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Ninja Mining by Rorqual
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#21 - 2013-06-07 15:44:42 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
Gizznitt wrote:
If a hostile comes into system, they fleet returns to the POS for safety. If it's a problem, they deposit their ships into the rorqual, get back into their covops, and everyone simply leaves system. The Rorqual cyno's out from inside the POS once it's out of siege, and worse case worse they leave behind a small tower.

Really, look at your suggestion:
You want to bridge in Macks using BO portal. The Fuel use is based on the ship mass, and a Mack has 3-4x the mass of a Recon. At Max range, your looking at a 6m isk bill in isotopes EACH WAY.

A mach holds 35k m3: Fill it with the blingiest ore (Mercoxit), and you'll gross 15m isk in a trip, less 10m for the bridge fuel, and you get a measely 5m isk profit to share with the BO pilot, the cyno pilot, and yourself. And this will take a boatload more effort than spending 15minutes in a belt and shooting nullsec rats for twice the profit!

The major flaw with your idea that it doesnt make sense, profit wise, to bridge in exhumers via BO Portal, because you can't harvest enough ore in a single trip for it to be worth your while.

The Rorqual, with a big ore bay, cyno travel, and ore compression makes it already setup to do your "ninja mining" task.



30 minutes to anchor/unanchor a pos is a wasted (unboosted) 30 minutes in the field. when you are talking null sec ninja ops, there goes 1/2 of your time. 1 hour in/out. the rorqual bridges the ships in (if u look at my first post, i suggest a reduced price since they are limited to mining only). all mine in belt. rorqual mines in belt. if u have 2 or more rorquals, you can stage them in formation 50k apart, triangle shaped of whatever and drop sentries. if anyone comes in, they are within range of your sentries and all the rorquals are within rep range of each other.

now, 1 hour in a belt with exhumers will shred any abcm ores there. the rorqual can hold it in its belly. 250k m3 ore.
remember, this is a NINJA operation. seeing 1 lone recon (for shorter timer) flying by raises SOME suspicions, but 15 flying by and folks wanna chase em.
the cyno ship gets in position and logs for 10 mins. then comes back in, checks to make sure no one is in system then bridges (this was anyone trying to follow the recon, they would loose him and go back).

cyno up, everyone in, mine mine mine. rorqual pulls into cargo. if there are a few rorquals that jump in, then u have protection. if all exhumers bring 2 sentries, then there potentially could be 20 unbonused sentries and 15 (2x) from the rorquals.

thats alot of death on small ships until the rorqual comes out of siege.
at that point, drones in, all exhumers to the rorqual for bridge home.

cyno up, bridge, all 3 rorquals home. only there for an hour or so (until discovered or until ore hold on the rorqual was full.)

im not trying to change the game dramatically, but if we only put the bridge on the rorqual, all this would be possible.
if you guys wanna put some kind of additional shield on it, thats a different story. either way, i take my rorqual into the field now.
to be fair, i was using it to rat.. =) (battle rorqual ftw) i had a rorqual and a thanny in the sanctums..=)

the pos idea is for the birds. too many people flying through space alerting too many enemies to our presence. hell, we could even leave a cyno alt in the enemies territory and only log it on when we wanna ninja. they never see us come or go.


I don't see people sieging the Rorqual in a belt... and would be shocked if you do it in "hostile territory"!!!

In the end, it sounds like there are two trains of thought:
Make the Exhumers BO Bridge-able
--- No major OP from this, but it does makes them compete with blockade runners for transporting stuff, and that needs to be addressed.
--- Make them "cheaper" to bridge... which I don't mine either way.

Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#22 - 2013-06-07 17:07:40 UTC
another train of thought that would bring this back to a rorqual thing and not a black ops thing is to allow rorquals to boost while NOT in siege. for ore mulching and whatnot, yer it needs siege mode, but for just running links? i dont think so.

that way, the rorqual can bridge, boost, transport and defend against rats. once mining is complete (or enemies are approaching), the rorqual can bridge everyone home and then jump.

but having to siege to boost is crazy. no other ship has to do that. maybe drop the bonus a lil to match other ships...but sieging for boost? it only provied 5% more boost than an orca which do NOT need to siege. drop the 5%, drop the requirement to siege and give us a bridge ability and stand back...
that quick change and allowing them to bridge would turn null sec mining around.

and yes, i will siege my rorqual in enemy space if we have a scout a system or 2 out, or a bubble on the gate.
if we had more of an ability to escape, i believe this ship would be used a WHOLE lot more.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#23 - 2013-06-07 18:01:31 UTC
Good points all around.

