ice Miner Capacitor Use, X% Reduction to Ore, Gas, and Ice Miner Cycle Time)
ORE Engineering - Augmented Drone bay (+X Bonus to Drone Bay Cargo and Bandwidth, X% bonus to drone hit points, damage, and mining yield)

ORE Propulsion - Covert Reconfiguration (Role Bonus: Can fit Covops cloak, Can fit Covert Cyno Generator, Can use Covert Jump Bridges)
ORE Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier (Role Bonus: Immunity to non-targeted interdiction, X% increased agility per level)
ORE Propulsion - Warp Core Stabilization (+X Warp Core Strength Per Level)
Gorgoth24
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-06-14 16:55:35 UTC
@ Callic

Thanks for the template. I really like your electronics subsystems! The automated cycle monitor may require extra coding, but it's definitely one of those cool little tidbits that would make the T3 unique. I will add your subsystem suggestions to the bottom of the OP, and be looking for other people to endorse them over the electronics subs I initially posted.

I do have a few bonus to pick with you, though. I think that there should be a configuration that pairs covops cloak and interdiction nullifier for 0.0 mining. I also think allowing configurations where you can double-bonus mining yield or double-bonus drone damage makes it hard to balance. T3 are supposed to have lower direct yield then their T2 counterparts, so double-bonusing mining would mean gimping the initial mining output on non-bonused subs a bit much for my liking. But that's just my opinion. Also, the drone bonus was added in response to concerns about double-BS rat spawns in belts in 0.0, so making that seperate from the bonused ore bay (which is intended for long solo stays in 0.0) seems counterintuitive.

Could you provide some explanation as to why you chose to configure your subsystem template in this way, and how these changes improve upon the template in the OP?
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
#43 - 2013-06-16 03:00:47 UTC
Gorgoth24 wrote:
In reply to the earlier Rayzilla post (thanks enormously for the numbers, btw) I think the point there is to price this barge (with the subsystems included) in between an exhumer and a T1 mining barge. The question is, is there a middle ground between putting the Orca out of business with an enormous ore hold or making the barge as cheap as a T1 barge?

If it were price around 100-120m (the price of a viator to the low-end intended price of a navy BC) and the ore hold were set to 20km3 (less then half that of an Orca) and we were to use Rayzilla's earlier numbers to base our given profits per trip, you'd be looking at around 3/4 the price of your ship in your ore hold per trip. This would mean that, as long as you didn't die on your first or second trip, (which you shouldn't given all the advantages described) you'd be making a profit. Would this be horrendously abused? Is the balance off? I'd love to know your thoughts


Not a problem. I like crunching numbers.

I think the theme of most posts like this (by reasonable people, at least) has been to create a ship that works in low and null but doesn't put the existing ships "out of business".

I think the best way to do that is to apply role and skill bonuses to everything but yield and capacity and direct it to survivability which really isn't needed in high sec space.

The Procurer/Skiff is painfully close to being able to operate effectively outside of high sec, but not quite there. Some minor tweaks and I think CCP will have it. For a template, look at how they handle the transport ships. One version does WCS and the other does Covert Ops Cloak.

Once you get out into null, you really have nowhere to dock to refit, repair, refine or switch ships. You're on your own. You're also often times A LOT of jumps from the nearest station where you can do the above activities. I think we can easily fit a barge or exhumer to survive, evade or avoid fights, but once you get into the logistics of moving your product you hit the bottleneck.

You could form a small fleet, get a Rorqual and make a go at it, but how long until you make a profit that way? The going price of a Rorqual is 3 Billion to 4 Billion ISK right now. That's 750,000 to 1,000,000 m3 of Bistot! Now fit it, get your barges and fit them. 1,500,000 m3? How long does it take to grind that out? Zoiks Shaggy! Plus - a small fleet of miners is just tooooo tempting.

Your other option is to find an empty yet resource rich couple systems, but I am betting on average those are 20 jumps outside of high sec easily.

Your own POS? Now going to grind the numbers there - not worth it.

I had been thinking ninja mining in something like the Procurer/Skiff, but 20 jumps? Granted, that much Bistot is worth 60 million ISK, but how long does it take to gate that far? Not worth it.

I want the T3 idea to work because I really love the modularity of those ships - I'd love to see T3 versions of every class! But I just can't see how it could work well enough to justify the costs involved. Well...I could see it if it had a big ore hold and could refine its own yield and store in a big cargo hold. That actually makes sense to me. For argument's sake, let's say refining ore gives you 10m3 of minerals for each 1000m3 of ore (I like easy math). Give the ship a 20,000m3 ore hold. It fills it up, shuts down mining operations and hides somewhere to refine for a few minutes and gets 200m3 of minerals is stores in it's 2000m3 cargo bay. That gives 10 cycles of mining. Using Bistot, that's 800,000,000 ISK per trip (more when you consider the refined minerals are worth more in sum than the ore).

