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Station trading games.
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goatplasma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#61 - 2013-06-27 12:07:53 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
arabella blood wrote:
See, its stupid, i was referring to a different post What?

Now that i know what we talk about, i have to tely shortly;
I was talking about the 0.01 process of mantaining 1 buy order at the top of the list, fullfiling it, then resseling at 0.01 isk lower then lowest sell order.
Thats not high turnover? Thats not ".01 isk war"??


Not if it takes you a long time to fill the order and then sell it. If it takes six months, that would be a low turnover.

Determining low and high turnover is entirely relative to the market. If you sell something in 6 months in a market where the turn over is once every 12 months, then that is a high turnover for that market. Likewise if you sell 1000 zydrine in an hour, that is an extremely low turnover for that one particular market. 0.01 trading will get you the highest turnover for your market, but will unlikely give you high margins for that market.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-06-27 12:16:31 UTC
goatplasma wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:
arabella blood wrote:
See, its stupid, i was referring to a different post What?

Now that i know what we talk about, i have to tely shortly;
I was talking about the 0.01 process of mantaining 1 buy order at the top of the list, fullfiling it, then resseling at 0.01 isk lower then lowest sell order.
Thats not high turnover? Thats not ".01 isk war"??


Not if it takes you a long time to fill the order and then sell it. If it takes six months, that would be a low turnover.

Determining low and high turnover is entirely relative to the market. If you sell something in 6 months in a market where the turn over is once every 12 months, then that is a high turnover for that market. Likewise if you sell 1000 zydrine in an hour, that is an extremely low turnover for that one particular market. 0.01 trading will get you the highest turnover for your market, but will unlikely give you high margins for that market.


I'm sure you know what I meant when I threw the six month figure in there. Your ISK is sitting there for a long time relative to the rest of the market. .01 trading does not get you the highest turnover for your market, it gets you the lowest turnover, since you're practically inviting someone to outbid you. Updating them as quickly as possible after someone that outbids you is what gets you high turnover if you .01 ISK trade.
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#63 - 2013-06-27 12:20:19 UTC
So you split it, you say that there is:
1. .01 isk war on an item that has low turnover- eg 6 months.
2. .01 isk war on an item that has high turnover - maybe seconds, eg PLEX.

I tell you, that when i say "zerg" or ".01 isk war" i am, and most, players, refer to a high turnover items.
Hard for me to even imagin an item with 6 months turn over that has isk war on it, the demand increases and so the supply follows.
So when he said highturnover, i replied with "zerg on" :)

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

goatplasma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-06-27 12:24:49 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:

I'm sure you know what I meant when I threw the six month figure in there. Your ISK is sitting there for a long time relative to the rest of the market. .01 trading does not get you the highest turnover for your market, it gets you the lowest turnover, since you're practically inviting someone to outbid you. Updating them as quickly as possible after someone that outbids you is what gets you high turnover if you .01 ISK trade.

No, I don't understand what you mean because saying that something is low turnover if it takes six months to sell is completely meaningless without a market context. Let me reiterate this, if your strategy allows you to sell more units per hour/week/month/whatever than the average trader in that market, then you are getting a high turnover. The only way to ensure you get the highest possible turnover is to constantly change your price so that it is, at least for a good portion of the time, the best price on the market. This yields the highest possible volume in trade, but the margins are typically very thin in comparison to a true high margin strategy which does not rely on giving customers the best value, but affords them some other convenience.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-06-27 12:35:46 UTC
goatplasma wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:

I'm sure you know what I meant when I threw the six month figure in there. Your ISK is sitting there for a long time relative to the rest of the market. .01 trading does not get you the highest turnover for your market, it gets you the lowest turnover, since you're practically inviting someone to outbid you. Updating them as quickly as possible after someone that outbids you is what gets you high turnover if you .01 ISK trade.

No, I don't understand what you mean because saying that something is low turnover if it takes six months to sell is completely meaningless without a market context. Let me reiterate this, if your strategy allows you to sell more units per hour/week/month/whatever than the average trader in that market, then you are getting a high turnover. The only way to ensure you get the highest possible turnover is to constantly change your price so that it is, at least for a good portion of the time, the best price on the market. This yields the highest possible volume in trade, but the margins are typically very thin in comparison to a true high margin strategy which does not rely on giving customers the best value, but affords them some other convenience.