How about the Rorqual with this package?

I would suggest the following, not considering whether it has a shield or not at this point:
Drop the SMB from 1 million to 400K, and remove the industrial only limit on stored vessels.
Give the ability to bridge for the industrial only class vessels, the same ones that used to be stored in the SMB.
Drop the fuel needs for this bridging ability to scale based on the packaged size of the ships involved.

For instance, A hurricane has a volume of 216,000 but packaged is 15,000 in m3. Keep the same numbers so a ship with 15k m3 packaged would be the same as the current cost for unpackaged 216k in m3.

Reason?
A Hulk is 200k in m3 unpackaged, but only 3,750 m3 when packaged. These ships were designed to travel well when helped by others.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#24 - 2013-06-07 18:25:50 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Good points all around.

How about the Rorqual with this package?

I would suggest the following, not considering whether it has a shield or not at this point:
Drop the SMB from 1 million to 400K, and remove the industrial only limit on stored vessels.
Give the ability to bridge for the industrial only class vessels, the same ones that used to be stored in the SMB.
Drop the fuel needs for this bridging ability to scale based on the packaged size of the ships involved.

For instance, A hurricane has a volume of 216,000 but packaged is 15,000 in m3. Keep the same numbers so a ship with 15k m3 packaged would be the same as the current cost for unpackaged 216k in m3.

Reason?
A Hulk is 200k in m3 unpackaged, but only 3,750 m3 when packaged. These ships were designed to travel well when helped by others.


I just looked up more info on the Rorqual (which I admittedly don't utilize for mining).

It has a ton of issues:
Very limited on what can go in the SMB!
Very vulnerable when in siege (What happens when a Rorqual is in Siege next to a tower, and the shields go up?
It can only give mining link bonuses when in Siege!

I think this it simply needs a full rebalanced!
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#25 - 2013-06-07 18:27:20 UTC
Arrrrgh!

Sorry, but I am just being objective, or at least trying to here.

Nikk is doing that forward projecting PvE in a manner like a PvP attack on resources. For sneaky relocating of assets the Black Ops is specific designed for.
Not so much mining, but it won't be boosting or compressing either, so they sacrifice a few luxuries in trade.

Mole is suggesting new use for the Rorqual.
The Rorqual IS designed for mining, but not in any manner to have meaningful defenses. It is neither defensive nor fast to respond, making it an awful choice for anything described "ninja". Ninja implies fast sneaky and dangerous, the Rorqual is none of these.

Think along the lines of the Rorqual's design, and point out where it falls short to see what it needs.
Big SMB
Clone Vat Bay
Good Bonus to boosting when deployed
Ability to compress when deployed

With the obvious inability to avoid or defend against more than a small group of ships, this vessel is indicating by design it needs to be well hidden or well defended if use in null is desired.
It can do neither of these well enough currently.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#26 - 2013-06-07 20:07:15 UTC
u gots it down chicky-mama...

all the points in a nutshell.

i like what yer saying nikk. those changes would rawk for the rorqual.
we need an SMB for refitting and SOME storage.
we need bridging to get the fleet there.
we need boosting like normal ships.





ooo0000000oooo
idea:
what about this...when we siege, the rorqual can generate the shields you were describing. that way, it can grind rock at the drill site, drop sentries to protect the miners AND have some protection itself.
if we dont want to be in "formal deployed mode", we can not deploy, still give orca bonuses and hold tons of ore for that ninja setting. if we are home in the belts, we can deploy and grind rock right there on site. unlike pos shields, we can actually target through the shields for drop cans or rats etc.
deploy mode would fortify the shields as you indicated in your post.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#27 - 2013-06-07 20:22:20 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
u gots it down chicky-mama...

all the points in a nutshell.

i like what yer saying nikk. those changes would rawk for the rorqual.
we need an SMB for refitting and SOME storage.
we need bridging to get the fleet there.
we need boosting like normal ships.





ooo0000000oooo
idea:
what about this...when we siege, the rorqual can generate the shields you were describing. that way, it can grind rock at the drill site, drop sentries to protect the miners AND have some protection itself.
if we dont want to be in "formal deployed mode", we can not deploy, still give orca bonuses and hold tons of ore for that ninja setting. if we are home in the belts, we can deploy and grind rock right there on site. unlike pos shields, we can actually target through the shields for drop cans or rats etc.
deploy mode would fortify the shields as you indicated in your post.


