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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

First post First post First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#141 - 2013-06-05 08:25:36 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Heh, WoW lost about 20% of it's subs in the last 6 months, and they just cancelled their lead project, Titan.


Heh, and CCP made a MMOFPS on the PS3 platform; grew about 250k accounts in 3 years; and had a launch that didn't even peak to 50k online players (well, we saw what the 250k increase came from.../wave at ice farming bots).

It was 14% and most from Asia. MoP wouldn't be a popular theme in Asia.

Titan probably was cancelled due to the reality of PC + console gameplay will be necessary in the next generation MMOs. The clues were in the March Activision-Blizzard stock report.

Now design an AAA MMO with a console in mind. Yeah, reset time. CCP isn't even touching that nightmare.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You really want EVE to be more like WoW?


Yes.

Most successful MMO in almost 10 years running. Do you know of any game franchise that can claim the same?

Don't you want better? Or are you happy with being in second place?

500k to 5mil isn't coming by being a dinosaur.



Do I know a franchise that can claim the same? Yeah, EVE. Highest subs numbers ever, didn't they just recently happyshout about reaching 500k?

WoW, on the other hand, has been going downhill as far as subs go for about 2 and 1/2 xpacs now.

They didn't say why TItan was cancelled. I have my suspicions, but beyond that my point was that Blizzard isn't in too hot shape right now, while EVE is at the peak it's had in a decade.

I'm happy being in second place, yeah. I'm happy with playing one of the only surviving subscription business model MMOs still out there. Especially considering the other one is hemorrhaging subs, no matter the reason. Especially when WoW makes a full fifth of their revenue from their cutesy pet cash shop and paid character services. (btw, their revenue stream is grossly inflated by those things, it makes it look like they're more popular than they are).

Not touching the console thing either. If the major MMO marketers were smarter, they'd stop alienating their core customer base by making crappy console oriented games in the first place. Bethesda is the one designer that does that even remotely well, and they only live off it because their games can have the UI modded to not be "console stupid".

500k to 5mil isn't coming. Period. The core design philosophy of the game doesn't have that kind of appeal. Change it too much, and the people who liked it the way it was will walk. And they'd be right to do so. It's in fact the exact same thing CCP did, they were Ultima Online players who skipped when that game got split up because of QQ and started catering to casuals.

And then UO died. As it deserved to, because the people who liked the game in the first place? Turns out they were all paying customers.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2013-06-05 08:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Ace Uoweme
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Are you trolling?


Are you?

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Not everything is about subscription numbers and big name recognition.


Tell me a game that is under the radar that is pulling over 100mil a month just on subs alone (even after a 14% tumble)? Better yet, provide a stock report as proof.

/crickets/

You may like quaintness, but businesses are in business to make a profit. Did you think CCP made DUSK just for show? They're looking for capital in a tight market locked up at the top.

If you can't get through that glass ceiling, you make the most of it at the 10th floor...not go back to the garage.

James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sure it would be nice if EVE were more popular, but if you try to get there from here by sacrificing many of the core tenets of the game then you're going to lose what sets the EVE community apart from any other MMO, which are the many tens to hundreds of thousands of players who stay subscribed for many years because they love the game and know that its experience is unparalleled by any themepark MMO available today.


Core tenets? Do you realize they change? They change when a game faces new challenges and audience.

Ask Blizzard about transmorg. That was a major change for a game built upon silhouette recognition. They resisted it to the last drop. But, transmorg is in the game now (and not a day too late).

EvE will evolve. What it'll be in 5 years is anyone's guess. But you can guarantee it won't be what you expect.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#143 - 2013-06-05 09:15:51 UTC
Quote:
Tell me a game that is under the radar that is pulling over 100mil a month just on subs alone (even after a 14% tumble)? Better yet, provide a stock report as proof.

/crickets/


Tell me the company with the single highest numbers in history of customer returns of a single game. Btw, it's Blizzard. That kind of statement would be like me telling you that Warhammer 40k is more popular the WoW because 40k sells more books... Roll

Yeah... that's their take... but what's their overhead for maintenance of 200+ servers? What's their employee payout for their staff, which is about 4 times the size of CCP?

Quote:

You may like quaintness, but businesses are in business to make a profit. Did you think CCP made DUSK just for show? They're looking for capital in a tight market locked up at the top.

