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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

First post First post First post
Author
Shedemei Silfar
Miskatonic Mercantile
#601 - 2013-06-14 19:02:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
If you're gonna try to play the reverse discrimination card, don't bother.

She very clearly stated exactly why she valued his experience. He shared how he dealt with being targeted as a minority. Now if you have a story where you were actually really a minority AND you've been treated like one, please feel free to share... but so far I'm not seeing it. I have no idea what your actual ethnicity is, and don't care, but so far your overall tone is that of a person who has never been the target of hate or dehumanization. LIke so:


Heh, I wasn't trying to do anything. It would have been nice to hear something besides "Oh you're black, so you understand" in so many words. I do however find it highly amusing that the response to having been caught inn such a patronizing and arguably racist statement was the forum equivalent of "I'm taking my ball and going home!".

Also, dunno why, but the link didn't work.

Quote:
Now, if you'd care to share otherwise - and i don't mean "omg i had to work with alot of women once and i heard them say men don't like to ask for directions"... but something personal and hateful directed at YOU, for no reason other than being male, go right ahead. Otherwise, it's hard to listen when you say "oh, you should just ignore them".


That last sentence is the part I have an issue with. "oh, you couldn't understand because you aren't XYZ".



Again, you're twisting it. If you have had an experience BEING TARGETED BECAUSE YOU WERE A MINORITY, then please feel free to share an EFFECTIVE METHOD OF HOW YOU, PERSONALLY dealt with it. Jenna does. That's why she found what he said valuable. Now note, you can be a white male, and be a minority in certain circumstances... so please by all means if you have personal experience do share. So instead of trying to tell me how I'm wrong, you could constructively share information that would help.

Otherwise, you're just trolling and telling folks how they should feel about and deal with these situations with no real personal experience of their perspective.

Sorry, it just carries more weight coming from someone who's been there. That's all, pure and simple. Just like alcoholics stand a better chance of recovery when former alcoholics work with them as opposed to people who do not have that perspective.

Here's the link for ya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

Please note that the above link is an attempt at humour lol, lest you try to come back with arguments about how white folks might have been discriminated against in year 2.

Also, if you want to continue to debate semantics, feel free to PM me, no need to further pollute this thread unless what you're really looking for is the audience. The rest of us want to resolve the issue and further understand all perspectives, not snipe from a fixed position. I'm happy to continue the debate with you from there, or if you're in the neighborhood of Madison, wI, we can do it over a beer Cool
Shedemei Silfar
Miskatonic Mercantile
#602 - 2013-06-14 19:05:51 UTC
Elliavir wrote:
Shedemei Silfar wrote:
... or even AC Darktide.


You, too?

That was my first PvP game. It's where I learned to love free-for-all PvP settings. Ah, the memories.


I know.. me too!

Circle of Arms, way back in the day - 2000-04. Although I did go back last year for a few months for a bit.... they've changed the dynamics enough that it doesn't have the rich clan and political depth it had at one time. But truly.... one of the all time best.
Cat Murdoch
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#603 - 2013-06-14 19:07:34 UTC
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
Selene Nask wrote:
Ace Menda wrote:
Amarra Mandalin wrote:
What if we just had billboards in EVE that say.

WARNING: Real girls play EVE, and yes they have breasts.
Get over it and don't crash your ship when one speaks.
Have a nice day.


I vote for that one.


I'd add. PS: Make your own damn 'sammich'


OMG- YES!

lol! Love it! Definite +1 on that here... Big smile
Elliavir
Miskatonic Mercantile
#604 - 2013-06-14 19:13:56 UTC
Shedemei Silfar wrote:
Elliavir wrote:
Shedemei Silfar wrote:
... or even AC Darktide.


You, too?

That was my first PvP game. It's where I learned to love free-for-all PvP settings. Ah, the memories.


I know.. me too!

Circle of Arms, way back in the day - 2000-04. Although I did go back last year for a few months for a bit.... they've changed the dynamics enough that it doesn't have the rich clan and political depth it had at one time. But truly.... one of the all time best.