What to buy POS force fields around orca:

to be deployed in a fashion that denies Station and Stargate access!!
to be used to bump ships off stations and/or away from POS's.
to be used to safely cyno in a fleet.
to be used to cast a safety net around my fleet, so they can attack from an unassailable position!
to be used to attack things with drones while they can't harm me.
to be used to break the game and cause general havoc!
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#28 - 2013-06-07 21:01:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mole Guy
lets get 1 thing strait...
im not a fan of the shields. i think with just a few tweaks i described, the rorqual can be used to horrific efficiency in ninja pvp mining ops. as i said, if you had a few cyno alts you could leave in null sec areas, you could log them in, jump to em, log em out, and ninja mine the area. a small group could walk through null sec hitting only the good ores once or twice a week and score.

all i am looking to do is allow bridging on rorquals and drop the "boost in deploy only" mode.
if we could boost without deploying and bridge, you would see fleets of miners. more miners=more ships and whatnot built or more ice mined in null sec.

what i was refering too with the shield comment is enhanced shields (not like a pos to protect those inside it) but stronger when deployed. like x3 while deployed. that way the rorqual is protected and the sentries dropped by the rorqual can protect the miners.
not that the miners can go inside like pos shields.

i can see how i typed it might have mislead u.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#29 - 2013-06-08 01:06:41 UTC
I think Mole Guy has it.

My other thread made the Rorqual into something like a small portable POS. Mining ships taking refuge in it's shields could NOT target anything or mine, only the Rorq itself could target with the shields up.

The trade off for that was a hostile could lock it down very easily, wait till heavy ships showed up and reinforce it. After that, it is unlikely a corp relying on guerilla tactics could prevail in a straight up fight to rescue their Port-A-POS-E.

(I had to add the E, just say it out loud to get the joke)

I think everyone agrees the current Rorqual is too niche for practical use outside of very limited conditions.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
supernova ranger
The End of Eternity
#30 - 2013-06-08 14:27:31 UTC  |  Edited by: supernova ranger
I don't care how it is eventually done, I just hope to see the rorqual used outside of a POS

Sitting in a POS munching ore while removed from the rest of the fleet is not immersive game play and it needs to be made so that it is

There isn't even a POS module that makes you stay in the POS to use it, at least industry wise.
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#31 - 2013-06-10 15:02:40 UTC
i think we have a good thing going here, it needs more discussion..
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#32 - 2013-06-10 15:16:35 UTC
Boosting with bonus when not deployed? I would agree to this, being deployed under current terms makes the Rorqual a sitting duck, and not risk effective if exposed.

The question is, what do we want it to need to deploy for, and how risky should deploying it be?

It is not practical to give a ship a 5 minute delay before evac, unless that ship can reliably survive.
Noone wants an expensive pinata, and null is designed to draw combat PvP onto targets.

Only in high sec could this ship operate outside a POS as it is now, and it can never jump to these areas for obvious reasons.

Gameplay has demonstrated null players are unwilling to have an appropriate fleet stand guard over mining. It is too easy to use free intel and bypass this need, so PvP lovers can go hunt for more interesting action.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#33 - 2013-06-10 15:47:53 UTC
here's an idea about the boosting.

give it normal orca bonuses until deployed, then give it like a 10% bonus. nothing big, but if we had a pos to boost form, we could do that. if not, leave in field, use the tractors to suck up the ore and store it in that massive cargo hold.
enemies inbound? warp away. wait until u are safe to compress ore.

no need to siege for every little thing.

"i have to use the restroom..lemme siege this thing so the toilet will flush..."
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#34 - 2013-06-10 16:01:48 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
here's an idea about the boosting.

give it normal orca bonuses until deployed, then give it like a 10% bonus. nothing big, but if we had a pos to boost form, we could do that. if not, leave in field, use the tractors to suck up the ore and store it in that massive cargo hold.
enemies inbound? warp away. wait until u are safe to compress ore.

no need to siege for every little thing.

"i have to use the restroom..lemme siege this thing so the toilet will flush..."

Waiting until you are safe to compress ore defeats the point of being able to compress ore.

That being, the ship can hold more ore in the field environment for transport home.
No point in compressing at home, just unload it.