If you can't get through that glass ceiling, you make the most of it at the 10th floor...not go back to the garage.



Glass ceiling, wow. Let's go ahead and drag rhetoric from the 60's back up in here. And you called me a dinosaur.

CCP pretty much did end up making DUST (btw, not with a "k") for show, yeah. DUST is about the lore, it's about, much like WiS was, getting the perspective of the smaller scale of the New Eden universe. DUST is a pet project that they hope will increase their take.

If it were a more serious crack at a business model, it wouldn't be free.

Quote:
Core tenets? Do you realize they change? They change when a game faces new challenges and audience.

Ask Blizzard about transmorg. That was a major change for a game built upon silhouette recognition. They resisted it to the last drop. But, transmorg is in the game now (and not a day too late).

EvE will evolve. What it'll be in 5 years is anyone's guess. But you can guarantee it won't be what you expect.


[email protected] reference. If you think silhouette recognition is a core tenant of WoW, you have just proved beyond a shadow of doubt you have no clue what you are talking about.

EVE is just about the same game it was 5 years ago. Despite your agitating (and why, btw. You have yet to give a reason for any of this), the game still holds to it's core principles. If you undock, you consent to PvP. Penalties for death. Older players have a SP advantage. Cutthroat capitalism.

Which of those core principles are you referring to that EVE apparently needs to get rid of? How about you tell us what you think needs to happen so we can make this more accessible for grrls, and why, and what you think will happen once said change is made.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#144 - 2013-06-05 09:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lost True
stoicfaux wrote:
http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/06/03/96-percent-of-eve-online-players-are-male/
Quote:

CCP marketing bigwig David Reid recently told Destructoid that 96 percent of EVE Online players are male. The site also interviewed EVE senior producer Andie Nordgren, who opined that the numbers are a byproduct of genre.

"Part of it is due to the theme of the game. Science fiction is an extremely male-dominated domain," she explained. Whatever the reasons, CCP is OK with EVE's current demographics. "It's not a goal for us as a development team to specifically increase the number of female players," Nordgren said. It's "more an indicator than something [to] strive for."


Takeaways:
a) GiRL is GiRL. Think about that the next time you cyber.

b) How can we, a bunch of sci-fiction addicted hyper-aggressive males with spastic trigger fingers and/or mining/missioning Carebears who enjoy repeated repetition while dwelling in our parents' basement, help CCP to increase sub numbers by attracting female players to EVE?

I, for one, am at a loss. Especially after my wife laughed when I asked for suggestions.


It's very simple.
Most women are not attracted much by competition and achieving goals. It's a problem with all games in some extent.
But eve IS positioning as dark, hard and not casual game, so enjoy your dark game without the women.

Walking on stations was something that can attract more women, but they've failed it.And the casual gameplay is almost dead.

If you'll invite some girls in the game they won't be here for long, because they'll be playing not because they like something in this game.

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#145 - 2013-06-05 10:04:47 UTC
Quote:
It's very simple.
Most women are not attracted much by competition and achieving goals. It's a problem with all the games in some extent.
But eve IS positioning as dark, hard and not casual game, so enjoy your dark game without the women.


That's what most of us are trying to do. Some people like to agitate and say we need to make the game open to Felicia Farmville and Angry Birds Annie. I reject that premise without reservation.

Quote:
Walking on stations was something that can attract more women, but they've failed it.And the casual gameplay is almost dead.

If you'll invite some girls in the game they won't be here for long, because they'll be playing not because they like something in this game.


Walking in stations just about cost them the game. Follow anything related to that example, and the playerbase will rightly jump down your throat feet first. Can't blame them either, I actually like playing the game.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#146 - 2013-06-05 10:29:36 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
It's very simple.
Most women are not attracted much by competition and achieving goals. It's a problem with all the games in some extent.
But eve IS positioning as dark, hard and not casual game, so enjoy your dark game without the women.


That's what most of us are trying to do. Some people like to agitate and say we need to make the game open to Felicia Farmville and Angry Birds Annie. I reject that premise without reservation.

Quote:
Walking on stations was something that can attract more women, but they've failed it.And the casual gameplay is almost dead.

If you'll invite some girls in the game they won't be here for long, because they'll be playing not because they like something in this game.


