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L4 Battleships for Low-Med SP
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Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-06-08 19:44:54 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Ziaja wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
670 DPS is extraordinarily low for a battleship, my myrmidon can put out 600 DPS to 52km........

I think you'll find that battleships are better in the long run but it will require more time investment (though if you're flying a t3 it's about the same tbh).

A t2 fit mael should do about 900ish gun DPS and if we account for level 4 skills it's still 720ish pure gun dps before drones (80% of level 5).

You can also quite easily fit a MWD on a AC fit and a mael can even be usable with 1200mm artillery which puts out about 130 less dps than the AC fit but at much longer ranges.





All level V - 750dps. ACII, gyrostabilizers II.


4 gyros? faction ammo?



As cute as all this is.........

It doesn't do it with a L4 tank.

Once you got the L4 tank the dps falls off a cliff.


I don't understand, you only need 4 slots to tank a maelstrom for level 4s.

[Maelstrom, 800mmpve]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Explosive Deflection Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L

Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I

Art of Explosions
Ziaja
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2013-06-08 19:46:33 UTC
Offtopic, but it can be useful - Is it better to get shield boost amplifier over Invul field?
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-06-08 19:49:18 UTC
prefer the amp so you have more cap to boost/mwd

Art of Explosions
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#24 - 2013-06-08 20:04:47 UTC
Ziaja wrote:
Offtopic, but it can be useful - Is it better to get shield boost amplifier over Invul field?


The fit I posted is missing it due to the hull skill increasing boost amount by itself, but I'm obviously inexperienced with this.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
Stetson Eagle
Paird Technology
#25 - 2013-06-08 21:06:56 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
dominix is back with a launch-drones-and-afk vengeance.

transfer into incursions: not so much. But gals BS V will be nice for megathrons/vindis


Navy potato is excellent for incursion dps.
Dominix fleet is a very interesting average incursion setup with 2 spider RR squads, bypassing logistics ship requirement. Just needs a webber.

Vindicators are sweet.
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#26 - 2013-06-08 22:36:30 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
Ziaja wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
670 DPS is extraordinarily low for a battleship, my myrmidon can put out 600 DPS to 52km........

I think you'll find that battleships are better in the long run but it will require more time investment (though if you're flying a t3 it's about the same tbh).

A t2 fit mael should do about 900ish gun DPS and if we account for level 4 skills it's still 720ish pure gun dps before drones (80% of level 5).

You can also quite easily fit a MWD on a AC fit and a mael can even be usable with 1200mm artillery which puts out about 130 less dps than the AC fit but at much longer ranges.





All level V - 750dps. ACII, gyrostabilizers II.


4 gyros? faction ammo?



As cute as all this is.........

It doesn't do it with a L4 tank.

Once you got the L4 tank the dps falls off a cliff.


I don't understand, you only need 4 slots to tank a maelstrom for level 4s.

[Maelstrom, 800mmpve]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer
Tracking Enhancer II

Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster
Explosive Deflection Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L
800mm Repeating Artillery II, EMP L

Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I



My question on this, though: are ACs advisable for L4s if they're only Meta 4s? That obviously frees up a ton of fitting for something like a MWD, but how well will you be able to stay in range, and is it going to adversely affect your tank with it on?

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
I Accidentally YourShip
Ronin ONE
Ronin Reloaded
#27 - 2013-06-09 01:44:51 UTC  |  Edited by: I Accidentally YourShip
Sanadras Riahn wrote:


My question on this, though: are ACs advisable for L4s if they're only Meta 4s? That obviously frees up a ton of fitting for something like a MWD, but how well will you be able to stay in range, and is it going to adversely affect your tank with it on?


Autocannons were borderline on a Maelstrom due to its slow speed even with barrage available. 1400 arties are better in practice even if you need to use an ACR to fit them and a prop mod which you will want. With the TE nerf autocannons on a Maelstrom are even worse and I'd say artillery is the clear winner. The things that keeps arties competitive is faction ammo. Chewing through faction ammo with autocannons hurts (still worth it though, arguably) but using faction ammo on artillery with its slow cycle time is very cost effective. You can even use an MJD to make a kiting setup with artillery but I wouldn't recommend that for anything with a gate, use an AB or MWD instead.

What I did was I used a Maelstrom with M4 artillery until I could fly my Machariel with T2 autocannons, then I swapped to autos though I've been tempted to mess with an artillery Machariel and an MJD, just to change things up.

Edit: M4 800s vs 1400s Both using faction ammo the arties start outperforming at 24.5km, using regular ammo on the autocannons brings this down to 20. Tracking speed used on arties, optimal range used on 800s, most optimal for each of them in terms of projection in their intersecting range.

