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Awoxing & Dueling
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RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-06-07 12:44:41 UTC
blood spine wrote:

Liam Inkuras wrote:
No, because then proper awoxing would be impossible and EVE would die in a fire


I don't think the only thing keeping EVE alive is the ability to shoot corpmates without CONCORD intervention


No but it is a significant part and if the ability to Awox was removed isn't that just a sliding slope to make eve a carebears game?[/quote]

No. It wouldnt be taking away your ability to shoot carebears in high sec it makes it so there are consquences like ganking.

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-06-07 17:19:23 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Hypothetical situation:
Checked his history, nothing there cuz he's new.
No kills. Interview showed he's a total noob.
What he really were is an awoxer in disguise who pretended to be new - it's not even hard.
Now he enjoys an awoxing activity, which has even less risk than mining, while being more griefing than suicide ganking, and has 100% chance of success.
What could I have done to prevent this EASYMODE scenario for awoxer? Nothing.

Or you can only let in people who you know for sure that they aren't goon awoxers.


So your entire corp is getting murdered by a sub-1M SP character? Oh well, another corp scattered to the winds by incompetence.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#123 - 2013-06-07 17:21:50 UTC
but remember, it's never your fault! it's always that damn griefer's fault, you're not responsible for your mistakes at all

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#124 - 2013-06-07 17:36:09 UTC
Andski wrote:
So your entire corp is getting murdered by a sub-1M SP character? Oh well, another corp scattered to the winds by incompetence.

Finally you admit it's unavoidable and 100% success chance strategy.

Mining fleets currently are designed in a way that they are totally murderable by sub-1M SP character. That is not my fault at all.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#125 - 2013-06-07 17:40:01 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Andski wrote:
So your entire corp is getting murdered by a sub-1M SP character? Oh well, another corp scattered to the winds by incompetence.

Finally you admit it's unavoidable and 100% success chance strategy.

Mining fleets currently are designed in a way that they are totally murderable by sub-1M SP character. That is not my fault at all.


Suicide Gankers, Bumpers, AWOXers... why can't they all just leave me alone, so I can mine in peace?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-06-07 17:43:13 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
Finally you admit it's unavoidable and 100% success chance strategy.

Mining fleets currently are designed in a way that they are totally murderable by sub-1M SP character. That is not my fault at all.


it's almost like you could not be in mining ships once that guy starts shooting you up

it's almost as if you could get into other ships and kill him fairly easily

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2013-06-07 18:13:46 UTC
Alright. I don't normally post this info in public, but extremely mad OP has tricked me into revealing the secret to stopping me.

Let's pretend we're talking about one of those 'undetectable' sub-1M sp characters that you're so worried about (despite the fact that I had such a character detetected twice yesterday). Let's pretend you failed to notice him on the way in and failed to take the precautions to prevent him from shooting you. Let's pretend that you've done every possible thing wrong and he's landed in the middle of your mining op with a destroyer and is shooting your untanked Hulks and Orcas and Freighters and ****.

Have ECM drones out. Or pop them out once the shooting starts. Or have one of your miners store his Hulk in the Orca and board a Blackbird.

Even if he has ECCM on his support logi, if you're at the keyboard and lay the drones on him quickly he won't have a chance to pop much more than a coveter before he's jammed, at which point he drops tackle and everybody just leaves. Any barge that is going to be killed can right-click the Orca and store ship and leave in a pod.

Hell, even if the entire mining op was AFK and you come back to the keyboard to find your Orca half way through shields, you can still pop ECM drones. It takes between 2-7 minutes for a lowbie safari alt to murder an Orca, depending on how it's tanked. In that time, your ECM drones only need to get off one single jam and you've successfully escaped. And if you don't have that, assuming you've done any amount of prep beforehand a corpmate can even warp to station and grab a BB and come back to save you in that time.

An additional option is for you to take advantage of the same logi setup that I have and park an out of corp Osprey in your mining op. Even relatively skilled safari characters won't be able to break those reps by themselves, and have no ability to bring in extra help, while you do. (CCP, unkillable logi is broken. Please have corp-on-corp cause an LE so that out of corp reps cause a suspect flag and I can reship my logi to a proteus after getting shot at and get involved. Thanks in advance.)

