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tech I hybrid ammo boost

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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-06-13 13:41:57 UTC
The Djego wrote:
The history of hybrids, gallente and caldari is a history full of misunderstandings.

The problem with hybrids is scaling and proper use of ship bonuses to modify weapon behaviour for different propose on different hulls(gallente/caldari). The current state of hybrids is a endless sting of bad design decisions since 2008, where blasters are bad instead of awesome at point blank, players think blasters are like acs(while they actually did mimic lasers, utilizing ammo and web/sig dynamics to massively outdo them at limited range windows or optimal bonuses to mimic them at less range with better tracking), caldari receive damage bonuses instead making the optimal bonuses more useful and gallente hulls get buffed in fitting to a point where everything can be fitted without any effort. This is the result of years of bad design and band aids, because nobody addresses the core flaws of the weapon system and the idea behind the hulls.

- a blaster fitted gallente hull is terrible at point blank(full stop) it can not dictate range and utilize peak dps(because of the weaker web and scrams). A effective blaster ship, bigger than a frig needs a stronger web or being scram immune(mwd off effect, still pointed), making it able to dictate range at point blank even in X vs 1 engagements(since this is what you get in a blaster ship that comes with the "do or die" penalty if you engage at close range)
- a blaster fitted caldari hull is terrible, because the bonus doesn't scale well enough with the weapon to provide a more effective and different combat window than gallente and there is no real fitting concept, caldari hulls should be able to use the big blasters + tank with her lower effective turret count while forcing gallente to glass cannon + gank or smaller blasters + tank, by this you migrate the dps/optimal situation, however that only works with higher optimal bonuses on caldari hulls and the ability to do full dps with gallente hulls at point blank
- while the new mega is designed around a heavy tank and high rail dps, gallente hulls in general lack tracking with rails(rails got not enough tracking to be a good nano kite weapon, this is why medium rails suck, full stop)
- caldari hulls got not enough damage with rails outside of large rails(because they have 8 effective turrets here and can use high damage ammos at nearly every useful combat range). The problem of the ferox/moa is that they lack effective turrets to archive reasonable dps with rails. Eagle is just bad.

Hybrids are bad, because hybrid design is bad and it will only get better the day when people stop throwing bad ideas on it. Think about why gallente where useful at point blank, not because of a few more EHP and dps that they should not need to begin with, but because sig/web mechanics made them hit like a truck at this range, why a optimal bonus could be just as good but different compared to a damage bonus and why ccp put a falloff bonus on some gallente hulls(the reason for this was to not outdo caldari hulls for sniping, it is not good, it is terrible and doesn't suit a weapon that is used at point blank or long range, in both cases at optimal, not in falloff).



Mostly agree with this. The real issue of hybrids is that they badly designed from the beginning for the ships they're intended to be used with.

Shield fitting Megathrons and Hyperions every day to compensate the weapon system weaknesses and bad thinking on top of a terrible active tanking system on Gallente hulls. We can also talk about Serpentis hulls shield fitted because they become dps monsters and actually fun to use.

On paper&spreadsheets make them look really awesome, in reality let's pick a simple case: I'm sniping frigs at 50km+, should I pick med rails and what fit will I end with and doing what?

This will end bad with close to no kills but if instead I pick 720's while still having similar DPS I will not have the same ALPHA at all, and whatever people can blahblah about, Alpha is superior to DPS all day long because no regular long range combat lasts more than a couple seconds and hybrids are ONLY EFFECTIVE after several rounds shooting at the same target applying full dps which doesn't happen that much.

While Rails are quite good for pve in pvp they're plain bad, Rokhs and nagas work with when you bring numbers and mostly because they can fit a huge tank, same idea than Draks or Hamracals: enough DPS (read weak) but good tank
Nonetheless I'll take 10 1400 arty maelstroms over 10 rokhs everyday., the alpha you get out of those 10 maelstroms is simply stupid as hell.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#22 - 2013-06-14 20:55:44 UTC
I think the numbers might need some looking at, but I really like the concept!

