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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

First post First post First post
Author
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#621 - 2013-06-19 10:10:19 UTC
Ariel Dawn wrote:
CCP can't fix the dynamic that exists between the genders, but they can work on the population disparity so that the morons/louts harassing women will think twice when there's a greater # of women that will call them out for what kind of people they are.


You think the threat of being accosted by finger-waggers is going to persuade misogynists/foul-mouths? At best you're reinforcing their stereotypes and at worst you're giving them a legitimate reason to dislike you. You're certainly never going to get a properly persuasive argument in if you "call them out" and the FC/whatever authority is going to tell you both to STFU. If Eve lent itself to political correctness it wouldn't be an engaging fantasy world; at very least it would be a very different one and there's no reason for CCP to overhaul their proven business model. If you take time to note the other vulgarity in Eve, you'll quickly note that it doesn't stem from any sort of disparity.

**** ain't a Python convention
Elliavir
Miskatonic Mercantile
#622 - 2013-06-19 14:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Elliavir
S Byerley wrote:
... and the FC/whatever authority is going to tell you both to STFU...


And yet, oddly enough, as has been mentioned multiple times on this very thread, part of the problem is how rarely anyone else is telling those jerks to STFU and just shoot some stuff. And, once again, we have concern for the feelings of people who are causing the problem rather than any interest in stopping the problem.

If EVE can only be an "engaging fantasy world" when a player daring to identify themselves as having double-X chromosomes makes themselves a target for harassment, I question what qualifies as fun for you. And, frankly, if calling people out for blatantly discriminatory behavior gives them a "legitimate reason to dislike" me... who cares? They are already being a waste of biomass with their illegitimate reasons.

Maybe once, just to try it out, we could tell the guys being asshats to HTFU and just accept that they might have to fly their internet spaceships with some female players without freaking out about it - and make their own damn 'sammiches'?
JustAnotherHighSecAlt
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#623 - 2013-06-19 14:38:11 UTC
Communications works two ways. Yes there are certainly a lot of depressing neckbeards in this game who abuse women in chat and in-game.

However, I have previously been accused of being a "fat motherf****** internet virgin stalker" by a woman, when interviewing her for an application to my corporation and asking where she's located (a question every single one of our members has answered without any problems before).

We killed a female streamer a couple of weeks ago. She immediately assumed, that we'd killed her only because she was a woman and for no other reason. Completely refused to accept that we kill EVE-streamers no matter who they are.

My corporation has and has had women in it. It's never been a problem, as long as they've behaved like normal people and not tried to use the fact that they are a woman to their advantage, be it to get officer roles, ISK, use it as an excuse when doing something wrong, etc...

People like a recent employee of CCP, or that streamer we killed, they are also one of the reasons why a lot of EVE-players harass women. They crave attention, willing to do anything to get it and you can't do much else but despise them for what they are: complete sell-outs. They simply make a big deal about being women, while in my opinion, gender shouldn't matter in an MMO.

So yes, some men should certainly improve on dealing with women, but that also counts for some women.

(Also, I'm gay, I couldn't care less about your body shape, but I do care about the attitude you bring into my social circle)
Maybelater Headache
Doomheim
#624 - 2013-06-19 15:02:06 UTC
Elliavir wrote:
...They are already being a waste of biomass with their illegitimate reasons.


Interesting point of view.
S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#625 - 2013-06-19 15:05:42 UTC
Elliavir wrote:
And yet, oddly enough, as has been mentioned multiple times on this very thread, part of the problem is how rarely anyone else is telling those jerks to STFU and just shoot some stuff. And, once again, we have concern for the feelings of people who are causing the problem rather than any interest in stopping the problem.


The assumption is that it quickly escalated into bickering; if your corp tolerates shouting matches on comms that's probably a more pressing issue.

Elliavir wrote:
If EVE can only be an "engaging fantasy world" when a player daring to identify themselves as having double-X chromosomes makes themselves a target for harassment, I question what qualifies as fun for you. And, frankly, if calling people out for blatantly discriminatory behavior gives them a "legitimate reason to dislike" me... who cares? They are already being a waste of biomass with their illegitimate reasons.


Much like the real world, high-stress/high-adrenaline environments encourage vulgarity because it's a release mechanism. People also expect their fantasy world to free them from their more taxing societal obligations (political correctness is certainly near the top of my personal list). The behavior you dislike is a side-effect and very hard to curb. I can't muster a single example where it doesn't manifest.

