EVE General Discussion

Instead of 2500 ice every 4 hours, have 625 ice spawn every hour! Problem solved!

No, I am not serious.

and don't reset/respawn the ice fields at DT.

This new ice system sucks for solo miners! I have 4 kids racing around my house and can only play about 5 or 6 hours a week and found ice mining a nice change from all the RL activity. It still would be nice to do if I could find any ice to mine, which I can't with my limited playing time. Filling my Mack once or twice before logging off was a nice stress reliever, but that has been taken away. Mining in low/null sec? Please, get real! I don't have time to sit and wait for a new belt to re-spawn. I don't have time to do much else in Eve without being distracted and I don't know if I have time to re-sub my account. Time will tell.

As I thought, for the solo, casual players, this stupid ideea with ice mining, will drop subs.
I'm very sorry because I re-sub 2 days ago, not knowing of this change.So, I'm very pissed off

Mining is a high-skill endeavour similar to professional sports leagues? :puzzled:




Another straw man. This is about the game getting sick, not the cluster. If you seriously think that replacing the current number of accounts and players with that number/50 of ice miners with 50 accounts each is sustainable, then . If you don't, then you're admitting you're wrong above.

We really don't disagree on all that much (of what's been said so far), not sure why you're being so sour. If people don't want crowds, they should go to a less crowded place. that isn't elitism, that's just common sense. elitism, which I'm totally in favor of, btw, would be to remove ice from highsec entirely. If you disagree with that, fine, but why respond to disagreement with all the insults?



Oh, I'm definitely an elitist--but that's not relevant to the subject of whether ice mining is now more or less elitist. It is relevant to the matter of whether I think it *should* be more elitist, which I do--which probably renders the former point somewhat moot. Let's drop it.



did we have a date for that respawn or something?




Every subscription paid by PLEX is an exchange of more currency than one paid with credit card, yes. As to the question of which is "worth more", as somone who has been heavily involved in throwing festival/parties with tens of thousands of attendees, I can personally attest that when two people pay for the same ticket(same seats/access, not loge vs. nosebleed), the one who pays less is "worth more" than the one who pays more--that's why they're given a better price. Even when it's as simple as pre-orders paying less than door-sales, this holds true. In a few different ways, the people who pre-buy tickets are the product that is sold to the late buyers.

This is a universal truth, TANSTAAFL. If you pay for something , that is the product (buying a steak). If you don't pay, YOU are the product (Ladies entering nightclubs for free). If you're charged half-price, you're half paying for the product, and you're functioning as the product in a partial way as well (cheap magazine subscriptions compared to cover price, where subscribers are chiefly ad revenue but also pay a nominal sum charged to qualify them as a good advertising audience). Therefore, credit card subscribers are "worth more" than PLEX-buyers to CCP, which is the obvious economic motivation for them being given a cheaper monthly price.

The relevance here to the original topic is that people who make PLEX while afk, such as ice miners, aren't paying for the product, but they're not very good 'product' to sell to those people who do put IRL currency towards EVE. Thus, the recent changes to reduce afk-ism. It's all rather inevitable, once this basic truth is understood.

Omitting a specific description because it seems obvious isn't a straw man, it's just not realizing you needed everything spelled out to a T. Since you do, here you go:

Guide to mining ice in lowsec, low-yield zero-risk (nearly zero)

1 Find a very empty lowsec system.
2 mine ice
3 if someone shows up in local, dock up and wait for them to leave.

there are obviously much better schemes, but this works, and produces more ice than zero, which is sufficient to disprove your theory that some people are A Priori excluded from mining any ice whatsoever. Since I don't live in lowsec, the fact that I only know of one person who mines in lowsec isn't actually notable--I don't know more than a few people who do anything you could name in lowsec, not just icemining.




post #249, where I suggested that situation. I notice you haven't answered the question. Do you think that situation is sustainable, or not?