Walking in stations just about cost them the game. Follow anything related to that example, and the playerbase will rightly jump down your throat feet first. Can't blame them either, I actually like playing the game.

I don't want to discuss why WiS was failed, it's a long story.
It's just a fact that there won't be more girls playing this game in the current state and considering where it's going.
More than that, i don't want my girl to play THAT.

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#147 - 2013-06-05 10:37:04 UTC
Quote:
I don't want to discuss why WiS was failed, it's a long story.
It's just a fact that there won't be more girls playing this game in the current state and considering where it's going.
More than that, i don't want my girl to play THAT.


WiS failed because it wasted a ton of dev time on something that had no effect on the actual game. But yeah, the specifics are worth their own thread.

It is a fact that the way this game is designed, it has little appeal to most females. I'd love to hear more explanation on your point of view of that, though. Especially why you wouldn't want your girl playing it. I assume wife, girlfriend, or daughter.

I just don't see why feminist thought is determined to tear down anything it thinks constitutes a "boys club" when there are plenty of things out there that work the other way around, but are deemed perfectly fine.

I like my game the way it is. Maybe a bit more work put into some of the under used ships and weapons, but yeah, by and large, I am happy with EVE. I am happy it's grimdark, I am happy it's cutthroat, and I am happy with the playerbase and the way they play the game.

What's wrong with a little exclusivity?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#148 - 2013-06-05 11:17:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Glass ceiling, wow. Let's go ahead and drag rhetoric from the 60's back up in here. And you called me a dinosaur.


Drag rhetoric from the 60s? I lived back then.

Do you remember desegregation?

Do you remember it as "colored"?

Do you remember the E.R.A. movement?

I did.

I'm nearly 50, but this dinosaur doesn't sit back and say...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilx0VAwtjUE

Don't repeat history. You'll make the same mistakes.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Lost True
Perkone
Caldari State
#149 - 2013-06-05 11:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Lost True
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I don't want to discuss why WiS was failed, it's a long story.
It's just a fact that there won't be more girls playing this game in the current state and considering where it's going.
More than that, i don't want my girl to play THAT.


WiS failed because it wasted a ton of dev time on something that had no effect on the actual game. But yeah, the specifics are worth their own thread.

And why it had no effect? Because it was unfinished = not good enough = too big task to finish = fail.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

It is a fact that the way this game is designed, it has little appeal to most females. I'd love to hear more explanation on your point of view of that, though. Especially why you wouldn't want your girl playing it. I assume wife, girlfriend, or daughter.

I just don't see why feminist thought is determined to tear down anything it thinks constitutes a "boys club" when there are plenty of things out there that work the other way around, but are deemed perfectly fine.

I like my game the way it is. Maybe a bit more work put into some of the under used ships and weapons, but yeah, by and large, I am happy with EVE. I am happy it's grimdark, I am happy it's cutthroat, and I am happy with the playerbase and the way they play the game.

What's wrong with a little exclusivity?

In short, the reason why i won't motivate my girlfriend to play EVE is because i want she to be a woman, a happy woman.
She wouldn't be happy running missions, mining in WH/Null while constantly looking at the scanner trying to not get killed. And she won't be a woman if she'll be on the other side: griefing people, listening to the TS(which is annoying even for me), and stuff like that.

Of course i like these kinds of women too, i'd be happy to play with them, to chat... Anything except the personal relationships.

in 2007 i've thought it's a sci-fi simulator, not an "e-sports" game. I'm not a teenager, how would i like it much?

Shedemei Silfar
Miskatonic Mercantile
#150 - 2013-06-05 11:51:03 UTC
Quote:

WiS failed because it wasted a ton of dev time on something that had no effect on the actual game. But yeah, the specifics are worth their own thread.

It is a fact that the way this game is designed, it has little appeal to most females. I'd love to hear more explanation on your point of view of that, though. Especially why you wouldn't want your girl playing it. I assume wife, girlfriend, or daughter.

I just don't see why feminist thought is determined to tear down anything it thinks constitutes a "boys club" when there are plenty of things out there that work the other way around, but are deemed perfectly fine.

I like my game the way it is. Maybe a bit more work put into some of the under used ships and weapons, but yeah, by and large, I am happy with EVE. I am happy it's grimdark, I am happy it's cutthroat, and I am happy with the playerbase and the way they play the game.