And no point getting safe to compress, just finish jumping home and unload.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#35 - 2013-06-10 16:09:27 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
here's an idea about the boosting.

give it normal orca bonuses until deployed, then give it like a 10% bonus. nothing big, but if we had a pos to boost form, we could do that. if not, leave in field, use the tractors to suck up the ore and store it in that massive cargo hold.
enemies inbound? warp away. wait until u are safe to compress ore.

no need to siege for every little thing.

"i have to use the restroom..lemme siege this thing so the toilet will flush..."

Waiting until you are safe to compress ore defeats the point of being able to compress ore.

That being, the ship can hold more ore in the field environment for transport home.
No point in compressing at home, just unload it.

And no point getting safe to compress, just finish jumping home and unload.



no point in being safe to compress is a matter of thinking. it depends on how "forward deployed" these rorquals can become. if the changes go through i am proposing, i willa ctually gather a group of miners and walk through everyones back yard and hit fields of nothing but ark and bist. we will jump from field to field with recon cyno's as to not draw attention and ninja mine the crap out of someone elses stuff. with ongrid boosting becoming the norm, i will setup a pos in hostile territory if need be for an hour and compress the ore, then jump to the next field and start nabbing someone elses ark.

this is serious ninja mining at its best...and thats how i roll.. =) (or would roll if the changes go through).
we would have to do it this way because everyone knows if you get your industry to 4-5, the cloaky campers come in.
so lemme make a cloaky mining ship..=)
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#36 - 2013-06-10 16:46:14 UTC
Mole Guy wrote:
i will setup a pos in hostile territory if need be for an hour and compress the ore, then jump to the next field and start nabbing someone elses ark.

this is serious ninja mining at its best...and thats how i roll.. =) (or would roll if the changes go through).
we would have to do it this way because everyone knows if you get your industry to 4-5, the cloaky campers come in.
so lemme make a cloaky mining ship..=)

I applaud the concept, but the smallest tower takes 15 minutes to anchor and bring online. Add the time to take it down again, and you lost half of the hour already.

That is one of the reasons I wanted the Rorqual to be able to be the tower, effectively. For rapid deployment and evac, it made sense for those situations.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#37 - 2013-06-10 17:43:40 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mole Guy wrote:
i will setup a pos in hostile territory if need be for an hour and compress the ore, then jump to the next field and start nabbing someone elses ark.

this is serious ninja mining at its best...and thats how i roll.. =) (or would roll if the changes go through).
we would have to do it this way because everyone knows if you get your industry to 4-5, the cloaky campers come in.
so lemme make a cloaky mining ship..=)

I applaud the concept, but the smallest tower takes 15 minutes to anchor and bring online. Add the time to take it down again, and you lost half of the hour already.

That is one of the reasons I wanted the Rorqual to be able to be the tower, effectively. For rapid deployment and evac, it made sense for those situations.


IMO, the acceptable method for the Rorqual to "be the tower" is to give it a very strong local tank when deployed, but keep it very limited in offensive capabilities.

The Rorqual, with 2x Capital ShieldBoosters (CSB), a DCU, 4x Hardeners, and an SBA can Rep ~11k DPS (for ~2 minutes). Add some bonuses to Industrial Mode that reduces it's cap need to run CSB's by 75%, and perhaps even double it's boost amount, and suddenly it can run permarun it's 2x CSB's for a 20k DPS tank. Yes, this is extreme, and obviously needs a major balance pass. The idea though, with only a 300m3 drone bay a group of frigates could easily strip it's offensive capabilities, and then it sits there and tanks until it can j-out, until DT, or until someone brings backup to gank it. And given it's inability to receive remote assitence while in siege, it will be susceptible to neuts (once appropriately balanced). To quickly kill it requires a sizable fleet, or attacking capitals. This would make it much safer to deploy, as the time to kill it would be sufficiently long enough for most groups to form up and "save it".
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#38 - 2013-06-10 18:50:18 UTC
if all yer getting is abc ore, you wouldnt put up the pos but once every 3 systems or so to compress.


imagine this in ts or across intel...
"neut rorqual and neut miners stripping our belts??? wtf?"

>=)

and if u have a spai alt, you all could warp to safe and cloak or just light cyno and jump out...=)
Mole Guy
Bob's Bait and Tackle
#39 - 2013-06-12 14:57:39 UTC
hey nikk, change the title of this topic to
ninja mining: roqual changes and you...
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