I resent your implication that I derive my jollies from sexual harassment and since you're advocating equality/proportionate response I'll riposte: High-adrenaline environments also encourage the quick formation/cementing of amicable relationships; I question whether someone who can't quickly work past their initial indignation actually deserves any respect.

Elliavir wrote:
Maybe once, just to try it out, we could tell the guys being asshats to HTFU and just accept that they might have to fly their internet spaceships with some female players without freaking out about it - and make their own damn 'sammiches'?


You've tried this I'm sure; how'd it work out? While hatred is the natural response to perceived hatred, it rarely helps. Even if everyone present were to rise up in your defense, the other party will naturally feel alienated and see you as the obvious cause. They presumably don't understand why the behavior was wrong or they wouldn't have done it in the first place; you might eventually get the pavlovian response you're looking for, but it won't be genuine and the prejudice, now reinforced, will surface in other ways.

I don't care to assign victims; certainly not when it involves baser human behavior. I'd encourage you to change your reaction simply because it's the path of least resistance. It's easiest to shatter someone's prejudice when the object defies it. I'm no psychologist, but I believe (until persuaded otherwise) that if you confront the person assertively and in private, explaining the offense in terms they can understand, you'll get much better responses. Yes, it's more work on your part.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#626 - 2013-06-19 15:06:43 UTC
JustAnotherHighSecAlt wrote:
Communications works two ways. Yes there are certainly a lot of depressing neckbeards in this game who abuse women in chat and in-game.

However, I have previously been accused of being a "fat motherf****** internet virgin stalker" by a woman, when interviewing her for an application to my corporation and asking where she's located (a question every single one of our members has answered without any problems before).

We killed a female streamer a couple of weeks ago. She immediately assumed, that we'd killed her only because she was a woman and for no other reason. Completely refused to accept that we kill EVE-streamers no matter who they are.


My corporation has and has had women in it. It's never been a problem, as long as they've behaved like normal people and not tried to use the fact that they are a woman to their advantage, be it to get officer roles, ISK, use it as an excuse when doing something wrong, etc...

People like a recent employee of CCP, or that streamer we killed, they are also one of the reasons why a lot of EVE-players harass women. They crave attention, willing to do anything to get it and you can't do much else but despise them for what they are: complete sell-outs. They simply make a big deal about being women, while in my opinion, gender shouldn't matter in an MMO.

So yes, some men should certainly improve on dealing with women, but that also counts for some women.

(Also, I'm gay, I couldn't care less about your body shape, but I do care about the attitude you bring into my social circle)


Lies, there are no Gay EVE online players because the community is hostile and homophobic (LOL).

+1, I've dealt with the same things in game...and out. Some people are so self centered that ANYTHING you do to them is somehow personal..

I must be doing it wrong, when that guy awoxxed my Vindicator in fountain, I should screamed "you just killed me because I'm black" in local, hoping someone from ccp would see it and give me my ship back :). Because they totally knew I was black, the char flying the vindi was BRUTOR of course Twisted
JustAnotherHighSecAlt
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#627 - 2013-06-19 15:25:08 UTC
Quote:
Lies, there are no Gay EVE online players because the community is hostile and homophobic (LOL).


On the contrary, I've found it to be very bicurious :) (especially at RL corp meets... ^^)
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#628 - 2013-06-19 15:51:30 UTC
JustAnotherHighSecAlt wrote:
Communications works two ways. Yes there are certainly a lot of depressing neckbeards in this game who abuse women in chat and in-game.

However, I have previously been accused of being a "fat motherf****** internet virgin stalker" by a woman, when interviewing her for an application to my corporation and asking where she's located (a question every single one of our members has answered without any problems before).



Asking where a person is located by means of which country in IRL is more of wondering what time zone they belong in which is quite important for a corporation. For example if a corporation was fully EUTZ it might not be suitable for someone who is AUTZ. Every corporation I have joined had a question relating what time zone you are in.

I haven't came across highly abusive EVE players before, I've came across female EVE players quite frequently and they don't play different to male EVE players.

In fact it can be quite difficult to recognize who is male and female in EVE, usually voice communications confirms this.
Call Rollard
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#629 - 2013-06-19 15:53:23 UTC
CCP isn't focusing on gender for EVE, it appeals to a persons interests not gender.

