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CCP CEO SAYS CSM STRUCTURE MAY CHANGE DUE TO NULL-SEC SLANT

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Tear Miner
Doomheim
#41 - 2011-10-21 18:50:29 UTC
In all seriousness, I think that the CSM should be divided up with a represenative for each area of gameplay like Null/FW/WH, etc. instead of just a group of random players that may have vested interests in only certain parts of the game.

That makes a lot more sense.
Ra Vhim
Black Bag Ops
#42 - 2011-10-21 18:54:17 UTC
"I'm starting to get feedback from players..."

Wait, what? Right...

Suddenly the man gets feedback from the players. I call bullshit on this one.

Translation: "I don't like CSM, they cause trouble. I will have to change that." (Searches on the forum among the never ending whines about everything and find some whines about CSM).

CSM is far from perfect, but it is what we got. The only change needed is that a player only can vote once, not once per account.
The Offerer
Doomheim
#43 - 2011-10-21 18:57:32 UTC
Tear Miner wrote:
In all seriousness, I think that the CSM should be divided up with a represenative for each area of gameplay like Null/FW/WH, etc. instead of just a group of random players that may have vested interests in only certain parts of the game.

That makes a lot more sense.

Not when a specific part of the game is neglected over other parts. If The CSM is primarily 0.0 oriented that means only one thing - the amount of problems with the 0.0 gameplay is by far the biggest and a lot of 0.0 players decided to vote.
John Nucleus
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2011-10-21 18:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: John Nucleus
It's probably been suggested before but how about having a representative for every big part of the game?

For exemple: Null sec, Low sec, High sec, Industry, Mission, Incursion, FW, WH, PI, etc.


Edit: Snap, I really should read the previous posts before posting... Well, great mind thinks alike right?
Dalketh
DRRUSSEL
#45 - 2011-10-21 18:58:36 UTC
Tear Miner wrote:
In all seriousness, I think that the CSM should be divided up with a represenative for each area of gameplay like Null/FW/WH, etc. instead of just a group of random players that may have vested interests in only certain parts of the game.

That makes a lot more sense.


It does, but as one goon pointed out they already have a plan on how to exploit that (mission running alt running under false pretenses). But if a verifiable way to do it can be found sounds interesting.
Josie Starshine
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2011-10-21 19:22:18 UTC
Raeloth Draenor wrote:
Josie Starshine wrote:
Karadion wrote:
Josie Starshine wrote:
Only way to fix the CSM system is to remove it, period. Goonswarm and pets will just endeavor to exploit whatever new CSM structure is introduced. Smoke & mirrors.
And if it is removed. "Only way to fix Eve Online is to remove Goonswarm / ban them all. Goonswarm and pets will just endeavor to exploit whatever shortcomings this game has."

Slippery slope.


Your statement does not invalidate mine though. Goonswarm is a known entity with a known agenda and there is nothing wrong with that.

The problem is when you use the CSM as a means to subvert all of EVE Online to that agenda while 'pretending', as a CSM member, to have EVE Online's best interests at heart .


And you have proof that this is what the 2 Goon CSM members are doing? And of course we also have to accept the totally implausible premise that Mittens and Vile rat are also able to brainwash and control the majority of the CSM into blindly following their agenda?

These threads are starting to become even more rediculous. FFS I'm a "pubbie" as they call it and even I'm getting tired of the rhetoric. If you think you can do a better job, then put up or shut up. Otherwise, please just shut up.


Karadion wrote: "Goonswarm and pets will just endeavor to exploit whatever shortcomings this game has."
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-10-21 20:22:49 UTC
John Nucleus wrote:
It's probably been suggested before but how about having a representative for every big part of the game?

For exemple: Null sec, Low sec, High sec, Industry, Mission, Incursion, FW, WH, PI, etc.


Nope. Why you ask ?

It's pretty simple. Let's say we manage to put Mittani in the nullsec seat. Then the nullsec part of that CSM will be biased toward Goons and friends. I don't know how to explain it because I'm not really english/american, but you know what I meant.

