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Remote Repairing: Why no risk PVP is ruining Warfare
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-06-01 14:25:50 UTC
Rroff wrote:
Fought hydra a few times, sometimes wins, sometimes losses, some of the most memorable fights I've been in have been against hydra due to their willingness to take a fight with a decently thought out setup rather than sticking with cookie cutter setups. How we'd have done in that particular instance I wouldn't want to call.



Yeah these dudes are really good guys to fight, rarely seen them get totally defeated and the fight is really intense.
They know when to pick a fight or not which is the whole point of a good FC, if odds are bad not take your dudes to certain dead unless they're willing to try the fight.

Engaged them solo several times like a mad window licker, once with my double XL ASB Sleip took on the entire 15man gang of cynas/daredevils with logis thinking I could take at least one or two of them but nah, not a single, neither did them took me out, jumped to the other side of the gate and then...4 sniping oracles light me up Lol was really fun against hydra not that much being light up by 4 tachyon crap...

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#22 - 2013-06-01 14:30:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
Syrias Bizniz wrote:

4 - Energy Neutralizing! It takes roughly 3 Heavy Energy Neutralizers to cap-out a single cruiser hull, disabling their reps, active tanking modules, ECCM modules, propmod, Energy Transfer and everything else it wants to do with it's precious capacitor! Coordinate this well and crush their capchains! Some wellplaced neuting-boats can greatly reduce a whole logistics fleet ability to provide reps, enabling your dps ships to burn through targets with ease.


Problem is people are looking for easy hard counters - don't want to go to the bother of a setup that counters it through a mixture of constant back and forth disruption, good FCing and player skill.

EDIT: Also not trying to make out I'm some pro-PVPer my abilities there are distinctly average, I can however follow FC orders and know the value of a good fleet setup and seen what the efforts some people have gone to in developing tactics to deal with these kind of things can do - I don't really want to hand out on a plate tactics that someone else has gone to a lot of effort to come up with tho.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#23 - 2013-06-01 14:38:13 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
DeLindsay wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Or alternatively start fitting out your gangs with counters to logistics platforms... theres loads missing from your list and even some of those can be made to work effectively but people rarely bother bringing them to fights hence stalemates.

RR isn't the problem...


EDIT: Don't want to make it easy for people but for example even 3 remote sensor damps from an unbonused ship will force T2 logistics into neut range or stop it being able to rep from range. Combine with some ecm and additional scan res damping and that gives you loads of chances to break a hostile gang's logistics.
easy if you know this special tactic cuz im a pvp god how could you all be so stupid


countering a trio of augorors is no easy feat and by no means 'barely cap stable' standard augoror fit is in excess of 120 cap a second. making you have to bring 2 ashimmus with 7 medium neuts to take our their cap stability. so even if you have 2 ashimmus, and enough jam strenght for 164 sensor strength augorors, and the augorors are less than 10km because damps are free with cereal now. what is this easy counter. besides having a bigger blob.




Don't know what *exactly* you're trying to say, but:

Bringing 3/2 Augorors is - in my humble opinion - totally senseless, because you're cluttering up your logi-pilots with capchains left and right, when they could all just go for Exequrors, have the same reppower and not that much of a hazzle. They're also more versatile unless you really want to start some serious capacitor games that aren't limited to standard logi-capchain.

Having an excess of 120 cap/s doesn't mean anything, it's not like they get 120 capacitor every second. They get ~400 capacitor every 5 seconds per energy transfer. As there is Alpha in terms of Maelstroms volleying for 12k damage, there's also Alpha in neuting. Small and (unbonused) medium neuts will have only small effect and maybe shut down one of the 3-4 reps a ship has. Throwing in some Heavy Neuts to actually Alpha-Cap a ship and force it to turn off all it's modules while cycling this through their fleet puts a lot of stress onto them, forcing them to do mistakes, drop reps on targets, don't get locks on targets in time etc etc.

Also, there is no single ewar to negate logistics. It's the combination which will render them helpless.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#24 - 2013-06-01 15:34:30 UTC
Can't follow on the issues to remote repairing. It is incrdibly strong, but at the same time, it is a ship not doing anything besides that. It's just those situations :)

Depending on the slotlayout (like 5-1 large for big fights, or 4-2 for small neut-feeding setups) for capchain-logi, constant rep output can be good, isn't extreme though without legion/tengu. A pair of unlinked guardians would die to 2 brutix managing to get on top of those.

And depending on the size of a fleet (range dampening for small gangs, lockspeed dampening for larger fights and burn down primaries for example), a logigang is extremely vulnerable to EWAR.

Yet alone the intention of many FCs to go with 'light logi' anyways, supporting this by resilent setups, should indicate that logistics is only a small part of a fleet. And in the case of someone blobbing you with logi, see the example of 2XLASB Sleip above. Surviving many cynas+daredevils, dying to a few scrubs in huehue-oracles.
Sakkar Arenith
Kenmei Corporation
#25 - 2013-06-01 15:35:32 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
This whole discussion reminds me of what went down before the nano-nerf.