This game is focused on interests and quite frequently patience, CCP shouldn't make it appeal to any gender.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#630 - 2013-06-19 17:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
My wife plays EvE, although she plays no other game online, so I'll just make some observations and let you draw your own conclusions.

1: Before she ever began playing she asked that I put our voice coms over my speakers instead of my head phones. She enjoyed listening to the corp chatter in the back ground while doing other things. The eventually led to her feeling comfortable enough to start interjecting her own comments. While she is no shrinking violet, I believe she felt comfortable with this because none of us were big fans of letting voice coms get too stupid or crude.

2: Once she played the game for the first time, my son immediately killed her. This startled her, and then she laughed... and losing a ship has never bothered her since then.

3: She finds the game play engaging, the politics interesting, but finds ship fitting to be the most boring activity designed by man... and usually asks me to do it. She's a bit of a brainiac so no, it's not too hard for her in the slightest, it just bores her to tears. Ratting or industry of any type runs a close second. She had no issues participating in the occasional mining op (due to the high level of social interaction going on during them I believe) but usually opted to fly top cover instead of hauling or mining.

4: She is quite possibly one of the most aggressive and effective blaster boat pilots I have seen in this game, and a reasonably good scout (although she is a bit too aggressive to excel at it, she likes to get her hands dirty too much).

5: While she spent a bit of time getting her Avatar to look right when Incarna was released, she really doesn't mess with it. In fact, I tweak it more than she does. Smile She does, however, like the idea of Avatar based game play because it would likely be linked with the social aspects of EvE.

6: While she is good natured about bantering (or if necessary shutting someone down) on a "mature and adult" level, it can get old for her (and the rest of us) very quickly. If the players I hang with were over the top crude or creepy that would put a big damper on the experience for her (and frankly for me as well). In this aspect I think many women that try the game are driven away by the very people that would most like them to play. Blink


For what it's worth.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Machagon
Plate of Beans Incorporated
#631 - 2013-06-19 21:22:06 UTC
I know several women who play EVE. Most of them use male avatars...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#632 - 2013-06-20 00:31:22 UTC
Quote:
We killed a female streamer a couple of weeks ago. She immediately assumed, that we'd killed her only because she was a woman and for no other reason. Completely refused to accept that we kill EVE-streamers no matter who they are.



Please EVEmail me the killmail. I delight in streamer tears.


Also, for anyone still reading this thread, the behavior displayed above, is precisely what myself, and a lot of people, wish to avoid. Male or female, or anything in between, I do not tolerate that kind of thing. And by "not tolerate" I mean "shoot at".


Quote:
I've dealt with the same things in game...and out. Some people are so self centered that ANYTHING you do to them is somehow personal..



Yep, got it in one sentence. Pixels aren't worth so much drama.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#633 - 2013-06-20 01:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
Ranger 1 wrote:


6: While she is good natured about bantering (or if necessary shutting someone down) on a "mature and adult" level, it can get old for her (and the rest of us) very quickly. If the players I hang with were over the top crude or creepy that would put a big damper on the experience for her (and frankly for me as well). In this aspect I think many women that try the game are driven away by the very people that would most like them to play. Blink



Cheers to you both.

I am always impressed by mature corps that know how to have a good time that doesn't include at the expense of their own members.

Other people's idea of fun is different and some rather turn their corp into their own crude, creepy cesspool. Fine, have at it, but be honest about it and do both your corp and potential member a favor by not pretending you're otherwise.

Given EVE is more about people than ships in many ways, it would be really nice to be able to better identify how a corp rolls -- whether to female or male applicants. Such a database (or even list) would help new people (and late bloomers who may solo the game first) as well.

It's one thing to need tough skin to survive EVE but another to be a new player and find yourself in a corp you hate and not really know alternatives exist. (ETA: Heck, my last corp (not on this character, I wasn't there long enough to count it-- RL stuff) --full of good people-- was burned by three alliances. One had a good track record since 09 *shrug*

Say what you will about the leadership's decisions, but most those players left null completely (never to look back) or only play occasionally). They had a lot of enthusiasm for the game -- but similar to gender issues, spinning your wheels with no payoff, just to (try to) have fun, is a chore.