Now that I've solved your problem for you, let's watch you move the goal post and say that you should be able to easily defeat safari dudes with a combination of no safari history and several months of skill training.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-06-07 18:23:56 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
extremely mad OP has tricked me




Monk

Never said I was mad lol just brought up a point but its an honor you posted in my post. Do you think it would be a game changer if they did remove Awoxing? Im sure you could adapt.

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom
Dave Stark
#129 - 2013-06-07 18:28:09 UTC
RomeStar wrote:
Im sure you could adapt.


how do you adapt when you've entirely removed the mechanic?
that's kinda like saying "we're removing water, i'm sure you'll survive"
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#130 - 2013-06-07 18:31:58 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
Alright. I don't normally post this info in public, but extremely mad OP has tricked me into revealing the secret to stopping me.

Let's pretend we're talking about one of those 'undetectable' sub-1M sp characters that you're so worried about (despite the fact that I had such a character detetected twice yesterday). Let's pretend you failed to notice him on the way in and failed to take the precautions to prevent him from shooting you. Let's pretend that you've done every possible thing wrong and he's landed in the middle of your mining op with a destroyer and is shooting your untanked Hulks and Orcas and Freighters and ****.

Have ECM drones out. Or pop them out once the shooting starts. Or have one of your miners store his Hulk in the Orca and board a Blackbird.

Even if he has ECCM on his support logi, if you're at the keyboard and lay the drones on him quickly he won't have a chance to pop much more than a coveter before he's jammed, at which point he drops tackle and everybody just leaves. Any barge that is going to be killed can right-click the Orca and store ship and leave in a pod.

Hell, even if the entire mining op was AFK and you come back to the keyboard to find your Orca half way through shields, you can still pop ECM drones. It takes between 2-7 minutes for a lowbie safari alt to murder an Orca, depending on how it's tanked. In that time, your ECM drones only need to get off one single jam and you've successfully escaped. And if you don't have that, assuming you've done any amount of prep beforehand a corpmate can even warp to station and grab a BB and come back to save you in that time.

An additional option is for you to take advantage of the same logi setup that I have and park an out of corp Osprey in your mining op. Even relatively skilled safari characters won't be able to break those reps by themselves, and have no ability to bring in extra help, while you do. (CCP, unkillable logi is broken. Please have corp-on-corp cause an LE so that out of corp reps cause a suspect flag and I can reship my logi to a proteus after getting shot at and get involved. Thanks in advance.)

Now that I've solved your problem for you, let's watch you move the goal post and say that you should be able to easily defeat safari dudes with a combination of no safari history and several months of skill training.


But....

Basil Pupkin wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Basil Pupkin wrote:
I request again - what possible bother can make victims safe from unobvious awox? I know it's hard to acknowledge you're wrong while being a goon, but still, can you answer this one without ignoring it for the 4th time?


I'm not a goon, not an awoxer, but will weigh in:

A complete surprise attack on "fragile" vessels will result in them dying. However, your blingier vessels (Like an Orca, or a freighter) can easily have the tank and defenses to survive longer than 10 seconds.

A fleet that is prepared can easily release a zerg of EC drones, an orca that's prepared can have a BB or griffin in its bay, with extra jammers in the hangar to jam out the opponent. Ships that haven't returned fire can also be 'depsoited' into the Orca's Ship bay to save them.

These aren't fool proof, and you may take some losses, but dealing with losses is a major part of this game! There are options, and the largest and most effective option is to vet the person joining your corp!


Oh please, not this argument again. If you know you are going to deal with drones, just equip ONE smartbomb and forget drones existed. After that, you know you're not going to deal with something not fitting into the orca, which is one bc or 2 cruisers at most, and what's awesome is that you can check the orca's bay beforehand by actually flying to the orca and checking its bay content before you strike. So, NO, drones are not an option, and ships which aren't complete surprise are not an option either.


Monk, some people just won't accept your "solution" as a viable option.... They have such defeatist attitudes!
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#131 - 2013-06-07 18:44:53 UTC
Ignoring the fact that fitting a smartbomb on an alrieady tightly fit lowbie safari dessie is very difficult and also not a good idea...

EC-300's have an activation proximity of 3.5km, so that's what they orbit at. Small smartbombs have a range of 3km. You could try shooting them with your cata, but unless you're willing to sacrifice a mid for a web you're not likely to get that done inside of one minute, which is plenty of time to get a jam in.

Plus, if there's smartbombs in play you just have to get someone not in corp to wander into smartbomb range and the dude gets CONCORDED.