Exactly!

"The Nanophoon isnt op, all you need is an arazu, two rapiers and two long range dps ships to counter it, noob, L2P..."


Similarly:

"Remote Reps arent op all you need is one Damp cruiser, one ecm boat, neuts, dps, a logi of your own, and a stupid counterpart, to beat it, L2P newb!...."


If you dont understand that the remote repping has become just as imba as nano used to be, you really have no idea what youre talking about.

The fact that you need 3 seperate ships + logi of your own to take down a logi, should be obvious enough for everyone... but the derp is strong in the forums.

But, nah, its totally balanced, we just dont know the sekrit handzsh4k3 to defeat them........


Nerf incoming!
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#26 - 2013-06-01 15:41:10 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
DeLindsay wrote:
Rroff wrote:
Or alternatively start fitting out your gangs with counters to logistics platforms... theres loads missing from your list and even some of those can be made to work effectively but people rarely bother bringing them to fights hence stalemates.

RR isn't the problem...


EDIT: Don't want to make it easy for people but for example even 3 remote sensor damps from an unbonused ship will force T2 logistics into neut range or stop it being able to rep from range. Combine with some ecm and additional scan res damping and that gives you loads of chances to break a hostile gang's logistics.
easy if you know this special tactic cuz im a pvp god how could you all be so stupid


countering a trio of augorors is no easy feat and by no means 'barely cap stable' standard augoror fit is in excess of 120 cap a second. making you have to bring 2 ashimmus with 7 medium neuts to take our their cap stability. so even if you have 2 ashimmus, and enough jam strenght for 164 sensor strength augorors, and the augorors are less than 10km because damps are free with cereal now. what is this easy counter. besides having a bigger blob.




Don't know what *exactly* you're trying to say, but:

Bringing 3/2 Augorors is - in my humble opinion - totally senseless, because you're cluttering up your logi-pilots with capchains left and right, when they could all just go for Exequrors, have the same reppower and not that much of a hazzle. They're also more versatile unless you really want to start some serious capacitor games that aren't limited to standard logi-capchain.

Having an excess of 120 cap/s doesn't mean anything, it's not like they get 120 capacitor every second. They get ~400 capacitor every 5 seconds per energy transfer. As there is Alpha in terms of Maelstroms volleying for 12k damage, there's also Alpha in neuting. Small and (unbonused) medium neuts will have only small effect and maybe shut down one of the 3-4 reps a ship has. Throwing in some Heavy Neuts to actually Alpha-Cap a ship and force it to turn off all it's modules while cycling this through their fleet puts a lot of stress onto them, forcing them to do mistakes, drop reps on targets, don't get locks on targets in time etc etc.

Also, there is no single ewar to negate logistics. It's the combination which will render them helpless.


thats why nobody uses 3/2 augorors anymore everybody uses the 4/1 augoror with LARGE energy trans. which is bassicaly immune to cap warfare. unless you had i already stated 2 ashimmus. fine since you dont wanna be bothered with math get on eve and try to break a 4/1 augoror with 1 ashimmu. you cant and you wont.

as for heavy neuts. our here in pvp land people use this thing called medium plexs where ships that use heavy neuts arnt allowed. even if you could alpha an augorors cap. all it takes is litterly 1 cycle from 1 other augorors large energy trans and your back up to half cap instantly. and that cycle time is WAY faster than heavy neuts.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#27 - 2013-06-01 16:35:08 UTC
Sakkar Arenith wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
This whole discussion reminds me of what went down before the nano-nerf.


Exactly!

"The Nanophoon isnt op, all you need is an arazu, two rapiers and two long range dps ships to counter it, noob, L2P..."


Similarly:

"Remote Reps arent op all you need is one Damp cruiser, one ecm boat, neuts, dps, a logi of your own, and a stupid counterpart, to beat it, L2P newb!...."


If you dont understand that the remote repping has become just as imba as nano used to be, you really have no idea what youre talking about.

The fact that you need 3 seperate ships + logi of your own to take down a logi, should be obvious enough for everyone... but the derp is strong in the forums.

But, nah, its totally balanced, we just dont know the sekrit handzsh4k3 to defeat them........


Nerf incoming!



Except for the part where you're usually in a fleet environment already when encountering logi. In which case you either went for a dps only roam, maybe with logi on your side too, and then you shouldn't engage logi-heavy gangs unless you're really dps-heavy, or you brought some utility stuff with you, because you're beyond F1.




To the Large XFer aug:

Yes, i know it exists, and i also know that it has some major fitting issues and is very light on the EHP side. Unless, ofc, you're going for the Small RR Augoror, which will then be as efficient as a 3/2 aug again. And for that you wouldn't need a Large Xfer anyways cause you're already so cap-feeded that you'd be dropping EHP if you went for the large instead of medium xfer.