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#23 - 2013-06-14 21:08:22 UTC
Burseg Sardaukar wrote:
I think the numbers might need some looking at, but I really like the concept!


i do too the number need to fixed and adjusted.. but the concept is more what i am going for.

complexity is always a welcome thing for eve and for pvp in general.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-07-29 23:39:33 UTC
i like this idea
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-07-30 06:31:21 UTC
Ammo from antimatter to lead is mostly fine. Longer range amid can be a poor choice compared to Null less so with Spike because of its tracking penalty.

Only change I would like is a tracking bonus on longer range ammo say 25% decreasing to zero at lead.

This would give a high tracking low DPS alternative to Spike and Null.
Whitehound
#26 - 2013-07-30 06:40:19 UTC
fukier wrote:
i like this idea

It died with the thread. No need to necro it. This is also not Features and Ideas Discussion. Go there and check the stickies. We may be getting a boost in a different way with changes to medium turrets.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Phaade
Know-Nothings
Negative Feedback
#27 - 2013-07-30 19:39:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
DeLindsay wrote:
As much as I'd love the ability to have different damage types with Hybrid's, the entire point of why we don't is we have the highest damage weapons. Yes, Arty's are higher Alpha, Torps have farther Range and everyone else gets different ammo types but really who cares. Blasters simply melt face, have higher tracking to apply that dmg better, and our ammo tends to be of the cheapest, next to Proj rounds.

Personally I think there is too much of a selection of ammo for Hybrid. I'd be much better with lowest range - AM, (1-2) mid ranged - Thorium/Lead, and longest range - Iron. That'd streamline it a little and make it less confusing for newer players.



I agree with a lot of what you are saying, however I really like the idea of optimal / falloff range being different based on ammo. Gallente would use more falloff, Caldair (per their bonuses) would use more optimal. Could be cool.

Honestly, I just wish spike was better. Friggin garbage. Javelin 75% optimal range reduction where the ship gives 50% optimal is, well, ridiculous.
ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#28 - 2013-07-30 22:36:16 UTC
I've removed an off topic post. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2013-07-31 09:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Phaade wrote:
[quote=DeLindsay]Honestly, I just wish spike was better. Friggin garbage. Javelin 75% optimal range reduction where the ship gives 50% optimal is, well, ridiculous.


Javelin and depending how you can fit your ship is another of those hybrid ammo you're making 20% more dmg in fall off than AM in opti and has a huge boost to tracking on megas for example, enough to track frigs orbiting at 25/30 and one shot them.
Thing is that unless you're shooting structures or bring some rounds just in case when jumping gates, faction AM is overall the best ammo to carry.

Spike needs a dmg boost and some fall off reduction, you can throw the stupid ammo at over 340km but can't target above 250 Roll

As said above med hybrids are getting a huge boost to dmg but at the same time an over ridiculous nerf to tracking, Spike will not be an option to shoot with imho and iron/iridium such ridiculous dmg at greatest distances there's no point on fiting rails on Deimos but bring a Thorax instead.

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Muad 'dib
State War Academy
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-07-31 11:02:36 UTC
Scrap all the medium ammos and start again.

why do we have 7 choices when only 2/3 are ever used?

Just delete the crap ones and tweak the good ones!

Also leave null alone.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-07-31 12:45:49 UTC
DeLindsay wrote:
and our ammo tends to be of the cheapest, next to Proj rounds.


Oh, and next to laser shots... so basically, what you are saying is that its the most expensive turret ammo...

There's talk here of splitting T1 ammo into two types, blaster and rail charges - I say the same needs to happen to projectiles.

Its ridiculous that its cheaper to use T2 arty ammo than it is to use T2 beam crystals (about the same cost per shot, arty does more damage per shot/ shoots less often).


The T1 ammo is all very similar in terms of effectiveness for short vs long range weapons relative to T2.