OK, that's enough economics. As long as you maintain this point-of-view, you will not understand the value of his statement "I think anyone that has worked in sales and distribution will tell you that high turnover is easier and more valuable than high margin."
goatplasma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-06-27 12:37:19 UTC
arabella blood wrote:
So you split it, you say that there is:
1. .01 isk war on an item that has low turnover- eg 6 months.
2. .01 isk war on an item that has high turnover - maybe seconds, eg PLEX.

I tell you, that when i say "zerg" or ".01 isk war" i am, and most, players, refer to a high turnover items.
Hard for me to even imagin an item with 6 months turn over that has isk war on it, the demand increases and so the supply follows.
So when he said highturnover, i replied with "zerg on" :)

True Sansha Armor Reps in Jita seem to have idiots updating their buy orders every few minutes, despite those things only selling a few times a day for 10mill profit.
goatplasma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-06-27 12:40:47 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:

OK, that's enough economics. As long as you maintain this point-of-view, you will not understand the value of his statement "I think anyone that has worked in sales and distribution will tell you that high turnover is easier and more valuable than high margin."

There is no value to that statement because what is 'easier' for someone may not be easier for another person. Arbitrage trading for example is easy for some, but some people find that extremely boring. More to the point, if you have found a business that makes you good money and is easy for you, then you should continue to do that. That's what you're in this for, right? I think I'll ignore the bad subjective opinions on what is easy and not easy, and continue making actual money.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-06-27 12:44:45 UTC
goatplasma wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:

OK, that's enough economics. As long as you maintain this point-of-view, you will not understand the value of his statement "I think anyone that has worked in sales and distribution will tell you that high turnover is easier and more valuable than high margin."

There is no value to that statement because what is 'easier' for someone may not be easier for another person. Arbitrage trading for example is easy for some, but some people find that extremely boring. More to the point, if you have found a business that makes you good money and is easy for you, then you should continue to do that. That's what you're in this for, right? I think I'll ignore the bad subjective opinions on what is easy and not easy, and continue making actual money.


if you don't like the statement as it is, then you can replace 'easier' with 'requires less effort'. Hope that helps.
goatplasma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-06-27 12:45:55 UTC
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:

if you don't like the statement as it is, then you can replace 'easier' with 'requires less effort'. Hope that helps.

How does this change the statement? What is less effort for some is a lot of effort for others. Hope This Helps.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#70 - 2013-06-27 12:48:34 UTC
goatplasma wrote:
Smohq Anmirorz wrote:

if you don't like the statement as it is, then you can replace 'easier' with 'requires less effort'. Hope that helps.

How does this change the statement? What is less effort for some is a lot of effort for others. Hope This Helps.


I'm sorry it didn't help you. That's ok, you seem to like what you're doing.
goatplasma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-06-27 12:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: goatplasma
My advice is to not neglect an important part of your currently profitable business because of some silly smug forums attitude about what is too much effort and what isn't. How much effort you are willing to spend is not between you and the forums, it's between you and you.
Smohq Anmirorz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-06-27 12:53:00 UTC
goatplasma wrote:
My advice is to not neglect an important part of your currently profitable business because of some silly smug attitude about what is effort and what isn't. Effort is not between you and the forums, it's between you and you.


Again, I'm sorry you didn't find my advice helpful. I'm not forcing it on you. If you find that to be smug, you mistake my intentions.
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#73 - 2013-06-27 13:21:30 UTC
From the perspective of a manufacturer which is where I'm coming from, trading isn't my game, building stuff is. But I have to trade in order to sell the stuff I build. I can choose two routes: sell to buy orders and let someone else have the profit maximising trading strategy, or 0.01isk my orders. When I do the latter that's time I'm not earning doing something else, so I'd rather not bother.

What I've been doing is keep my orders near the top for a few days (0.01isk) and if they don't sell on the open market because of the .isk competition, I'll dump them to buy orders, assuming the buy order still gives me a profit. I don't want to have stock hanging around you see, because for me that's a risk and I'm a relatively small player in the grand scheme of things, so I can't control the market like a big trader can.
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#74 - 2013-06-27 14:02:11 UTC
goatplasma wrote:
arabella blood wrote:
So you split it, you say that there is:
1. .01 isk war on an item that has low turnover- eg 6 months.
2. .01 isk war on an item that has high turnover - maybe seconds, eg PLEX.