Use artillery, learn to ungroup your guns so you don't overshoot on small targets, 1 gun per frig etc. The other fun thing is that even though arty tracking is significantly worse you can simply match your target's transversal by using camera to look at them, point it in the direction of their ship and double click the space in front of them. You are now running parallel and minimizing transversal, your artillery should hit any battlecruiser or bigger even at **** touching range if you made the mistake of letting them get that close in the first place.
Jimbo Mann
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-06-09 09:04:01 UTC
I Accidentally YourShip wrote:
Sanadras Riahn wrote:


My question on this, though: are ACs advisable for L4s if they're only Meta 4s? That obviously frees up a ton of fitting for something like a MWD, but how well will you be able to stay in range, and is it going to adversely affect your tank with it on?


Autocannons were borderline on a Maelstrom due to its slow speed even with barrage available. 1400 arties are better in practice even if you need to use an ACR to fit them and a prop mod which you will want. With the TE nerf autocannons on a Maelstrom are even worse and I'd say artillery is the clear winner. The things that keeps arties competitive is faction ammo. Chewing through faction ammo with autocannons hurts (still worth it though, arguably) but using faction ammo on artillery with its slow cycle time is very cost effective. You can even use an MJD to make a kiting setup with artillery but I wouldn't recommend that for anything with a gate, use an AB or MWD instead.

What I did was I used a Maelstrom with M4 artillery until I could fly my Machariel with T2 autocannons, then I swapped to autos though I've been tempted to mess with an artillery Machariel and an MJD, just to change things up.

Edit: M4 800s vs 1400s Both using faction ammo the arties start outperforming at 24.5km, using regular ammo on the autocannons brings this down to 20. Tracking speed used on arties, optimal range used on 800s, most optimal for each of them in terms of projection in their intersecting range.

Use artillery, learn to ungroup your guns so you don't overshoot on small targets, 1 gun per frig etc. The other fun thing is that even though arty tracking is significantly worse you can simply match your target's transversal by using camera to look at them, point it in the direction of their ship and double click the space in front of them. You are now running parallel and minimizing transversal, your artillery should hit any battlecruiser or bigger even at **** touching range if you made the mistake of letting them get that close in the first place.


This has been my experience as well. You will need to have some skills in Advanced Weapon Upgrades to fit the 1400s comfortably, but that is not difficult. You won't have terribly high DPS, but remember Arties don't get much DPS. They get massive alpha damage. Just have at least 2 groups of weapons and the reload won't be as big of a problem.

As for anyone nay saying using a battleship at low SP, don't listen to them. If you can fit all Tech II Low/Medium slots and have at least 4 in all relevant gunnery skills / Minny BS (doable with about 5 mil SP), you will be absolutely fine in a maelstrom, and it is a beast in both Caldari and Minmatar space. I still have my first Maelstrom, which I flew even before I could fit all Tech II tank items.
Tsukino Stareine
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-06-09 09:28:14 UTC
Mael works great with artillery too, just 1200mms feel better and you don't lose that much

Art of Explosions
Rain6635
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#30 - 2013-06-10 08:29:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6635
logi alts. do whatever you want. I run level 4s in an open combat torp bomber.

I've been meaning to try a neutron blaster naga with logi support.

also nado.

I sometimes forego logi altogether and use cap stable 1MN AB, small shield boosting blaster harpys regardless of the mission (and damagetype) just take out the webs first.

worms would be even better, with a flight of T2 mediums.

you don't need to go big for a dps platform; they're slow to move and track.

Gila would be cool too.

no these aren't battleships but just in case you're open to ideas.

Rainf1337 on Twitch
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#31 - 2013-06-10 09:02:05 UTC
Rain6635 wrote:
lI've been meaning to try a neutron blaster naga with logi support.


Talos will put out a bit more damage thanks to the tracking bonus, plus a flight of Drones. Plus, it looks like a damn sports cruiser.

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
Rain6635
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2013-06-10 09:07:34 UTC
but I don't have gallente battlecruis... oh! yes I do :-D

Rainf1337 on Twitch
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-06-10 10:39:05 UTC
One thing to bear in mind about the Maelstrom is that before Odyssey, you couldn't fly it until you had Minmatar Battleship III, so the critical tank and gank bonuses were at a good level by the time you could step into the ship. Now, people can step into it at Minmatar Battleship I, and it'll probably feel underwhelming to them. Getting Battleship III is about one day's extra training, and worth it.

That said, a nice thing about the Maelstrom is that it'll grow with you, to a degree. 1200mm artillery serves well until you have the skills to fit the 1400's, and meta autocannons are acceptable until you can use T2's. You can over-tank as you learn, and then swap out tank modules for gank as you get more confident. It's practically as adaptable as the Raven against practically any opponent, and it's good in PVP as well as PVE (a dual-XLASB Maelstrom can be an absolute nightmare to deal with; just hope to all that's holy you can survive until he runs out of cap booster charges)...

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Sanadras Riahn
Turbo Nuclear Pirate Punch
#34 - 2013-06-10 12:39:44 UTC
All right, my question on this for you, Marc, is something you brought up.