Short range, decreasing damage, increasing range
IN Multi -> Scorch : situational: IN gamma or X ray for slightly increased tracking and same/a bit higher DPS
CN/FN AM -> Null : situational, FN/CN Plutonium or Uranium for slightly increased tracking and same/a bit higher DPS
RF Fusion/EMP/PhasedP -> barrage RF DU/Titanium sabot : Situational: RF DU or Titanium Sabot for tracking

Long Range:
Lasers:
Gleam-> Faction Multi-> Standard -> Aurora : Situationally use IN IR for better tracking at ranges just beyond standard's
Rails, same story here, except with spike/javelin, and AM through Lead

But more commonly:
Gleam -> Multi -> Xray -> Aurora
Spike -> AM-> Uranium -> Javelin

Projectiles:
Quake, Fusion/EMP/PP -> Titanium/DU -> Tremor


Blasters can get a significant part of their range from optimal (as seen on blaster rokhs), much more so than autos - although they don't suffer nearly as much as lasers.
This means they get an effectively reduced range in return for greater damage.

Autos on the other hand... the changes to optimal are irrelevant, projectile ammo needs falloff penalties.
We don't need a Hybrid ammo buff, they need to nerf projectiles, split them into auto and arty types, autos getting falloff penalties.
- Or give both falloff and optimal penalties to all ammo types (tweak gun stats accordingly)
Phaade
Know-Nothings
Negative Feedback
#32 - 2013-07-31 21:32:48 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Phaade wrote:
[quote=DeLindsay]Honestly, I just wish spike was better. Friggin garbage. Javelin 75% optimal range reduction where the ship gives 50% optimal is, well, ridiculous.


Javelin and depending how you can fit your ship is another of those hybrid ammo you're making 20% more dmg in fall off than AM in opti and has a huge boost to tracking on megas for example, enough to track frigs orbiting at 25/30 and one shot them.
Thing is that unless you're shooting structures or bring some rounds just in case when jumping gates, faction AM is overall the best ammo to carry.

Spike needs a dmg boost and some fall off reduction, you can throw the stupid ammo at over 340km but can't target above 250 Roll

As said above med hybrids are getting a huge boost to dmg but at the same time an over ridiculous nerf to tracking, Spike will not be an option to shoot with imho and iron/iridium such ridiculous dmg at greatest distances there's no point on fiting rails on Deimos but bring a Thorax instead.



I admit Javelin can fill a niche, however it's typically better to use AM on with Caldari ships because they have optimal bonuses. Javelin could reduce falloff by 100% and optimal by 25-50% while increasing tracking, would be more useful.

Spike needs a lower tracking penalty or significantly more damage. The extreme ranges are well and good, but a frigate can tank an eagle with spike and 250's ffs.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-07-31 21:39:17 UTC
Make them omni damage

/ducks



No seriously, has to be some upside to ammo AND cap usage...
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-08-01 07:01:23 UTC
especially when the long range variants consume more ammo than the projectiles, so you pay more in both ammo and cap to have less alpha and less damage types,
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#35 - 2013-08-01 07:43:17 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
DeLindsay wrote:
and our ammo tends to be of the cheapest, next to Proj rounds.

Oh, and next to laser shots... so basically, what you are saying is that its the most expensive turret ammo...

Why do so many people get caught up on no ammo usage for lasers? I have to load far more ISK worth of crystals into my laser ships than I have to load ammo into any other ship, and if I whelp it it's dead and my entire investment is gone, regardless of damage on the crystals. Or do people just assume that you never lose a crystal before it's fully broken? Or that people only use cheapo T1 crystals?


Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Make them omni damage

/ducks



No seriously, has to be some upside to ammo AND cap usage...

You do get advantages. More DPS (blasters) and more tracking (blasters) and we'll see how rails do after the patch. Want to compare that to lasers that use substantially more capacitor and really only have optimal range as an advantage? Or is someone (again) going to pretend that you don't use ammo in laser ships? As a solo/small gang PvPer, my crystals rarely get past 10% damage. I'm literally carrying 90% more ammo than I could possibly use in almost every scenario. I might agree if you were forced to completely fill your cargohold with your hybrid/projectile ammo every time you undocked... but you don't.