What's wrong with a little exclusivity?


Really? I'm hoping you didn't mean it quite like that.

Personally, as i've stated before, I don't really need or want game mechanics to change. This is not about CCP, at least not for me. They've made a great game, they continue to improve it... got no beef. Some parts of this game are cutthroat, others are not... people will play where and how they like.

This has to do with blatant discrimination, and hateful remarks directed at a specific segment of our species.

I'm female, and just like every other HUMAN in the world, I want to pursue those things that interest me and that I'm good at. What's wrong with exclusivity? When it's based upon something that has no bearing on your ability to participate, then it is discrimination, pure and simple.

I will continue to participate in those things... sorry if it threatens a few egos. Those who hide behind misogynistic remarks, I will continue to laugh at and/or ignore. I see it for the fear that it is. The world will continue to evolve, they can resist all they like.

This is not about game mechanics. Let's not confuse the two.
Dez Affinity
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-06-05 11:55:50 UTC
Yes nerds treat women differently on the internet, most are just trying to be funny and edgy, the others think this opportunity to talk to a girl might finally get them laid. It's not really a unique experience to EVE though, the only difference is in EVE it's pretty hard to hide your gender with the need for voice comms.

I know in PL apart from some dumb comments that we make about everything and everyone, it's not that bad.
Sol Kal'orr
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2013-06-05 11:58:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
I think after today, it is very clear why few women play EVE.

Always putting a personal spin on things, aren't you?


I'm lost, elaborate?
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#153 - 2013-06-05 13:36:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Ace Uoweme wrote:
What would EvE offer to counter that -- which would fit into the EvE universe -- and not turn women away at the word: PvP?


I'm going to ask what seems like a question with a very obvious answer: what is PVP? More specifically, what do those women here when you say 'PVP?' What's their association?

I ask because I know a few women in EVE. One of them was absolutely, unconditionally PVP-hostile. Then I told her about a fight we got into and posted the Local chat that happened afterward, which was all good-humored and sporting and full of mutual respect, and her reaction was, "oh, if it's that kind of PVP then I could do that." (It was a hard fight, and we lost.) Now, she is not all women, of course, but the exchange did make me wonder. After all, women play RL competitive sports in droves; it's not that surprising that they'd enjoy the virtual parallel, right? So in this case, the problem comes back to the culture around the game, at least as it's perceived. Some women may want perfectly well to throw down, but not to put up with the heaps of abuse that they get from engaging men aggressively and especially beating them in game, or even from just playing a PVP game. I don't have to rely on my little bit of anecdata for this, either: there's plentymore.

To the people asking why a person's gender should matter at all in a video game: when we get to the point that it doesn't, problem solved.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2013-06-05 13:37:42 UTC
Sol Kal'orr wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
I think after today, it is very clear why few women play EVE.

Always putting a personal spin on things, aren't you?


I'm lost, elaborate?

Marlona seems to take the neo-feminist approach of declaring any criticism of a woman as misogynistic.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
The Initiative.
#155 - 2013-06-05 13:44:00 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sol Kal'orr wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
I think after today, it is very clear why few women play EVE.

Always putting a personal spin on things, aren't you?


I'm lost, elaborate?

Marlona seems to take the neo-feminist approach of declaring any criticism of a woman as misogynistic.


What happend today had nothing to do with "criticism" any more. It was a disgusting display of envious, misgynistic, puritanic Idiots.

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2013-06-05 14:20:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Why try to slice into WoW's playerbase to add to ours, is what I want to know. Given what I know of the WoW playerbase, we'd pretty much have "Everyone who played EVE before X" doing their level best to kill everyone else and drive them out of the game. So why?


Because it holds the bulk of players.

Currently I'm paying for 3 WoW accounts and 2 EvE accounts. I skill in EvE, play in WoW, for example. If I want to actually play EvE, I'll have to close my WoW accounts to have the time. With family playing in WoW, do you know how long I managed to keep those accounts closed in 4 years? 3 months max. Sis comes in, "We need a healer.......". Other sis needs help on gearing. I'll never break free as long as they play WoW.

