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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Sonar Probes (Finding Cloaked ships)

Author
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#41 - 2013-06-10 21:44:49 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
but you cant just sit for hours in one system... wel you can but you will turn up in local i realy think this would be awesome because the more secure the space the less delay and so the best ratting systems have long delays that give awesome PVP options

I would rather not show up in local at all.

Mining is tedious enough without advertising my presence for free to any scalawag who happens to peep into the system long enough to see the chat roster there.

And when I get grinding on my ice and ore, I do sit for hours.


then do what i did move to WH

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#42 - 2013-06-10 21:49:34 UTC
TheSkeptic wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:


because it is broken mechanics people keep bringing up ideas to fix it, that you dont have the wits to see the broken mechanics is obvious and i feel sympathy for you.


It only appears broken because of the broken mechanic that is local.

2 broken mechanics that balance themselves poorly... but at least it is somewhat balanced.


i never stated that local wasnt too strong on intel, i wouldnt because it is too strong. but read my delay idea

i think its an awesome idea (maybe some small tweaks) and will open up a ton of new fun PVP options

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#43 - 2013-06-10 22:01:23 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Ellendras Silver wrote:
but you cant just sit for hours in one system... wel you can but you will turn up in local i realy think this would be awesome because the more secure the space the less delay and so the best ratting systems have long delays that give awesome PVP options

I would rather not show up in local at all.

Mining is tedious enough without advertising my presence for free to any scalawag who happens to peep into the system long enough to see the chat roster there.

And when I get grinding on my ice and ore, I do sit for hours.


then do what i did move to WH

Spent a couple of months in a WH, did not fit my play style at all.

No market, no outposts, no stable logistics at all, really.

I did enjoy not having local, but the other differences were just too much to get past.

Not to mention, it is hard to secure your items to work outside of a POS for any duration. You can't mine while cloaked, left group ratting and PI as the only fun options. Go sleepers!
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#44 - 2013-06-10 22:07:43 UTC
Relevant in any anti-cloaking thread.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Renegade Leader
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2013-06-10 23:02:11 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
The whole point of a cloak is that it bends things: light, sound, rf, ect. around it.... evidently not local chat though.



The only thing a cloak does, at least in real life as there are cloaks that are being developed, is bend light. It does nothing to deviate sound or any other detection systems. For stealth we use various angles to deflect radar. A cloak only alters the ability to visualize something through the bending light waves. Such ships can still be tract through other means. Although sound wouldn't be one of them as you would need air or water to carry the sound wave back. There is no sound in space. However ships do leave exhaust gasses in their wake. So it could be conceivable to detect a ship once you know the method of its propulsion. Each race uses a different method to power their ships.
Grunnax Aurelius
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#46 - 2013-06-10 23:15:40 UTC
If only I had 1 isk for every afk thread that showed up.... I'd be a rich man!!!

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=342042&find=unread

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#47 - 2013-06-10 23:22:28 UTC  |  Edited by: S Byerley
Renegade Leader wrote:
S Byerley wrote:
The whole point of a cloak is that it bends things: light, sound, rf, ect. around it.... evidently not local chat though.



The only thing a cloak does, at least in real life as there are cloaks that are being developed, is bend light. It does nothing to deviate sound or any other detection systems. For stealth we use various angles to deflect radar. A cloak only alters the ability to visualize something through the bending light waves. Such ships can still be tract through other means. Although sound wouldn't be one of them as you would need air or water to carry the sound wave back. There is no sound in space. However ships do leave exhaust gasses in their wake. So it could be conceivable to detect a ship once you know the method of its propulsion. Each race uses a different method to power their ships.


Cloaking (admittedly informally) refers to actual bending rather than deflection. The scattering used in stealth technology is obviously easier, but from one form of EM radiation (light) it's not hard to adapt the technique to different frequencies and research is already progressing in that direction. I think a lot of the earlier stuff was actually done on microwaves?