And again, even if for some reason ECM drones aren't a good enough awnser for you, a blackbird inside the Orca does it.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#132 - 2013-06-07 18:51:30 UTC
RomeStar wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
extremely mad OP has tricked me


Monk

Never said I was mad lol just brought up a point but its an honor you posted in my post. Do you think it would be a game changer if they did remove Awoxing? Im sure you could adapt.


The nerf (not removal) of canflipping nearly destroyed the Suddenly Ninjas community. Many of their best and brightest are still doing related work, but a huge chunk of them just quit or retired into wormholes.

But the premise of your question is a bit flawed, too. It's kinda like asking if the transportation industry would adapt if all trucks were declared illegal. It needs to get done, and vans might be able to fill that gap with increased inefficiency, but why are you making trucks illegal in the first place? Just because you dislike their effect on traffic?

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-06-07 19:39:25 UTC
I would have to say the Awoxer is more risk averse than the carebear he is shooting.
RomeStar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#134 - 2013-06-07 20:00:59 UTC
Psychotic Monk wrote:
RomeStar wrote:
Psychotic Monk wrote:
extremely mad OP has tricked me


Monk

Never said I was mad lol just brought up a point but its an honor you posted in my post. Do you think it would be a game changer if they did remove Awoxing? Im sure you could adapt.


The nerf (not removal) of canflipping nearly destroyed the Suddenly Ninjas community. Many of their best and brightest are still doing related work, but a huge chunk of them just quit or retired into wormholes.

But the premise of your question is a bit flawed, too. It's kinda like asking if the transportation industry would adapt if all trucks were declared illegal. It needs to get done, and vans might be able to fill that gap with increased inefficiency, but why are you making trucks illegal in the first place? Just because you dislike their effect on traffic?



Where is awoxing more common? Obviously high sec for the simple fact that there are more new players in high and they are alot easier to take advantage of which reminds me of the rule regarding baiting noobs in starter systems you just cant do and your a scrub if you do. If you awox a corpmate in a starter system is that a violation of said rule?


I will say though that if you have graduated from the starter system you should know that if you join a corp there is a chance you will be awoxed.

Signatured removed, CCP Phantom
Basil Pupkin
Republic Military School
#135 - 2013-06-07 20:14:42 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I would have to say the Awoxer is more risk averse than the carebear he is shooting.

QFT.

I am NOT asking to remove awoxing. There is a legitimate proposition of a new corp role which would prevent awoxing from being extremely easy and totally riskless activity.

Being teh freightergankbear automatically puts you below missionbear and minerbear in carebear hierarchy.

If you're about to make "this will make eve un-eve" argument, odds are you are defending some utterly horrible mechanics against a good change.
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2013-06-07 20:28:01 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I would have to say the Awoxer is more risk averse than the carebear he is shooting.


I disagree, but that particular argument is not only as old as the hills but basically irrelevant to this discussion.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#137 - 2013-06-07 20:30:54 UTC
I see nothing wrong with being able to grief a corp before my 14 trial expires. And then do again. And again.

Nothing wrong with that mechanic at all.

Really.

Mr Epeen Cool
Mag's
Azn Empire
#138 - 2013-06-07 20:32:40 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
There are a several good reasons why you would allow corp mates to shoot each other:
-- Corp tournaments (I've ran several of these).
-- Insurance frauding (not so common anymore).
-- To test a ship's tank...
-- To stop a corp thief that is hauling your valuable assets off...
-- Web-to-warp Freighters and Orcas
-- AWOXing your corp mates to inflict massive damage to them!
-- Schadenfreude

I'm sure there are other reasons too.. and the "dueling" mechanic only works when both sides agree to the engagement, or have the time/desire to setup the duel.
This.

Have better recruiting standards.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#139 - 2013-06-07 20:36:29 UTC
Basil Pupkin wrote:
I am NOT asking to remove awoxing. There is a legitimate proposition of a new corp role which would prevent awoxing from being extremely easy and totally riskless activity.


Yes, yes you are: nobody would ever assign that role.

Stop asking for the consequences of your bad choices to be removed. This is Eve, not WoW. I understand that you don't like the fact that there are ways for people to shoot you freely in highsec, but that has been the case since the game was released.

Get used to it. The door's always there if you don't like it.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-06-07 20:37:21 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I would have to say the Awoxer is more risk averse than the carebear he is shooting.


You don't get to talk about risk aversion, ever.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar