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Cynoship nerf
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Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2013-06-28 12:20:57 UTC
Rune Scorpio wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Rune Scorpio wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Ok nice dodge on the questions there, you're not going to answer thats cool, i get it, you only want to be the ganker not the guy getting ganked.

You asked one question and I answered it. The rest was a rant about us not undocking into a blob like everyone else that likes small gang warfare.
Fail troll.


Its not a troll bud, if you're so worried about fair game play I expect that you're willing to never engage a solo player with a small gang again right?

Right?


Oh you're not, your just another hypocrite who wants to gank people risk free?

Gotcha.


EDIT: And you didn't answer my question at all actually.

EDIT EDIT: Ahahaha, I see you did, your basic response is that its ok that you do it because.

I'm sure solo guys have ample chances to escape being pointed by 9 or 10 dudes, I'm also sure that on Sunday mornings at day break you sing a stunning rendition of Ave Marie while a gaggle of newborn baby monkeys take flight from your virgin rectum.


If you don't understand how ships can escape tacklers at gates or when flying around then perhaps you need more experience flying around solo. People regularly escape traps myself and others set. Believe it or not the rest of the combat mechanics are working quite nicely.
Back on topic please this is a discussion on the mechanics and how changes would affect gameplay.


I'm actually on topic, your post is nothing more than a thinly veiled cry for your own ganking to be validated while others ganking is vilified.

Also your own ineptitude at tackling often is repeated on cyno drops where the cyno ship dies before we materialize, the tackled target simply drives away from the ship that can't move before we materialize, or any number of other problems that occur (its one guy, you'd be shocked at how many people are smart enough to simply put ECM drones on the cyno ship and then lolololol away).

Again, this isn't an issue, this is simply you wanting to gank solo ships without fear, the game would be less dynamic and more bland with you running around grabbing every solo guy you find, at least now you have to wonder if its going to light a cyno and not fly like an idiot (you know, stay out of scram/web range while tackling it, have an out plan, coordinate with your fleet beyon approach then DPS).

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Purps
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-06-28 12:53:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Purps
A few suggestions,

First: Change the way cyno works, so the the cyno ship must have full cap to fire it, if they've been webbing etc. first, they have to recover the energy. Not great as a cap booster will sort this out. [Edit: it's been a while since I've actually lit one, so not sure if this doesn't happen already]

Second: Have a decent spool up time on the cyno, once everything has off-lined properly the cyno will fire up.

Third: You have to be off timers to fire up the cyno, if you've aggressed something, you aren't spamming a fleet in until it's clear (Maintaining the cyno takes that much processing power, you have to wait for your combat systems to wind down first).

I like the idea of the bridging ship being forced through the jump as part of the process, it might make people think twice about using a Titan for a free gank if the Titan is at risk (more supercap fights/deaths are always good). Although I'm in two minds about this being a Widow pilot lol.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#83 - 2013-06-28 13:42:07 UTC
Rune Scorpio wrote:
I have repeatedly seen blops fleets nuke through a target before people can even clear warp let alone have a fleet large enough on hand to take down 20 guys.

This has nothing to do with the cyno, and everything to do with alpha DPS.
Are you saying they would have done less damage if they warped onto the grid as a group, rather than be dropped?

If so, why?

The only difference between these two tactics, is the amount of warning provided to the target.
DPS has no bonus either way, so does not change.

So the difference becomes very specific to how much warning the target has before the hostile can land on grid and begin locking them.
They will have to earn their intel, if local stops giving it away, or do without.
If they have to earn their intel, ANY hostile or unknown ship will trigger a similar reaction. A cyno ship or a scout leading hostile ships through gates will both result in several hostile vessels applying their DPS.

The cyno alone offers the target the means to abort the process, or simply evade it by ECM'ing the tackle and warping off safely.
The gate travelers have fewer vulnerabilities to being avoided like this, and more opportunities to catch this target.

Rune Scorpio wrote:
People WILL continue hotdropping even with no local. It will really turn into large fleets only as people will be unable to undock with anything less since fleets of covops will just blob solo people. Ever see a bomber fleet nuke a target with torps? It goes FAST and everyone can just cloak up when the help arrives meaning its literally just the one covert cyno stuck for one minute.

And yet the means by which they arrive take away nothing from their overall DPS nor their alpha.


Rune Scorpio wrote:
Cynos need a nerf. They have been OP for far too long and removing local is not an effective solution. It will make the game very dry and suck the fun out of it. Hey guess what I like talking to people I'm shooting. I like looking at peoples bios and reading their employment history.
Without local you just have to know the locals which can be done easily over a couple of days cloaking and using the various tools like eve who and eve kill/battleclinic and watchlist them. Done, now they can be hotdropped since we know they can't respond with anything that can hurt us.
Without local it wont even be standard hotdrops. They will be rendered obsolete by blops and straight up covops blobs.

So long as people get free and perfect intel, the method that permits the least possible level of warning will enjoy the most success.

If the warning becomes effort reliant, and limited by other factors such as range and uncertainty, other more practical methods of surprising targets can be used with greater success.

The most efficient method is the standard. Hot dropping will stop being the most efficient when the warnings stop being absolute.
If people can't spot things 20 AU away reliably, then staging 25 AU away will outperform dropping, since you can't stop the fleet by popping the lead ship anymore.
Add to that, the attack group has completed loading all the clients to the new system, and can align to the target to arrive simultaneously.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Rune Scorpio
Fixers Corporation
Pillars of Liberty
#84 - 2013-06-28 14:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rune Scorpio
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Rune Scorpio wrote:
I have repeatedly seen blops fleets nuke through a target before people can even clear warp let alone have a fleet large enough on hand to take down 20 guys.

This has nothing to do with the cyno, and everything to do with alpha DPS.
Are you saying they would have done less damage if they warped onto the grid as a group, rather than be dropped?

If so, why?

The only difference between these two tactics, is the amount of warning provided to the target.
DPS has no bonus either way, so does not change.

So the difference becomes very specific to how much warning the target has before the hostile can land on grid and begin locking them.
They will have to earn their intel, if local stops giving it away, or do without.
If they have to earn their intel, ANY hostile or unknown ship will trigger a similar reaction. A cyno ship or a scout leading hostile ships through gates will both result in several hostile vessels applying their DPS.

The cyno alone offers the target the means to abort the process, or simply evade it by ECM'ing the tackle and warping off safely.
The gate travelers have fewer vulnerabilities to being avoided like this, and more opportunities to catch this target.

Rune Scorpio wrote:
People WILL continue hotdropping even with no local. It will really turn into large fleets only as people will be unable to undock with anything less since fleets of covops will just blob solo people. Ever see a bomber fleet nuke a target with torps? It goes FAST and everyone can just cloak up when the help arrives meaning its literally just the one covert cyno stuck for one minute.

And yet the means by which they arrive take away nothing from their overall DPS nor their alpha.


Rune Scorpio wrote:
Cynos need a nerf. They have been OP for far too long and removing local is not an effective solution. It will make the game very dry and suck the fun out of it. Hey guess what I like talking to people I'm shooting. I like looking at peoples bios and reading their employment history.
Without local you just have to know the locals which can be done easily over a couple of days cloaking and using the various tools like eve who and eve kill/battleclinic and watchlist them. Done, now they can be hotdropped since we know they can't respond with anything that can hurt us.
Without local it wont even be standard hotdrops. They will be rendered obsolete by blops and straight up covops blobs.

So long as people get free and perfect intel, the method that permits the least possible level of warning will enjoy the most success.

If the warning becomes effort reliant, and limited by other factors such as range and uncertainty, other more practical methods of surprising targets can be used with greater success.

The most efficient method is the standard. Hot dropping will stop being the most efficient when the warnings stop being absolute.
If people can't spot things 20 AU away reliably, then staging 25 AU away will outperform dropping, since you can't stop the fleet by popping the lead ship anymore.
Add to that, the attack group has completed loading all the clients to the new system, and can align to the target to arrive simultaneously.


The main difference between a fleet warping in and being cynoed on is the time before the blob has point and lays down dps. I have literally seen guys be offgrid and waiting hit warp as a cyno goes up and land and the pod is warping off. Means the best way to pvp is to sit on a titan and not take out a fleet to hunt. Picking targets is easy and if too much stuff shows up cyno isnt lit ship tries to escape or dies solo. No real risk.

Too true about the most effective method we need balance in the most effective.
Intel means nothing if you can tackle and nuke a target with 0 chance of them escaping in the time a hotdrop happens. Oh no stuff appearing on dscan. Everyone cloak up....
Its the same no risk pvp that makes this game lethargic and keeps people docked.
Rune Scorpio
Fixers Corporation
Pillars of Liberty
#85 - 2013-06-28 15:05:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rune Scorpio
Purps wrote:
A few suggestions,

First: Change the way cyno works, so the the cyno ship must have full cap to fire it, if they've been webbing etc. first, they have to recover the energy. Not great as a cap booster will sort this out. [Edit: it's been a while since I've actually lit one, so not sure if this doesn't happen already]

Second: Have a decent spool up time on the cyno, once everything has off-lined properly the cyno will fire up.

Third: You have to be off timers to fire up the cyno, if you've aggressed something, you aren't spamming a fleet in until it's clear (Maintaining the cyno takes that much processing power, you have to wait for your combat systems to wind down first).

I like the idea of the bridging ship being forced through the jump as part of the process, it might make people think twice about using a Titan for a free gank if the Titan is at risk (more supercap fights/deaths are always good). Although I'm in two minds about this being a Widow pilot lol.


The bridging ship coming through isn't a bad idea but really it would mean most people will never use a titan to move fleets like needs to be done. Kinda limits their use to friendly systems only or to engaged cap fights where they are needed anyways. Or to the main issue. Risk free ganks.
cyno timer would work I think if it didn't advertise the beacon in system only on grid during spool up. Defending alpha fleets would deny cynos if they appeared in local.
Aggression stopping a cyno would be good but really the issue would still be it lights the cyno and then points and webs an aggressor or victim.
Rune Scorpio
Fixers Corporation
Pillars of Liberty
#86 - 2013-06-28 15:11:46 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Rune Scorpio wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Rune Scorpio wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

Ok nice dodge on the questions there, you're not going to answer thats cool, i get it, you only want to be the ganker not the guy getting ganked.

You asked one question and I answered it. The rest was a rant about us not undocking into a blob like everyone else that likes small gang warfare.
Fail troll.


Its not a troll bud, if you're so worried about fair game play I expect that you're willing to never engage a solo player with a small gang again right?

Right?


Oh you're not, your just another hypocrite who wants to gank people risk free?

Gotcha.


EDIT: And you didn't answer my question at all actually.

EDIT EDIT: Ahahaha, I see you did, your basic response is that its ok that you do it because.

I'm sure solo guys have ample chances to escape being pointed by 9 or 10 dudes, I'm also sure that on Sunday mornings at day break you sing a stunning rendition of Ave Marie while a gaggle of newborn baby monkeys take flight from your virgin rectum.


If you don't understand how ships can escape tacklers at gates or when flying around then perhaps you need more experience flying around solo. People regularly escape traps myself and others set. Believe it or not the rest of the combat mechanics are working quite nicely.
Back on topic please this is a discussion on the mechanics and how changes would affect gameplay.


I'm actually on topic, your post is nothing more than a thinly veiled cry for your own ganking to be validated while others ganking is vilified.

Also your own ineptitude at tackling often is repeated on cyno drops where the cyno ship dies before we materialize, the tackled target simply drives away from the ship that can't move before we materialize, or any number of other problems that occur (its one guy, you'd be shocked at how many people are smart enough to simply put ECM drones on the cyno ship and then lolololol away).

Again, this isn't an issue, this is simply you wanting to gank solo ships without fear, the game would be less dynamic and more bland with you running around grabbing every solo guy you find, at least now you have to wonder if its going to light a cyno and not fly like an idiot (you know, stay out of scram/web range while tackling it, have an out plan, coordinate with your fleet beyon approach then DPS).


Lots of solo guys roaming around looking for fights would be bland?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2013-06-28 15:29:40 UTC
Rune Scorpio wrote:


Lots of solo guys roaming around looking for fights would be bland?


Lets be very clear here and drop the lies, you're not as a solo guy getting dropped on through a cyno.

You are as a small gang engaging a solo target you see as an easy kill and getting your teeth kicked in, in other words your gank is going the opposite way that you want.

Again, you can drop the wounded solo PVP'r act because nobody wastes the effort to go after a solo player unless you're in a multi billion isk ship, other wise its your small gang getting dropped through that cyno.



Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Rune Scorpio
Fixers Corporation
Pillars of Liberty
#88 - 2013-06-28 16:54:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Rune Scorpio
Grath Telkin wrote:
Rune Scorpio wrote:


Lots of solo guys roaming around looking for fights would be bland?


Lets be very clear here and drop the lies, you're not as a solo guy getting dropped on through a cyno.

You are as a small gang engaging a solo target you see as an easy kill and getting your teeth kicked in, in other words your gank is going the opposite way that you want.

Again, you can drop the wounded solo PVP'r act because nobody wastes the effort to go after a solo player unless you're in a multi billion isk ship, other wise its your small gang getting dropped through that cyno.




My epeen is bigger than your epeen?
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#89 - 2013-06-28 16:59:40 UTC
no cynos dont need a nerf they are allready sitting duck for 10 min. and add that anyone in space can warp to it to kill it. if you dont wanna be hotdropped maybe WH space is the place to be, if that is too scary for ya we have a cyno free system called high sec

enjoy and specialy for the topic starter fly safe Lol

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]