Similarly, various research groups have also been tackling sound (from a quick google search): http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/349255/description/Sound_cloaks_enter_the_third_dimension
Solutio Letum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-06-11 01:14:20 UTC
Sonar is when you use some kind of sound wave in water, space is not filled with water dude
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#49 - 2013-06-11 03:18:49 UTC
Solutio Letum wrote:
Sonar is when you use some kind of sound wave in water, space is not filled with water dude


Tell that to my max speed Ugh
Azrael Dinn
Imperial Mechanics
#50 - 2013-06-11 05:55:57 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Oh, it's this idea AGAIN. That's what, three times this week?


And yet again someone is saying something about it.

Funny thing is that you forum nerds just don't want admit that it is a problem.

After centuries of debating and justifying... Break Cloaks tm

Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#51 - 2013-06-11 10:43:39 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Oh, it's this idea AGAIN. That's what, three times this week?


And yet again someone is saying something about it.

Funny thing is that you forum nerds just don't want admit that it is a problem.


indeed its a fact that so many people see an issue from one side or another side or both sides (like me) but those guys are just repeating without reading.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#52 - 2013-06-11 12:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Jint Hikaru wrote:
They are doing EXACTLY the same as people AFK in a station / outpost / POS.... but I never see posts asking for a way to eject those people from their places of safety.

Why would people ask for such a thing when they have tools to prevent it .. outpost docking rights are player controlled, POS can be removed and stations are only present in NPC space (ie. conscious choice on latent complainers part). You managed to use an example that has absolutely no relevance to the discussion .. politician/spin-doctor in real life I take it? Smile
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Cloaking mechanics are not broken. Intel mechanics are broken. Let's be correct here.

One post on three whole pages gets it, and here I was ready to throw the towel in on mankinds behalf. Intel, both overt and covert, is the main issue that needs to be solved.


Intel (local included) is part of it, another is the ability to move unlimited assets to location in the time it takes an interceptor to get lock and yet another is the ability of a cloaked vessel to obtain a near perfect intel picture without ever being detected itself.

There is no "one" solution to it, delaying local alone addresses only part of it and will never happen because the outcome is obvious making both CCP and null bears opponents overnight ... can you imagine being able to not only cyno **** around at will but also be able to move through any system giving deeper systems no forewarning except from alt scouts spammed everywhere.

It all boils down to intel and the limitations of the tools we have available .. We need an intelligence/counter-intelligence system.

PS (mandatory antagonizing poke): Since AFK cloakers are obviously not an issue except for their ability to mess with peoples calm/minds, then you proponents wouldn't mind in the slightest that cyno-gens and cloaks were mutually exclusive .. would you? Big smile
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#53 - 2013-06-11 12:19:35 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Oh, it's this idea AGAIN. That's what, three times this week?


And yet again someone is saying something about it.

Funny thing is that you forum nerds just don't want admit that it is a problem.


Just because a vocal minority of people who don't understand this game are crying about something does not make it a valid issue.

You chose to live in nullsec, a deliberate key aspect of that area of the game is the dangers and uncertainty. If you don't like those aspects, pick a different area of the game. Simple.
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#54 - 2013-06-11 12:28:45 UTC
Azrael Dinn wrote:
I have absolute no idea what are you talking about but who cares Lol


This was from a different thread about the situation in reverse. It says everything that needs to be said about your understanding.

As TheGunslinger42 says, if you don't get it please feel free to go to WH space or, and in your case I think this is probably best, high sec.
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations
#55 - 2013-06-11 12:36:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
Cloaking isn't the problem.. and neither is local. In every one of these threads, 1 and usually only 1 person actually hits it on the head. Still waiting for it in this thread.



I am really beginning to believe null sex is full of carebears. A cloaked shipped is really so powerful that it can "shutdown an entire system for hours". The AFK cloaked ships are even more powerful?
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#56 - 2013-06-11 12:44:14 UTC
I once (years ago) thought this would be a good idea and psoted it here. I got laughed at.

