Ships & Modules

Because people don't use void on blasters they use null or anti. Because people use scorch on lasers and not conflagration. You have to understand that damage application, or range is a stat that is severely underestimated by many people.

Exactly as stated above with the same ammo fed navy blasters have worse range and damage, rarely does the fitting difference give any value.

Perhaps if you dropped the tag requirements and made them dirt cheap they would be good for new players.

Better for what? Pos bashing?

To be fair, this does lead to faction guns sometimes being used in favor of T2, when the T2 ammo isn't good/required. I think the Nightmare (with faction tachs) is the only example I've seen in real space, but sure, it's an advantage.

Just not one that's relevant enough.

+ Op is forgetting the +2% dmg increase from T2 Guns specialization, T2 long and short range ammo that cover 90% of needs for pvp in range and performance requirements terms. (Faction AM being vital for rails as EMP/Hail is for autos/arty or scorch/Faction multi for lasers)

If this is about PVE then forget my comment, even thou T2 guns with faction ammo is still much better as it should be.
Faction guns are good enough for players not willing to spend time training T2 specs.

I think I still got 8 800mm RF autos in some hangar somewhere from a couple years, not ready to ever use them even on a pimpy faction ship over T2 ones, no way.

it would be really cool if you could use invention to make tech II faction guns...

No, I'm not. Faction turrets have a larger damage modifier, so it almost evens out.


Void has better range in some circumstances. I use it with my Ishkur.

And, let me clear this up, I'm not saying faction turrets are better than tech II turrets entirely, I'm saying it is fairly well balanced and that people should stop whining about it.

Have you compared them to meta 4 weapons? Modal blasters have the same cap draw but use even less CPU and have better optimal range meaning past a few km the damage is almost the same.

You can eke out slightly better performance from a beam Slicer using IN guns -- but that winds up being so insanely fringe it's probably not worth discussing.

Short range faction weapons are pretty much never worthwhile. Pulses need Scorch, ACs need Barrage, HAMs and torpedos need Javelin. Whether you want to use blasters without Void or Null seems dubious, and there are certainly times you'd very much want Javelin rockets as well. So right there you can eliminate half of all faction weapons.

On the long range side you have to look at what you're trading off. For artillery you get -5% rate or fire. Which... isn't as good as the spec skill under any circumstances unless you actually want lower alpha for some ridiculous reason? I mean, why are you fitting artillery in the first place? Slightly lower fitting, so I guess that's good for RF/Domination. But honestly, artillery just isn't as hard to fit as it used to be.

Rails are interesting because at least CN/DG rails do something that T2 just don't: they have every so slightly longer range (8.3% more to be exact). But CN/DG are stuck with the same damage mod as meta 4. FN/SS get the same range as T2 but have a crappy damage increase instead, meaning spec-trained T2 is always better. Again, faction guns get a slight fitting advantage (up to 14% with CN/DG) so there's that. FN/SS don't look so good at with a 4.8% fitting advantage though. Both versions also get a 20% break on cap consumption compared to T2. So maybe, just maybe, there's a mediumish range sniper fit that doesn't need to take advantage of Spike's insane range that could benefit from CN/DG rails to bump its range and maybe fit a bit more tank. It might exist. I'm not sure I'd say the same for FN/SS rails.

So that leaves beams and long range missiles. As noted, CN launchers have two benefits: higher RoF (and hence DPS) regardless of spec level and higher capacity. If you're not going to use anything but faction ammo these are actually nice to have.

Beams are a bit ambiguous still, but in the case of very high cap draw tachs, the 25% reduction for faction guns can make a difference. But honestly, why weren't you fitting a cap booster in the first place? Still, combined with the reduced CPU (where Amarr ships tend to be short anyhow), tachs can be worthwhile, as can smaller beams under the right circumstances.

Overall, I'd say there's plenty left to be desired in faction weapons. Short range guns and missiles will never pull even with T2 without being able to use T2 ammo. That's an absolute deal-breaker. However, just allowing T2 ammo would actually significantly break T2 short (and long) range launchers, making them absolute monsters with their inherent RoF bonus, so that might need some tweaking.

If the best benefits of CN/DG and FN/SS rails were combined, they might make an interesting alternative to T2 even without access to T2 ammo. Faction artillery would need some serious help in any case.

Make faction better than T2 and require a T2 piece to buy insetad of the T1 one. Then at least the ******** cost will have a reason to exist...