To make it mathematically clear: You've claimed that the potential negative effect of replacing 50 normal accounts with 1 ice miner with 50 accounts is zero. I point out that zero * any number = zero, therefore repeating the above process of replacement X times still results in zero negative effect. Therefore, via ironclad mathematical logic, you've claimed that the total negative effect in the above situation, which I proposed in post #249, is zero. This is clearly false, as a situation where 100% of EVE's pilots only play to afk ice-mine is unsustainable, and they would all quit playing as they'd have no one to sell to. You have thus been conclusively proven wrong, again.




What's a fallacity?

You are leaving out the most important part: experience. I do a fair amount of low-sec mining (in common asteroid belts as well as the new ore site anomalies) and I don't usually bother docking when people are in local, since the systems that I frequent almost always have people in local. For me there were a number of things that I needed to learn in order to pull this off:

1. Get to know the locals. Some people in low-sec are actually not out to kill you. They are docked cyno alts, or even missioners and could care less what you are doing. I have actually had some friendly contact with people. Some people merely pass through the system on a regular basis because they are transporting stuff, or whatever.
2. Learn how to use d-scan. Once you can use d-scan to determine what people are doing, you can stay mining even when you see ships appear on d-scan. It took me a long time to learn how to this, since, as a relatively casual (solo) player I did not spend a lot of time using it. Knowing which ships do what helps a lot as well... I still don't know all the ships, so I check what the ships do when I see them on d-scan.
3. As all lists need to have at least three items, I am going to add that you have to accept that you will lose your ship. This is why I only bring ships that I can afford to lose, but after about 6 months of doing this, I have found that I can easily make ships profitable before I lose them. But as I said, this takes experience. I lost the first hauler I brought into low-sec, and I lost the first hurricane within an hour or so... but recently, on several ships my insurance ran out and I had to reinsure them before I lost them... which was kind of disappointing. Some ships are about to run out of their second insurance. And I have not lost a single hauler since the first one.

I am not sure why people were doing high-sec ice mining as casual solo players, but I can only assume that they do this because they want to play the game. In order to play the game, every ship you undock needs to even out in terms of income vs cost. This is easily achievable in low-sec for a casual solo player, especially since the rebalance of ships. Tech 1 ships are incredibly useful for me now, something for which I <3 CCP.

If you want to make big profits while AFK-mining all day long as a 'casual' solo player, then yeah, you are out of luck if you cannot find a high-sec system with an ice belt and a low enough population for you to always have an ice belt available. Also, I am almost certain there are ice systems out there, in high sec, that do have ice constantly available. Get more than 10 jumps out from Jita, and perhaps you might find them.

And I lost a damn drone to rats while reading this thread. I am blaming you (the reader) for this one.

Goons do like this change so yea, grr goons.

I have lived for long time in low sec, less in null and WHs. I have mined and missioned L4s and had PvP and POS in there.
You believe to know enough to say your statements but you don't take in account "details" like i.e. the fact that mining > 0 is not enough. To be worth it, you must also earn enough to recover from the unavoidable losses and also mine more than in hi sec, else you would just stay in hi sec.

Also, you don't explain how you cope with the fact that low sec belts will get more traffic than before, by the very corps I described some posts ago, nor you explain the logistics of moving 17 seconds aligning ships across some systems (possibly near a FW bottleneck) when the belt expires (they last really little. Again, I DO it). And more and more. But you seem to be content reading a blog and use that as practical knowledge.




It's not ironclad mathematical logic at all, you are using a "tecnique" used millenia ago and still described by Schopenhauer... and it's just a rethoric reductio that has zero meaning.
It will NEVER happen that you replace the whole playerbase with miners because what you claim as effect, is a self-balancing factor that would slow down the substitution the more the conversion happens, because prices would crash, CCP would see it and make it impossible and so on.




Most of what you are writing in your last posts.

If you can't find ice in high-sec, then any ice mined in low-sec would be > 0. And after my initial losses, all of my ships have been profitable in low-sec.