OK - so a 20,000m3 ore hold and 2000m3 cargo hold combined with a 1% refining yield might be a bit excessive, but you get the idea. CCP would have to fiddle with the numbers to make it work. In order for this ship to not kill off the other mining ships used almost exclusively in high sec, besides not bonusing yield and ore capacity make it's refinery efficiency one-half to one-third that of a station. In high sec, I wouldn't take that hit, but out in low sec? Yeah, I would.

Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
Rayzilla Zaraki
Yin Jian Enterprises
#44 - 2013-06-16 03:00:58 UTC
Another way to go, this time using T1 or T2 would be to modify the Orca. Take out it's maintenance bay in favor of allowing it to refine ore as above (Ice, too). You could also drop the fleet hangar in favor of more ore or regular cargo capacity (or take all or most of it away altogether to balance the fact it can refine). Then, drop the ability to use Mining Foreman Links, add another high slot and let it mount strip miners and/or ice harvesters. Since this brick would be so damn slow, give it a good WCS bonus, a lot of tank* and maybe some very effective EW/ECCM abilities - enough so a good pilot (with good skills) can survive long enough to warp away. This ship could be completely illegal in high sec (which I don't like as it would need to come to high sec to sell its product) or, mess with its mining abilities so much that high sec miners would be significantly better off using barges and exhumers. If that's not enough, allow it to travel through high sec without a problem, but if it lights up a strip miner, ice harvester or starts to refine ore in high sec, CONCORD confiscates the contents of the holds and/or the mining gear. If it can be kept Orca price, then we're looking at only 175,000m3 of unrefined Bistot. Maybe two trips and it's paid for? Worst case, it comes in at a cool billion ISK - 250,000m3 of Bistot.

Before getting all head up about the ability to refine - it does make sense from a real life perspective. Gold miners pretty much refine their own product - they separate it from the ore, pan out the gold, smelt out the impurities and have mostly pure gold ingots to take to market.

*Since it is operating so far away from stations, I prefer the shield tank since it regenerates. Another option would be to bonus armor repairers on it so they don't use a prohibitive amount of capacitor.

Gate campers are just Carebears with anger issues.
Callic Veratar
#45 - 2013-06-17 18:00:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Callic Veratar
Gorgoth24 wrote:
@ Callic

Thanks for the template. I really like your electronics subsystems! The automated cycle monitor may require extra coding, but it's definitely one of those cool little tidbits that would make the T3 unique. I will add your subsystem suggestions to the bottom of the OP, and be looking for other people to endorse them over the electronics subs I initially posted.

I do have a few bonus to pick with you, though. I think that there should be a configuration that pairs covops cloak and interdiction nullifier for 0.0 mining. I also think allowing configurations where you can double-bonus mining yield or double-bonus drone damage makes it hard to balance. T3 are supposed to have lower direct yield then their T2 counterparts, so double-bonusing mining would mean gimping the initial mining output on non-bonused subs a bit much for my liking. But that's just my opinion. Also, the drone bonus was added in response to concerns about double-BS rat spawns in belts in 0.0, so making that seperate from the bonused ore bay (which is intended for long solo stays in 0.0) seems counterintuitive.

Could you provide some explanation as to why you chose to configure your subsystem template in this way, and how these changes improve upon the template in the OP?


One thing to consider is that we didn't put real numbers in there, so, while a hulk may get 2 3% level bonuses to yield, the T3 may get a single 4-5% bonus. My intent for making the choice between covert ops or interdiction was that both on their own are very powerful and mixing them makes a nearly uncatchable ship. By forcing the choice, they can be made a bit more powerful, and both become very useful, but you have to fecide before you undock.

With the mining efficiency subystem, yes it double bonuses mining, but consider, we haven't discussed how big any holds will be. What if the strip miners filled the hold completely with a single cycle (or came really close with good skills)? Yes, you could double bonus your mining, but it would need heavy attention and at least one support ship to maintain. If you don't want to pay attention, you need to fit the bay extender.

When it comes to other things like soloing two battleships in nullsec, this ship should not be as good as the skiff is at tanking. Again, you're forced to chose between parking, defending, or speed. In my mind, when it comes to T3 ships, you should alway be faced with a choice where the other subsystem would be better and you wish you could have both. Balanced to a point of player frustration at what is best.
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