CoA, back in the day, too. I remember the death run to Sawato as an untagged newbie, just because it was the closest thing to a haven on Darktide. A haven that was regularly raided, and you better get your newbie butt out there and help... but worth it.
Shedemei Silfar
Miskatonic Mercantile
#605 - 2013-06-14 19:28:34 UTC
Elliavir wrote:
Shedemei Silfar wrote:
Elliavir wrote:
Shedemei Silfar wrote:
... or even AC Darktide.


You, too?

That was my first PvP game. It's where I learned to love free-for-all PvP settings. Ah, the memories.


I know.. me too!

Circle of Arms, way back in the day - 2000-04. Although I did go back last year for a few months for a bit.... they've changed the dynamics enough that it doesn't have the rich clan and political depth it had at one time. But truly.... one of the all time best.


CoA, back in the day, too. I remember the death run to Sawato as an untagged newbie, just because it was the closest thing to a haven on Darktide. A haven that was regularly raided, and you better get your newbie butt out there and help... but worth it.



No way... small world eh? PM me sometime, would love to chat you up about it. I died soooo many times defending Sawato lol
Amarra Mandalin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#606 - 2013-06-14 19:46:31 UTC
Shedemei Silfar wrote:

Also, if you want to continue to debate semantics, feel free to PM me, no need to further pollute this thread unless what you're really looking for is the audience. The rest of us want to resolve the issue and further understand all perspectives, not snipe from a fixed position. I'm happy to continue the debate with you from there, or if you're in the neighborhood of Madison, wI, we can do it over a beer Cool


Just wanted to let people know that ^^ is what it's all about, so please don't feel the need to waste your energy on anything other than what's important to you.

While I can dish it out like I can take it, I chose not to as this thread is not about any one person, myself included.-- and trying to cause problems between players was the last straw for me.

One reason I wanted to talk to Jenn too is that I disagreed with some of what he wrote (and wanted to understand his perspective more) but yet dugg his attitude. I'm glad he responded as I didn't realize the extent of what some guys go through in a typical day -- as some of the aforementioned problems are not mentioned in my circles. (e.g. sexual harassment charge fears).

Anyway, I'm glad people didn't take the reverse race(ism)-baiting and understood what I meant, even if perhaps I could have worded the compliment better.

I'll be off the thread a bit -- I have to kick some guy ass on another game for a few days Pirate-- and just wanted folks to know that so that maybe energies won't be wasted as much. Not that I have any illusions about people hell-bent on doing most anything on these forums.

Otherwise, anyone who has contributed constructively (agree or disagree) to this thread has been appreciated.

Keep improving the EVE Billboard too!



Xeraphi
Perkone
Caldari State
#607 - 2013-06-14 20:37:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
No. Respect is earned, not given. You don't get it by being born, you don't get it by breathing, and you don't get it for having $15 a month to pay and log on.


I'd like the same respect a man gets for just saying "hello" on comms without doing anything worthy of disrespect. Unless you think I earned disrespect by being born female? Because it gets really tired having to defend myself or my gender in almost every fleet within 3 seconds of revealing on comms that I exist. That was not the first incident, I'd just had enough of it that day and it was in fleet chat not comms.

If I did anything worthy of disrespect I'd like to know it straight up instead of people hating on me or my gender to the point it's very uncomfortable to stay... or worse, trying to invite me to their condo in Cali when I don't even know them...

The reason good men need to speak up against this kind of behaviour is that the kind of sick men who try to impress each other with how little they respect women, aren't going to listen to a woman. They were trying to make me uncomfortable or why say that at all with a woman present? They don't seek women's approval. They seek male approval. And the silence gives it to them.

You don't have to idolize women and "white knight" to do what's right in terms of basic decency.

New target lock death animation problem #1 ^ eye strain and pain Temporary workaround found to one of these.

Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#608 - 2013-06-14 21:55:49 UTC
idk ladies...i mean if we are going to try and crusade against every pervert, rude and uncouth neckbeard in the online gaming world then that is a war we are destined to lose, in my opinion. it's just the way it is. even if the genders were equally represented, or even if we as women, were the dominant demographic in online gaming...those types of players would still exist and would still have to be tolerated to some degree. because, as has been covered in this thread already a number of times, anonymity is armor for those types and it always will be. there is simply not much we can do about it.

it's a pretty rare thing that i have to deal with the kind of abuse or hate that some have described in this thread. i'm a pretty tolerant person and i guess i accepted the realities of what online gaming is a long time ago. however, that said, i suppose if i were subjected to as much negativity on as frequent a basis as some have claimed to have suffered, i'd be weary of it too and would look for a solution.
Gabriel Santagalos
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#609 - 2013-06-14 23:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Gabriel Santagalos
Nice threadnaught.

So being male and enjoying Eve makes me a racist, misognyst, idiotic and a pervert. Defending women would make me a "stupid white knight". Not defending them means im in league with the rabid moutbreathing haters.

In all honesty, do you really think this debate, if you can even call it that, will change anything? I had the pleasure to play with women (Mainly in other MMOs,granted) who were tough as nails and commanded respect easily, without resorting to rude "manspeak". There were also some idiotic ones. The same is obviousy true for males. (Surprise!)

I also "like" the notion that Eve has to be changed because its a "Boys club". Id love to try walking into any game that caters to women and demand it be changed to fit my sensibilities more. I would be lucky if they killed me at the spot, because the alternative would be way more unpleasant.
Elliavir
Miskatonic Mercantile
#610 - 2013-06-14 23:19:40 UTC
Gabriel Santagalos wrote:
Nice threadnaught.

So being male and enjoying Eve makes me a racist, misognyst, idiotic and a pervert. Defending women would make me a "stupid white knight". Not defending them means im in league with the rabid moutbreathing haters.

In all honesty, do you really think this debate, if you can even call it that, will change anything? I had the pleasure to play with women (Mainly in other MMOs,granted) who were tough as nails and commanded respect easily, without resorting to rude "manspeak". There were also some idiotic ones. The same is obviousy true for males. (Surprise!)

I also "like" the notion that Eve has to be changed because its a "Boys club". Id love to try walking into any game that caters to women and demand it be changed to fit my sensibilities more. I would be lucky if they killed me at the spot, because the alternative would be way more unpleasant.


Nice straw man argument. Definitely has persuaded *me* that this is a total non-problem and I was utterly misguided to think otherwise. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#611 - 2013-06-14 23:38:43 UTC
Gabriel Santagalos wrote:
Nice threadnaught.

So being male and enjoying Eve makes me a racist, misognyst, idiotic and a pervert.

Nobody said that. Nobody believes that.

Gabriel Santagalos wrote:
I also "like" the notion that Eve has to be changed because its a "Boys club". Id love to try walking into any game that caters to women and demand it be changed to fit my sensibilities more.

You're assuming that EVE is supposed to cater to men.
It isn't.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

S Byerley
The Manhattan Engineer District
#612 - 2013-06-14 23:39:30 UTC
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:
idk ladies...i mean if we are going to try and crusade against every pervert, rude and uncouth neckbeard in the online gaming world


Spend all the time you want trying to assign victims, there's always a reason a particular group of people becomes the target of hatred. Usually, they project an elitist subculture and openly vulgarize everyone else. (your intro is a perfect example)
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#613 - 2013-06-14 23:47:18 UTC
S Byerley wrote:
Eurydia Vespasian wrote:
idk ladies...i mean if we are going to try and crusade against every pervert, rude and uncouth neckbeard in the online gaming world


Spend all the time you want trying to assign victims, there's always a reason a particular group of people becomes the target of hatred. Usually, they project an elitist subculture and openly vulgarize everyone else. (your intro is a perfect example)


i think it was pretty clear there what was meant. the people in question, for the most part, know who they are. don't take it out of context.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#614 - 2013-06-14 23:58:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
I'd like the same respect a man gets for just saying "hello" on comms without doing anything worthy of disrespect. Unless you think I earned disrespect by being born female?