You mention that the Maelstrom can grow with you, and as you improve you can drop some tank for more gank. Being inexperienced in shield tanking (though I've got enough to fit a T2 tank on a Maelstrom), I'm not certain how to increase the gank on a Maelstrom by dropping tank.

On a Raven it makes sense; you can sacrifice a hardener or two to put in a Target painter, which increases your ability to apply damage, thus upping your DPS. On any armor tank, it makes sense as well; dropping a hardener for a Magstab/equivalent. How does one accomplish the same for the Maelstrom?

Tradition defines and shapes a person, but should be evaluated frequently; far too often does Tradition no longer help, but hobble a person and stunt their growth. Especially a Capsuleer.
Redora
C.A.R.E.
B.E.A.R.S.
#35 - 2013-06-10 13:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Redora
Sanadras Riahn wrote:
All right, my question on this for you, Marc, is something you brought up.

You mention that the Maelstrom can grow with you, and as you improve you can drop some tank for more gank. Being inexperienced in shield tanking (though I've got enough to fit a T2 tank on a Maelstrom), I'm not certain how to increase the gank on a Maelstrom by dropping tank.

On a Raven it makes sense; you can sacrifice a hardener or two to put in a Target painter, which increases your ability to apply damage, thus upping your DPS. On any armor tank, it makes sense as well; dropping a hardener for a Magstab/equivalent. How does one accomplish the same for the Maelstrom?


Having flown a 1400 Mael in missions: Tracking Computers. I've since upgraded to a Vargur, but if you start dropping the 'little extra' tank mods for TCs, you can script in the extra tracking for frigs, and the optimal script to really reach out and torch someone.

My ending fit before I went Varg went something like this:

[Maelstrom, Mission Arty]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Co-Processor II
Power Diagnostic System II

X-Large Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
100MN Afterburner II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Obviously harden to taste.
Termy Rockling
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-06-10 14:28:39 UTC
Nothin wrong in flyin BSes when you get t2 tank and decent drone/cap/gunnery skills, no need to wait months. Just use common sense.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2013-06-10 15:23:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
I can't tell if you're suggesting faction fitting it or not.

Redora wrote:
[quote=Sanadras Riahn]
[Maelstrom, Mission Arty]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Co-Processor II
Power Diagnostic System II

X-Large Shield Booster II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
100MN Afterburner II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I


Hammerhead II x5
Hobgoblin II x5

Obviously harden to taste.


I'm curious if you could've dropped some IIs for Is and replaced the Cproc with a damage control or ... another gyro LolLol

j/k about 4x gyros but I did this up real quick. if you know what the mission is, use passive resists and stack them 2 and 1. also use a size lower booster now that you've stacked your resists better, and with the AB off, the LSB can run flat out for 26 minutes.

rain style also got rid of that cproc

[Maelstrom, 6639 1]
Power Diagnostic System II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Booster II
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
100MN Afterburner II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Kinetic Deflection Amplifier II
Explosive Deflection Amplifier II

1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L
1400mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard I

also: I still use this because I'm lazy. http://i.imgur.com/d8vNN8g.jpg

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Dyphorus
Inritus Astrum
#38 - 2013-06-10 23:01:06 UTC
Any cruise/long range turret fit BS with a MJD to make space is viable as long as you can manage the DPS to kill the rats. Efficiency will vary GREATLY. The key is the MJD and knowing triggers. With that you can run most missions without issue. I would say pick the race you want to fucus on, then pick the BS most friendly to your SP level and PvE in general, then fly that until you skills catch up.
Rain6638
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#39 - 2013-06-11 04:24:34 UTC
360dps Level 4 blaster harpy? c'mon, who's got a pair. LolLolLol

[Harpy, blaster harpy]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Internal Force Field Array I

'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
Upgraded EM Ward Amplifier I
1MN Afterburner I
M51 Iterative Shield Regenerator

Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Light Neutron Blaster II, Void S
Small EMP Smartbomb II

Small Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator I

[ 2013.06.21 09:52:05 ] (notify) For initiating combat your security status has been adjusted by -0.1337
Xeris 7
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-06-11 04:58:23 UTC
I have ran a lot of L4s and I have found that while you may have a lot of Alpha or DPS if you don't match your damage to the rats weak resists it will take much longer to complete L4s. I run mish in Caldari space and while I love Mega pulses I found the Apoc to be much slower running mish in general than my Domi with sentrys. The Domi is more flexable, tanks better and allows me to apply precise damage type with high DPS out to 90km. Aggro concerns are mitigated by learning to properly cycle your drones.

I'm just saying flexibility and damage type choice is more viable for mish grind than maximizing your damage output so don't over obsess over it. While DPS can be an excellent tank, a traditional armor tank with rat spec hardeners is a more flexible and safer option for a low SP player. Not to mention drone skills will be useful your entire gaming career as will the tank skills.