Right now, GSF, PL, Legion of Death, Morsus Mihi, Rooks and Kings and DNS have representatives. It would be even worse if all nullsec space get only one representative.
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#48 - 2011-10-21 20:42:53 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
John Nucleus wrote:
It's probably been suggested before but how about having a representative for every big part of the game?

For exemple: Null sec, Low sec, High sec, Industry, Mission, Incursion, FW, WH, PI, etc.


Nope. Why you ask ?

It's pretty simple. Let's say we manage to put Mittani in the nullsec seat. Then the nullsec part of that CSM will be biased toward Goons and friends. I don't know how to explain it because I'm not really english/american, but you know what I meant.

Right now, GSF, PL, Legion of Death, Morsus Mihi, Rooks and Kings and DNS have representatives. It would be even worse if all nullsec space get only one representative.


I think you just made his point,
Quote:
Then the nullsec part of that CSM will be biased toward Goons and friends
, as in, having a null sec CSM, it's biased towards, well, null sec.
Mai Khumm
172.0.0.1
#49 - 2011-10-21 20:45:24 UTC
Yes, change the CSM.

I really don't feel like playing "Goonswarm Online: Your **** is ours"
T-Jay Charante
Black Sun Industry and Research
#50 - 2011-10-21 20:56:40 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Yes, change the CSM.

I really don't feel like playing "Goonswarm Online: Your **** is ours"


To be honest, I wouldn't care if it was all Goons on the CSM, as long as there was a representative that reflected each play style.
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2011-10-21 21:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: The Mittani
Cidwm wrote:
I wonder what would happen if the CSM did vanish, or the goons only got 1 seat (or none)... wonder how long they would endure without the extra intel and preperations they have been getting from CSM information... of course, can't prove any of this and this is just speculation but ina thread that says soemthing that could upset the goons and Mittani's grasp on eve i would have thought more goons would have posted in the defence on the CSM staying as it is


I don't really care, because the 'null sec slant' is, in practice, a chimera. Some of the most active people in CSM6 aren't necessarily from nullsec- Trebor, Meissa, and Two Step - and I work with them very closely on a daily basis.

Edit: Two step is all giddy about 'hurr wspace is nullsec hurr' but you know what i mean

There's this persistent myth that the CSM is often at each other's throats, or that I'm crushing Trebor under my heel or something. In practice, what's wrong with EVE is obvious and not particularly controversial. There's no 'null vs non-null' divide. There's not really even a divide on CSM6 period; we've been effective precisely because we're united.

People who lost barges and want to spew conspiracy theories have been emailing HIlmar with their tinfoil, obviously enough. Whatever. vOv

~hi~
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-10-21 21:12:03 UTC
its p. gratifying that folks are so terrified of my persuasive abilities though!

~hi~
The Mittani
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2011-10-21 21:20:51 UTC
nerf attractive people with charisma and a modicum of social graces rarrrrrr

~hi~
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#54 - 2011-10-21 21:46:08 UTC
So as a person who has consistently ran for the CSM since CSM II (and won 1 and a half times) I support the CSM. I've seen the good it can do. As for the recent CSM, they didn't really represent where I would like CCP to focus on, but they won fair and square.

In the end what this proves is that largely the a big part of the population in Eve either has no interest in the CSM, doesn't believe the CSM has any affect or unconvinced there is any benefit from participating in the outside Eve "Eve" elements, like the CSM, the forums or other RL aspects of Eve.

The last CSM may have been a tipping point, more of the "little guys" as I like to call them might try and show some interest, CCP may have seen how a CSM too focused on the end game could be bad and changes will occur but I expect that is optimism on my part.

Even if the "little guy" did wake up it would still be an exersise in "herding cats" to get alignment on a single candidate.

So as the saying goes "Eve" gets the goverment they deserve. I don't mean that to be harsh to folks that didn't vote other folks in, but unless something changes the large power blocks will dominate the CSM. Is that bad, good, neither? I think it just "is".