I can see why. EVE Online gives us all more than enough tools to deal with cloakers.

-Local
-The ability to fleet up
-ECM Bursts (if you get caught)
-Warp Corp Stabs (to keep you from getting caught)
-Target Breakers (perhaps helpful if you get hot dropped)
-Remote Repair Mods (to help your small ratting or mining group be tough enough to survive till help comes or the gankers get bored)


Last Week some alliance mates of mine used 3 regular Domis (Dominii?) for ratting while remote repping/energy transferring his small fleet when a Tengu (which had been afking) popped up and hot dropped.

Result? Dead Tengu (and a dead Talos). Of course bad guys can bring enough guys to kill any set up like that (they wouldn't care, Domis are relatively cheap and easy to replace), but the point is, the game already give us everything we need to counter cloakys, it's just that people don't want to use them.
Annunaki soldier
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-06-11 12:52:31 UTC
cloak is fine. Its risk vs reward. You will either risk that juicy pve ship or make a bait and kill what will show up. Either way its not high sec. So clone there and do incursions or live the thrill

you can always rat in nearby systems. That will allow people to have a chance getting you that is game content for many here. Respect them

Ride hard, live with passionĀ 

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#58 - 2013-06-11 13:13:17 UTC
Annunaki soldier wrote:
cloak is fine. Its risk vs reward. You will either risk that juicy pve ship or make a bait and kill what will show up. Either way its not high sec. So clone there and do incursions or live the thrill

you can always rat in nearby systems. That will allow people to have a chance getting you that is game content for many here. Respect them


That's a good point that too many people don't recognize when they suggest changes.

The current system works, and sometimes those afk cloakers aren't AFK and they kill ships. While getting your ship killed sucks, it's GREAT for the game's economy. In fact, "afk cloakers" help the game by controlling inflation. Without them we'd be able to rat and mine null sec systems to the bare bone (sure it would all re spawn, I'm using a figure of speech), by disrupting our activity cloakers and others who come in to our systems providing gameplay opportunities.

Till recently I always used expensive ships to farm anoms in null sec and NO ONE hated a cloaker coming in and camping more than I did. i still don't much like it from a purely selfish point of view. But beyond that purely selfish point of view I can see how the current status quo actually has some real benefits for the game. I've adapted by lessening my risk (using tech1 BSs to rat) and using the tools EVE gives me.
Solutio Letum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-06-11 14:50:27 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Solutio Letum wrote:
Sonar is when you use some kind of sound wave in water, space is not filled with water dude


Tell that to my max speed Ugh


I did not say that your ship did not interact with nothing, i said there was no actual particles to use a sonar radar in space.

Your ship Probebly interacts with the higgs feild to make you turn around providing you with agility, but this also makes it impossible to go at a much higher speed, but no worries, we invented warp drives for a reason, and jump drives for another making top speeds useless in most space travel situations
Solutio Letum
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2013-06-11 14:58:09 UTC
Maybe it should be possible to Detect a cloaked ships, like its possible to detect a stealth submarine, maybe they should give you a panel for detections while scanning with probes and you can find random signatures, most of what is going to be light waves, but the ship was uncloaked some time meaning light DID in fact hit it, so if you where able to make up where he was by seeing some little faith lights in a panel it would be fun....

BUT again this is almost impossible, there is so much **** in the ocean you just cant find a stealth submarine if you dont know its there, although with good enough systems, you could actually find it...... but what tells you its not just a random debrits?... i think ccp should of remade the scanning game a bit, to be more like if you where looking for sigs, and put some bad ones in there where you just fall on a random asteroids damn :P... like most explorers, its normal to find something totally useless, just ask the one who found the american continent.. oh wait...

meh current things are fine for now... maybe one day its going to be more complex and a bit more exploitative.. or its going to stay the same like the bounty system