I really don't get why people get caught up on lasers not needing ammo. It just baffles me. I usually only undock with a couple reloads in my ships, unless I'm expecting something different or expect I'll need more (roam). Sometimes I'm actually losing half the ships value in crystals!
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-08-05 11:25:50 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
DeLindsay wrote:
and our ammo tends to be of the cheapest, next to Proj rounds.

Oh, and next to laser shots... so basically, what you are saying is that its the most expensive turret ammo...

Why do so many people get caught up on no ammo usage for lasers? I have to load far more ISK worth of crystals into my laser ships than I have to load ammo into any other ship, and if I whelp it it's dead and my entire investment is gone, regardless of damage on the crystals. Or do people just assume that you never lose a crystal before it's fully broken? Or that people only use cheapo T1 crystals?


I never said that they have no ammo usage, look at my whole quote, I've underlined the part you seem to have missed:

Quote:
Oh, and next to laser shots... so basically, what you are saying is that its the most expensive turret ammo...

There's talk here of splitting T1 ammo into two types, blaster and rail charges - I say the same needs to happen to projectiles.

Its ridiculous that its cheaper to use T2 arty ammo than it is to use T2 beam crystals (about the same cost per shot, arty does more damage per shot/ shoots less often).


Last I checked, a T2 gleam crystal was going for roughly 1.5 million, you get roughly 1000 shots from it: 1,500 ISK/shot
Then I checked the T2 quake ammo... 1,500 isk/shot, more or less.... same cost per shot, lasers should twice as often for half the damage.... T2 arties are significantly cheaper to use with T2 ammo than T2 beams.

Although, I did neglect to factor in the cost of losing a ship, as you can't load 1/10th of a crystal onto your ship, but you can easily load 200 rounds of T2 instead of ~1000 or 800 rounds of faction instead of 4000.

As to your comment in response to someone else:
Quote:
You do get advantages. More DPS (blasters) and more tracking (blasters)


Thats not really the point. Thats balancing among weapon stats.
All the weapons have different optimal/falloff/rof/alpha/tracking etc.
You could give them all capless ammo charges like projectiles, and that balance would be maintained.
The high damage of blasters isn't balanced by its cap use, its balanced by its short range.
The high range of 425mms isn't balanced by cap use either, its balanced by lackluster Alpha, DPS, and tracking.... and so on
Just as the high falloff and tracking of autos isn't balanced by cap use.

I don't think anyone would start calling hybrids OPd if they used no cap at all, just like projectiles.
Heck, even lasers would be pretty well balanced if they were capless and had to load ammo charges.

In terms of combat effectiveness in the absence of cap war, they're all pretty much equal. With laser and hybrid boats having an added vulnerability for no good reason.

I think the ammo attributes should be balanced separately of those concerns.
Projectile magazines should be such that there will be a good chance of reloads in combat.

The near instant reload of lasers would be balanced by the cap use. The ability to quickly go from faction multi, to scorch, is powerful, and that is why one might be willing to spend cap.

Hybrids, less cap, but reload faster.

Projectiles, with their selectable damage type, still seem to have more pro's than their only con (reloads).
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-08-05 13:27:18 UTC
To mare wrote:


buffing the ammo to make railguns better would make blaster who use the same ammo OP
if railgun need a boost buff the weapon not the ammo



Blasters OP? I'll try to remember that the next time I have to blow 800 boosters to keep the guns going.....not to mention the 10km range on medium blasters, would take a LOT to make a system that has to fight in web range op.

The issue with hybrid ammo is that for blasters you use faction AM......Null period, there isn't enough range using the long/mid to justify the loss in damage.

With rails you have the opposite there EIGHT separate range bands EIGHT!, which is more than a little rediculous when the over lap in damage means that each successive band is all of 10-15k depending on support mods (obviously it more if you are running dual range scripted TEs)

and even then you carry the two jav, spike faction AM, uranium or thorium and you are done. Spike effectively takes up everything over the lower mid range ammos because well its spike.
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