I believe we have a misunderstanding here. Female or male, I do not hand out respect. Hell, I've been in my current corp for months, and the one person I seriously respect is the guy who tries his damnedest to learn how to FC, even though we whelp and die every time. He's doing the grind, and I give props for that at least.


You have done nothing to earn disrespect. But please do not confuse my simply not handing it out, with any intent to disrespect. Respect IMO, isn't a fundamental human right, nor is it a component of basic decency. I can have a lack of respect for a cashier at WalMart, but I can still smile and tell her a joke to try and make her day better. (that joke was, I put my daughter on the conveyor belt and tried to scan her a few times, Simpson's style)

As to this:

Quote:
Again, you're twisting it. If you have had an experience BEING TARGETED BECAUSE YOU WERE A MINORITY, then please feel free to share an EFFECTIVE METHOD OF HOW YOU, PERSONALLY dealt with it. Jenna does. That's why she found what he said valuable. Now note, you can be a white male, and be a minority in certain circumstances... so please by all means if you have personal experience do share. So instead of trying to tell me how I'm wrong, you could constructively share information that would help.



Why give out personal details? I am curious as to why this would be of value. As for myself, I am no stranger to such things, especially given my own ethnicity and birthplace in a particular area. If I recall, though, I already mentioned I lived in Japan on page 25, so that does give some of it away.


That, by the way, is why I took exception to Amarra's comment there. I have encountered such a thing(lived with it for years), but people are far too willing to jump down my throat screaming "sexist!" to notice, or to read anything I've actually said. I find that hypocritical.


Quote:
Also, if you want to continue to debate semantics, feel free to PM me, no need to further pollute this thread unless what you're really looking for is the audience. The rest of us want to resolve the issue and further understand all perspectives, not snipe from a fixed position. I'm happy to continue the debate with you from there, or if you're in the neighborhood of Madison, wI, we can do it over a beer



Nah, happy to stay on the thread. I'm just curious as to why a conversation of this nature has turned into a "Hi, I'm Jim and I'm an alchoholic" style discussion. People shouldn't have some kind of barrier of entry to a discussion in a public forum, least of all having to share a story of being discriminated against. That's just weird.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Gabriel Santagalos
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#615 - 2013-06-15 16:48:15 UTC

Quote:

You're assuming that EVE is supposed to cater to men.
It isn't.


Actually, no. But that was one of the many things that was spewed in this thread, along with "That needs to change, Eve neeeeds women, so make it different!

Admittedly i put up a nice straw man to burn, but imo it wasnt that far from some of the more rabid accusations in this thread. Why does it always have to be "the males" in general who are the supposed problems if its really just a vocal minority of total s***heads? In a truyl equal word, everybody would be jugded solely on his/her/its merits. That would mean that women could be assholes too, which seems to be equaled with mysognysm these days. (See the whole Mintchip thingie..)

But enough rambling for today.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#616 - 2013-06-16 15:43:07 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
EVE doesn't need to change to cater more towards women. Especially considering what most people seem to think that would entail does nothing to address the real issue.

The problem is the players. The players who bombard female players with jokes about making sandwiches, get back to the kitchen, etc. The players who assume that female gamers aren't as competent or as capable of learning the game as most male gamers. The players who think that just because a woman speaks up on comms that automatically means she's an attention whore and not just, you know, another player speaking up on comms. The players who harrass female gamers with continued unwanted sexual advances or hackneyed memes.

Now, I'm generally of the opinion that most subjects are okay to joke about in mixed company (with a few exceptions like **** and sexual assault, genocide, mass murder, spousal or child abuse, infanticide, etc.) but a joke is a joke really only if it's meant with good humor and no ill intentions. When the same tired jokes are repeated focusing on a singular aspect of a person like their sex, or when these jokes are intended in a more derogatory manner, then it starts to border on harassment.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Ariel Dawn
Les Petits Pedestres
Toilet Paper.
#617 - 2013-06-16 17:17:38 UTC
It's odd, EVE by far not an entry level game in general, so it's hard to imagine what it's like for other women who don't have the experience in dealing with anonymous internet jerkoffs. The vast majority of players are perfectly normal people; you don't have to sit quietly and take smack from morons who are attacking your sex (and plenty of the time it's just playful ribbing).