I love WoW, and I hate WoW. Love it for my class and role. Hate it because it's v-e-r-y difficult to actually leave the game even when bored to death of it. You can't just switch it off for long...someone always needs you. Friends or family. It's Facebook before Facebook existed.

That's the holding power of WoW.

That Take-Two Interactive chairman flat out said it recently:

Quote:
“We’re actively investing in online and MMOs, we’re just not doing it in the U.S. MMOs don’t work here. A couple of our competitors have found out that through very, very expensive lessons...”


It doesn't work, because one game holds most of the players...and won't stay long in a new MMO to give it a chance.

Irony in all of this is, Titan (Blizzard's next gen MMO) may not succeed because WoW players won't leave WoW long enough to play it. Blizzard may become a victim of it's own success. They would have to kill WoW to make another MMO or integrated WoW into Titan (cloning or character transfers), or it'll suffer what RIFT and SWTOR faced. Titan has no previous IP to go upon, unless it's a remake of WoW vanilla/TBC/WotLK. If so, the MMO industry just lost 10 more years, as that's more candy for WoW addicts. Blizzard does one thing very very well...when they copy their previous IP, watch out, it reenergizes the fan base. Hybrid game with XBox/PS4 + PC and WotLK II...I'm calling it...at least 20mil subs.

So, whatever franchise can get those WoW players...literally wins the MMO game.

And they do need that 51% female untapped market for help.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#157 - 2013-06-05 14:23:11 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
What would EvE offer to counter that -- which would fit into the EvE universe -- and not turn women away at the word: PvP?


I'm going to ask what seems like a question with a very obvious answer: what is PVP? More specifically, what do those women here when you say 'PVP?' What's their association?

I ask because I know a few women in EVE. One of them was absolutely, unconditionally PVP-hostile. Then I told her about a fight we got into and posted the Local chat that happened afterward, which was all good-humored and sporting and full of mutual respect, and her reaction was, "oh, if it's that kind of PVP then I could do that." (It was a hard fight, and we lost.) Now, she is not all women, of course, but the exchange did make me wonder. After all, women play RL competitive sports in droves; it's not that surprising that they'd enjoy the virtual parallel, right? So in this case, the problem comes back to the culture around the game, at least as it's perceived. Some women may want perfectly well to throw down, but not to put up with the heaps of abuse that they get from engaging men aggressively and especially beating them in game, or even from just playing a PVP game. I don't have to rely on my little bit of anecdata for this, either: there's plentymore.

To the people asking why a person's gender should matter at all in a video game: when we get to the point that it doesn't, problem solved.

Women liking competitive and violent sports?

grew up playing Rugby, meanest SoB's in my town, the kind NO ONE wanted to play against, because you were almost GUARANTEED an injury?
An all-girls team. eventually they grew to 30 soemthing players and had several teams.

IMO girls DO like competitive sports, and are usually more bloodthirsty uthless than guys.

in my experience what women DONT like, is being treated like "girls" (as in being babied, gone easy on, things obviously done BECAUSE of their gender), when they start getting treated like that, they generally leave and dont come back, they PREFER to be treated equally (shocker, right?) in a competitive setting.


granted, there arent as many women ratio-wise as men that enjoy competitive atmospheres, but that is more than just them being female, thats societal/cultural pressures telling them what they should and should not like because of their gender, which thankfully more and more girls these days have stopped giving a **** about what "society" says they should act like, and instead just at like whatever they want.
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
#158 - 2013-06-05 14:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Africa
1. Heh my partner plays Eve , more than I do .

All I can say is never settle for anything less ! Blink
Seniae 0n3
#159 - 2013-06-05 14:36:31 UTC
Why do ppl feel the need to "protect" women in how sexy, strong, female and smart they are? Can't they just enjoy a game without all that patronizing bs, do we need to prove that gaming women can still be female?
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
#160 - 2013-06-05 14:56:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Africa
Seniae 0n3 wrote:
Why do ppl feel the need to "protect" women in how sexy, strong, female and smart they are? Can't they just enjoy a game without all that patronizing bs, do we need to prove that gaming women can still be female?


HUH are you referring to me now ? Im just proud of my babes lol She has more than enough tiger in her to be herself without me hanging labels on her.

But yea maybe your right , my apologies I meant it in a good way .

.....Yea I now get what your saying , its just old school programming I'm use to.