I also know the fluffyhappy land of factional warfare and medium plexes, and i have to admit, if you want to fight inside of a medium, it will be hard to bring heavy neuts. It's also a problem with sliding that you can't really force a fight in front of the plex. But to be honest, that's more of a slide-problem here. It's a good mechanic when you're using it, and it's a bad one when your enemy is.

Also, tell Mnemic or whoever is running your fleet to get Vexors, ... he should have a mail lying around somewhere 2 or 3 months old. Might also help breaking augorors.
And i'm also very pleased that Amarr militia is over the 3/2 aug, cause it was terrible and i never understood why he (mnem) wanted us in those things.
Mathias Orsen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-06-01 16:36:10 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Try splitting your DPS among several targets. If they have 3 logis and you are firing at 4 targets, they can't rep everybody. Make sure your 4 targets include the 3 logis



Actually, 1 logi can rep 4 targets. Splitting DPS just means the logi get to split reps and if the DPS isn't high enough, one logi can easily maintain 10 targets.

Logi is the sole reason Solo PVP is completely impracticle. Even more so, the reason empire war dec corps/alliances are unstoppable. Merc corps fly around with nuetral logistics. Logistics win every time.
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#29 - 2013-06-01 16:40:43 UTC
Mathias Orsen wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Try splitting your DPS among several targets. If they have 3 logis and you are firing at 4 targets, they can't rep everybody. Make sure your 4 targets include the 3 logis



Actually, 1 logi can rep 4 targets. Splitting DPS just means the logi get to split reps and if the DPS isn't high enough, one logi can easily maintain 10 targets.

Logi is the sole reason Solo PVP is completely impracticle. Even more so, the reason empire war dec corps/alliances are unstoppable. Merc corps fly around with nuetral logistics. Logistics win every time.



Neutral logistics is a totally different (and laughable) topic. I think i should start a corp with the sole purpose of throwing out-of-war blackbirds and celestises around and **** up everyone who relies on neutral logi.

To the splitted dps, yes, it's kinda futile.
Zoar Arbaz
Amarr Reclaiming Conglomerate
#30 - 2013-06-03 09:38:11 UTC
Agreed with OP.

Logi ships make eve way too easy
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
#31 - 2013-06-03 10:08:56 UTC
two 5 damp arazus will **** up another gangs logi :)

bring em in close where you can get your utility neuts to stress them. Once there in close switch to target speed damps. Change targets often and put ecm drones on logi. Things will start to die

You don't need more poeple to deal with logi just more ewar! Switch out a couple dps for damp/ecm boats. Less dps means prolonged fight which means more chances for jams and mistakes.

Fly smarter. Everyones getting better at EVE time to step up your game Big smile

Blue-Fire Best Fire
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#32 - 2013-06-03 15:16:42 UTC
Sakkar Arenith wrote:
Abrazzar wrote:
This whole discussion reminds me of what went down before the nano-nerf.


Exactly!

"The Nanophoon isnt op, all you need is an arazu, two rapiers and two long range dps ships to counter it, noob, L2P..."


Similarly:

"Remote Reps arent op all you need is one Damp cruiser, one ecm boat, neuts, dps, a logi of your own, and a stupid counterpart, to beat it, L2P newb!...."


If you dont understand that the remote repping has become just as imba as nano used to be, you really have no idea what youre talking about.

The fact that you need 3 seperate ships + logi of your own to take down a logi, should be obvious enough for everyone... but the derp is strong in the forums.

But, nah, its totally balanced, we just dont know the sekrit handzsh4k3 to defeat them........


Nerf incoming!


They arn't saying you need 3 seperate ships + logi to defeat logis. You need one or two of the ships to defeat enemy logis. Alpha fleets are just the easy way to defeat a large logi fleet because the FC just has to call out a target and everyone just has to hit F1 together. Using neuts/ECM/damps takes more coordination, but can still be utilized to defeat logis.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Moonaura
The Dead Rabbit Society
#33 - 2013-06-03 15:31:15 UTC
EVE is a game of tactics. If you use the same tactics, you'll get the same results. There are lots of creative ways to break up and ruin Logistics ships, but not many corps have the flexibility, or creativity to use them.

But a return to the old days of a few ships limping home after an engagement; No thanks.

"The game is mostly played by men - 97%. But 40% of them play as women... so thats fine."  - CCP t0rfifrans 
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#34 - 2013-06-03 15:51:16 UTC
RR is not an issue. ALWAYS anticipate your opponent using it and have several ways to deal with it. Yes it may suck sometimes but it can be beaten. Even with a DPS gang it can be done.

And FFS whoever talked about changes and screwing up WHs... DON'T!!! WHs are the one place in EVE which works pretty well. Last thing we need is some whiners causing a knee-jerk reaction to screw it up.
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