EVE appeals to typically non-MMO types as well, because of its maturity, uniqueness, sandboxiness and challenge. These same people may simply not find the game worth pursuing if it's a huge hassle (not knowing alternatives exist) -- to be a female player or just be yourself.

ETA: It would also be nice to make guys more comfortable. If they hear a girl say "point" in fleet for the first time and guys clam up (rather than get obnoxious), I think lack of exposure to girls, in-game or otherwise, is part of the problem -- and we can do our part to make them more comfortable.

And, I most agree with your last sentence. +1

This is really a stealth nerf car salesmen (aka recruiters) thread.
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#634 - 2013-06-20 03:43:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarra Mandalin
gremlins in my EVE gate /ignore -- sorry
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#635 - 2013-06-20 03:44:55 UTC
nevermind -- my post was overwritten and I don't feel like retyping it.
Shedemei Silfar
Miskatonic Mercantile
#636 - 2013-06-20 13:46:31 UTC
Wow this is still going on.

I really don't know what's so hard about this. For me, Banter = OK, obviously directed personal attacks and discrimination = NOT OK, regardless of the target.

I understand that there are people that don't know the difference. I understand that humans, regardless of race, creed, color, gender, etc... have an equal potential to be amazing folks or total asshats.

For me personally, i would not join a corp or alliance that tolerates personal attacks and/or discrimination, or asshattery of any sort.. I've run MMO guilds before, and if i actually had the time to run a corp in this game, there would be a zero tolerance policy for that - ESPECIALLY if it was a PvP corp. My personal view is if you can't work together because of some dumbass bias, go elsewhere. Don't need the entire team getting blown up because someone can't put their corp before their own need to stroke their ego.
Xeraphi
Perkone
Caldari State
#637 - 2013-06-24 01:54:36 UTC
JustAnotherHighSecAlt wrote:
They crave attention, willing to do anything to get it and you can't do much else but despise them for what they are: complete sell-outs. They simply make a big deal about being women, while in my opinion, gender shouldn't matter in an MMO.


Because no woman ever spoke out after men say there are no women in EVE to say "hey I'm a woman, we exist and are real" and then got accused of just wanting attention, right?

Absolutely, gender shouldn't matter in an MMO. Unfortunately, when women are a minority and speaking out to correct the assumption that there are no women around means that you get labelled as "just wanting attention" and made a target for bullying and **** "jokes" it does matter. Especially when you can't hide your gender on comms.

New target lock death animation problem #1 ^ eye strain and pain Temporary workaround found to one of these.

Isaac Collins
I.SYS
Corpse Disposal Services
#638 - 2013-06-24 06:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Isaac Collins
It really shouldn't matter what percentage of women play a game. This is like saying football is a 100% male sport, what can we do to up the women players? It's silly, This game is beyond tedius, this game has no interaction for vanity on your characters, this game was supposed to have more uses for your character than just your avatar and running around in a CQ. This game is beyond frustrating, a new player goes through hell losing their first few ships, it's probably the hardest part of keeping new players.

The game is not even remotely appealing to the opposite gender in a lot more aspects then one. Given I think the odds are higher than 4%, but there is no reason for women to identify them selves as females and lots of studies have proven they prefer not to be identified as female.
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#639 - 2013-06-24 09:44:10 UTC
Kind of funny it isn't higher. Eve has everything a girl could want.

Shopping, a whole lot of shopping, we even have a space mall called Jita.

Cat Fights, A whole lot of cat fights. Figuratively and literally. The ladies can go all feral and duke it out in epic space battles, Just think Mean Girls but in space. Trash talking goes along with that as well.

And of course who can forget the Space Barbies, customize-able characters, They can play dress up and plastic surgeon. Another element of shopping here as well.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#640 - 2013-06-24 09:56:52 UTC
Tuttomenui II wrote:
Kind of funny it isn't higher. Eve has everything a girl could want.

Shopping, a whole lot of shopping, we even have a space mall called Jita.

Cat Fights, A whole lot of cat fights. Figuratively and literally. The ladies can go all feral and duke it out in epic space battles, Just think Mean Girls but in space. Trash talking goes along with that as well.

And of course who can forget the Space Barbies, customize-able characters, They can play dress up and plastic surgeon. Another element of shopping here as well.


And it has a map so men (who everyone knows hate asking for directions) can still find their way home.

It's a gender equality wonderland.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016