As for complaints about the goons in the CSM, why wouldn't you expect them to be a major part of the CSM? They are a huge part of Eve. And everything they do is a legitimate part of the sandbox CCP built that we all celebrate every time we log in. In the end every time you renew your subscription in Eve you are saying you believe that spending time in this sandbox is better than not.

"You have seen the enemy and he is you!"

I'm a software engineer and although I have great faith in the future of AI I have no hope there is a way anytime soon to create a game that could selectively detect and prevent asshatery. Either you make everything possible and you get Eve with all its "good" and "BAD" behaviing players or you start to build social engineering into the game mechanics and you change your sandbox into a slide surrounded by rubber padding and pillows.

Tada O was briefly in the goons, it wasn't a good fit because althought we loved the freedom and sense of fun of the goons we had too many "PC" members that refused to tolerate the manner in which freedom can sometimes manifest.

So I can't say I agree these days with most of what the goons seem to be doing but I also don't see how you would change Eve to stop that and not fundementally ruin the game in other ways. As to whether the goons in the CSM is a good or bad thing, I would say its just one more part of the experience CCP created.

Issler
Skunk Gracklaw
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2011-10-21 21:46:24 UTC
Tear Miner wrote:
In all seriousness, I think that the CSM should be divided up with a represenative for each area of gameplay like Null/FW/WH, etc. instead of just a group of random players that may have vested interests in only certain parts of the game.

That makes a lot more sense.

So instead of some players who may have a vested interest in certain parts of the game you want each member to have a vested interest in a certain part of the game. You want to return to the old CSMs where absolutely nothing got accomplished?
Rer Eirikr
The Scope
#56 - 2011-10-21 22:08:25 UTC
The current CSM's format should stay the way it is because they actually focus on certain sections of EVE. By doing so they can actually get stuff done and effectively change EVE for the better.

If people want the CSM to focus in other areas, then find a candidate and actually do the legwork to get said person elected.

Don't change the CSM's format, just change who gets elected. Force a change on your own behalf, not CCP's.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2011-10-21 22:20:11 UTC
T-Jay Charante wrote:

I think you just made his point,
Quote:
Then the nullsec part of that CSM will be biased toward Goons and friends
, as in, having a null sec CSM, it's biased towards, well, null sec.


I actually mean that if the nullsec CSM is a GSF guy, other entities in nullsec won't be represented. Which is just as bad as the current situation (Even if I don't think it's THAT bad considering all the things CCP is working on right now, you know, spaceship related stuff that no one care about ?).
The Offerer
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-10-21 23:42:15 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
nerf attractive people with charisma and a modicum of social graces rarrrrrr

Why nerf Mintchip?Straight
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-10-22 02:05:27 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
Cidwm wrote:
I wonder what would happen if the CSM did vanish, or the goons only got 1 seat (or none)... wonder how long they would endure without the extra intel and preperations they have been getting from CSM information... of course, can't prove any of this and this is just speculation but ina thread that says soemthing that could upset the goons and Mittani's grasp on eve i would have thought more goons would have posted in the defence on the CSM staying as it is


I don't really care, because the 'null sec slant' is, in practice, a chimera. Some of the most active people in CSM6 aren't necessarily from nullsec- Trebor, Meissa, and Two Step - and I work with them very closely on a daily basis.

Edit: Two step is all giddy about 'hurr wspace is nullsec hurr' but you know what i mean

There's this persistent myth that the CSM is often at each other's throats, or that I'm crushing Trebor under my heel or something. In practice, what's wrong with EVE is obvious and not particularly controversial. There's no 'null vs non-null' divide. There's not really even a divide on CSM6 period; we've been effective precisely because we're united.

People who lost barges and want to spew conspiracy theories have been emailing HIlmar with their tinfoil, obviously enough. Whatever. vOv



At some point you need to stop talking. I know, I know. You enjoy hearing yourself speak. Who doesn't? But really, you're losing touch with your own self.