I tell you, that when i say "zerg" or ".01 isk war" i am, and most, players, refer to a high turnover items.
Hard for me to even imagin an item with 6 months turn over that has isk war on it, the demand increases and so the supply follows.
So when he said highturnover, i replied with "zerg on" :)

True Sansha Armor Reps in Jita seem to have idiots updating their buy orders every few minutes, despite those things only selling a few times a day for 10mill profit.


Are you telling me few times a day isnt high turnover, in jita, compared to the other 8500 items?

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#75 - 2013-06-27 14:12:36 UTC
Ffs, its almost HFT, its based on high turnover profits, the hell we argue here about?

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

goatplasma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-06-27 14:15:21 UTC  |  Edited by: goatplasma
arabella blood wrote:

Are you telling me few times a day isnt high turnover, in jita, compared to the other 8500 items?

I'm saying for the volume at which that item sells, and the low profit margin for that volume, that item seems to have a particularly high amount of competition for reasons which I cannot figure out.
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#77 - 2013-06-27 14:28:30 UTC
goatplasma wrote:
arabella blood wrote:

Are you telling me few times a day isnt high turnover, in jita, compared to the other 8500 items?

I'm saying for the volume at which that item sells, and the low profit margin for that volume, that item seems to have a particularly high amount of competition for reasons which I cannot figure out.


Ill try explaining because im one of the idiots buying this item. (OMG he reveals his items! Big smile)
I find it high turnover enough for my taste, and low risk as well.

If i manage to buy me several of those a day i net 10mil you say? Multiply it by the amount of max buy orders i keep - around 150. I will net roughly more then a bil..for such a low risk and decent profit i agree to update my orders a"lot".
Looks like other players/bots found out about as well :)

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

goatplasma
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#78 - 2013-06-27 14:54:00 UTC  |  Edited by: goatplasma
arabella blood wrote:

Ill try explaining because im one of the idiots buying this item. (OMG he reveals his items! Big smile)
I find it high turnover enough for my taste, and low risk as well.

If i manage to buy me several of those a day i net 10mil you say? Multiply it by the amount of max buy orders i keep - around 150. I will net roughly more then a bil..for such a low risk and decent profit i agree to update my orders a"lot".
Looks like other players/bots found out about as well :)


There's only so much volume of an item in a market per day, multiplying the amount of buy orders you have won't necessarily multiply the profit. I guess it's just that 10mill/day on a single item seems very low, even for a newbie trader. Whether you want to trade in that item is up to you though, I just don't do it because I don't think it's worth the time when there are thousands of other more fast flowing and higher margins on the market with less competition IMO.
arabella blood
Keyboard Jihad
#79 - 2013-06-27 15:20:43 UTC
goatplasma wrote:
arabella blood wrote:

Ill try explaining because im one of the idiots buying this item. (OMG he reveals his items! Big smile)
I find it high turnover enough for my taste, and low risk as well.

If i manage to buy me several of those a day i net 10mil you say? Multiply it by the amount of max buy orders i keep - around 150. I will net roughly more then a bil..for such a low risk and decent profit i agree to update my orders a"lot".
Looks like other players/bots found out about as well :)


There's only so much volume of an item in a market per day, multiplying the amount of buy orders you have won't necessarily multiply the profit. I guess it's just that 10mill/day on a single item seems very low, even for a newbie trader. Whether you want to trade in that item is up to you though, I just don't do it because I don't think it's worth the time when there are thousands of other more fast flowing and higher margins on the market with less competition IMO.


but we were doing pretend mathematics, when all my items net 10mil Big smileBig smileBig smile

lets explain this from a different angle.

1. Market bots exist? yes.
2. people use them? probably.
2. are they good? it seems.
3. do they bring profit? i guess.
4. should i use them? no.
5. why? ill get a ban.
6. can i do something similar? do it manually...
7. ill get the same amount of isk as a bot? maybe.
8. but its boring? but its profitable...

and so doing HFT manually in eve brings profit.

10mil from an item is good.
few times a day even better.
low risk - splendid.
many items like that - PROFIT.

Troll for hire. Cheap prices.

Guywood Threepbrush
Motsu Mission Monkeys
#80 - 2013-06-27 19:59:24 UTC
I'm with the OP. These things are usually done via drinking and/or prostitutes IRL, though.

So we're going to need usb devices that you insert into your veins. You'll be liquored up until you pass out. Player that hasn't hit the dec can amend his/her orders, other player .. well, can't.

Still working on a concept for USB prostitution.