It's not something that's restricted to EVE of course, and there's plenty of women that fit the stereotypes associated with them as well.

CCP can't fix the dynamic that exists between the genders, but they can work on the population disparity so that the morons/louts harassing women will think twice when there's a greater # of women that will call them out for what kind of people they are. EVE needs customization, storytelling, more instances of social interaction, and advertise the game with some of these focuses. Right now it's all about EXPLOSIONS AND CONQUERING AND TAKING CANDY FROM THOSE WEAKER THAN YOU RAAAARGH. It takes a special kind of person to see that you can steal from other players and scam and think to themselves "Yes, that's what I want!"
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#618 - 2013-06-16 17:24:08 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Ariel Dawn wrote:
It takes a special kind of person to see that you can steal from other players and scam and think to themselves "Yes, that's what I want!"

Not really. It's a competitive aspect. Multiplayer games are built on competition and/or cooperation. EVE has both of these in many different forms.

I really don't understand why people who think stealing from others in a video game that explicitly allows and even condones such behavior somehow translates to a predilection for doing so in real life. Certainly if you're a thief in real life you're likely to be a thief in-game, but it doesn't work the other way around.

Anyway, saying something to the effect of "some women don't like all these aspects of the game which are regarded as iconic so we should change the game to suit their tastes" is the wrong approach. Sure more women playing the game would be nice, but they should be women who appreciate what the game actually stands for, not women who joined because wardrobe options were their main incentive. The same goes for any other group.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Ariel Dawn
Les Petits Pedestres
Toilet Paper.
#619 - 2013-06-16 18:01:52 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Ariel Dawn wrote:
It takes a special kind of person to see that you can steal from other players and scam and think to themselves "Yes, that's what I want!"

Not really. It's a competitive aspect. Multiplayer games are built on competition and/or cooperation. EVE has both of these in many different forms.

I really don't understand why people who think stealing from others in a video game that explicitly allows and even condones such behavior somehow translates to a predilection for doing so in real life. Certainly if you're a thief in real life you're likely to be a thief in-game, but it doesn't work the other way around.

Anyway, saying something to the effect of "some women don't like all these aspects of the game which are regarded as iconic so we should change the game to suit their tastes" is the wrong approach. Sure more women playing the game would be nice, but they should be women who appreciate what the game actually stands for, not women who joined because wardrobe options were their main incentive. The same goes for any other group.


The games that allow the stuff that happens in EVE are far and between, people are looking for reasons that it's 96% vs 4% and that's one of the main ones. I never said anything about how one's actions in EVE translates to real life, those are false assumptions.

You're setting up a strawman to knock it down, I never said anything that you're arguing against.

EVE doesn't have to change it's core fundamental that truth-be-told draws mostly men to the table, but introduce and promote elements that show that there's more to it than blowing up the other guy and taking their stuff. Pretty much all the trailers portray this (join a corp, become powerful, take your enemies' stuff!). EVE can be "savage and brutish" while providing a social and immersive experience to players who are less inclined to enjoy ruining other people's days. CCP has shown with Incarna (need more of this, WHERE ARE THE CLOTHES!?), Dust 514, wormholes, exploration, etc. that they are more than capable of expanding the ways one can play EVE. They just need to hit the right one to expand the demographic, and market it well.

The topic is discussing how to get more women in EVE; the issues of harassment subside when the minority reaches parity with the majority. Why some men go off on women is a topic for psychologists (or why women with amazon wish lists take advantage of said men, *cough*).
The Internets
Serious Business Inc
#620 - 2013-06-18 15:18:14 UTC
I love lamp.