Wasn't the CSM6 that put w-space grav nerfs on the table?

Wasn't it your own corp that attacked said barges?

Shall I continue?

As for CSM being at each other's throats being a popular myth, I'll disagree. I think the popular perception is that everyone in the CSM has their nose in each other's arse forming a nice big circle while inhaling the aroma deeply. There's nothing theoretical about the null slant coming from CSM or Goon's own actions of late under your leadership.

I look forward to any change CCP brings about to the structure and makeup of future CSMs.

Don't ban me, bro!
Swearte Widfarend
Ever Vigilant Fountain Defenders
#60 - 2011-10-22 02:33:05 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
Cidwm wrote:
I wonder what would happen if the CSM did vanish, or the goons only got 1 seat (or none)... wonder how long they would endure without the extra intel and preperations they have been getting from CSM information... of course, can't prove any of this and this is just speculation but ina thread that says soemthing that could upset the goons and Mittani's grasp on eve i would have thought more goons would have posted in the defence on the CSM staying as it is


I don't really care, because the 'null sec slant' is, in practice, a chimera. Some of the most active people in CSM6 aren't necessarily from nullsec- Trebor, Meissa, and Two Step - and I work with them very closely on a daily basis.

Edit: Two step is all giddy about 'hurr wspace is nullsec hurr' but you know what i mean

There's this persistent myth that the CSM is often at each other's throats, or that I'm crushing Trebor under my heel or something. In practice, what's wrong with EVE is obvious and not particularly controversial. There's no 'null vs non-null' divide. There's not really even a divide on CSM6 period; we've been effective precisely because we're united.

People who lost barges and want to spew conspiracy theories have been emailing HIlmar with their tinfoil, obviously enough. Whatever. vOv



At some point you need to stop talking. I know, I know. You enjoy hearing yourself speak. Who doesn't? But really, you're losing touch with your own self.

Wasn't the CSM6 that put w-space grav nerfs on the table?

Wasn't it your own corp that attacked said barges?

Shall I continue?

As for CSM being at each other's throats being a popular myth, I'll disagree. I think the popular perception is that everyone in the CSM has their nose in each other's arse forming a nice big circle while inhaling the aroma deeply. There's nothing theoretical about the null slant coming from CSM or Goon's own actions of late under your leadership.

I look forward to any change CCP brings about to the structure and makeup of future CSMs.



Hey dumbass. Yes you Mr Kidd the cheap posting alt. Wake up.

First of all - the CSM has been pushing for changes to improve EVE as a game. And maybe they are focusing on nullsec because (other than losec) it's the most broken thing in the game - and easier to fix than losec. In case you hadn't noticed, HiSec got all sorts of spit polish with Incursions, Mission restructuring, and the Noctis. Nullsec lost the ability to realistically support the large number of players who actually should live and play there, and has become a mindless grind for sov and a struggle to have fun with Supercapitals Online. Nullsec needs attention more than your stupid Level 4 mission hub.

Second of all, just because you run Gallente POSses, or fly Gallente Caps, has nothing to do with the CSM. The fact that Goonswarm is (again) griefing empire babies is like a leap year. It comes around every so often, and then it moves on. Did you complain about Hulkageddon too? Because really, the difference is that Goons have numbers and organization, and have targeted a very specific weakness. Cry some more. Or, don't because last time they were just blowing up POSses, rather than changing the cost of running them.

Me, I just put the carrier in the station and I'm flying around in smaller ships - you know what? It's more fun and more challenging.

If HIllmar is going to change the CSM because of anything, it's because (even though he's dapper) Mittens has been pushing, hard, to bring this game back from the brink, and Hillmar was the one leading it there before. Nobody likes the guy who points out their mistakes - and they really don't like the guy who does it in front of everyone (sorry Mittens, that's you). I'd bet that even you will benefit from the "winter expansion" features - and the CSM - including The Mittani and Vile Rat - have been championing that over miniskirts and snakeskin boots.

Democracy is only as good as the despot managing the voting booth.