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** HILMAR - Remove the CSM Now...**

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Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#421 - 2011-12-21 01:50:22 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
You got the universe you want in nullsec ......... it filled with a lot of your type ....... and it is not working. Which explains why you need to gank in highsec.

No it explains how we are so awesome that we can conquer nullsec and blow up highsec miners at the same time.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#422 - 2011-12-21 03:36:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Nullbeard Rager
Imigo Montoya wrote:
I would say here that Goonswarm Federation has recently finished a very successful newbee drive that has brought heaps of new players into the game and is helping them get started, which directly contradicts some of the statements made in this thread. But you know what they say about feeding trolls and letting facts get in the way of a good story.


Feel free to post your facts whenever you are ready.

Numbers went down recently then CCP fired people, you may have missed that.

If you can provide any proof, or if CCP says anything that supports your supposition, that goons brought heaps of players into EVE much less players who graduated from trial accounts to full accounts then good on the goons, but I think it's a bit too soon for goons to count their lemmings before they've hatched. Or is the goon koolaid, (goonaid?), really that good?

Until then don't let facts get in the way of your story.Big smile

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."
Imigo Montoya
BreadFleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#423 - 2011-12-21 04:32:44 UTC
Nullbeard Rager wrote:
Feel free to post your facts whenever you are ready.

Numbers went down recently then CCP fired people, you may have missed that.

If you can provide any proof, or if CCP says anything that supports your supposition, that goons brought heaps of players into EVE much less players who graduated from trial accounts to full accounts then good on the goons, but I think it's a bit too soon for goons to count their lemmings before they've hatched. Or is the goon koolaid, (goonaid?), really that good?

Until then don't let facts get in the way of your story.Big smile


LOL.

All I did was state that Goons had a very successful newbee drive (around 600 accounts apparently) and you start spouting off about things that I have supposedly missed, but hadn't even hinted at in any way whatsoever.

Nice one.
Temba Ronin
#424 - 2011-12-21 05:30:12 UTC
Imigo Montoya wrote:
Nullbeard Rager wrote:
Feel free to post your facts whenever you are ready.

Numbers went down recently then CCP fired people, you may have missed that.

If you can provide any proof, or if CCP says anything that supports your supposition, that goons brought heaps of players into EVE much less players who graduated from trial accounts to full accounts then good on the goons, but I think it's a bit too soon for goons to count their lemmings before they've hatched. Or is the goon koolaid, (goonaid?), really that good?

Until then don't let facts get in the way of your story.Big smile


LOL.

All I did was state that Goons had a very successful newbee drive (around 600 accounts apparently) and you start spouting off about things that I have supposedly missed, but hadn't even hinted at in any way whatsoever.

Nice one.

Waiting to hear about your experience with claiming sov or running an Alliance ..... for a master of PVE you certainly lost a good number of ships to other solo players in 1 vs 1 match ups and somehow can only claim a solo kill of a velator over a year ago .... kind of a long dry spell for someone who claims to fly alone regularly. But to be fair to you, you never said you flew alone outside of your alliance space so i'll give you one point for that.

You don't think it fallacious to quote "heaps" of new members brought in when you can't give a specific number or details of their subscription status? Sounds like you are repeating stuff you heard from "unnamed" sources, aka rumors/ propaganda.

Would it be fallacious to talk about how much fun the difficulty of obtaining sov is when you have never done it for an Alliance you ran, or should you be credited for just been a member of a large rabble of drones following the orders of others?

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Dietrich Krohs
Fuzzy Duck Flying V Squadron
#425 - 2011-12-21 08:30:30 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
...for a master of PVE you certainly lost a good number of ships to other solo players in 1 vs 1 match ups...

1v1 = PvE??

Temba Ronin wrote:
...fallacious... ...fallacious...

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Imigo Montoya
BreadFleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#426 - 2011-12-21 08:49:04 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
Waiting to hear about your experience with claiming sov or running an Alliance ..... for a master of PVE you certainly lost a good number of ships to other solo players in 1 vs 1 match ups and somehow can only claim a solo kill of a velator over a year ago .... kind of a long dry spell for someone who claims to fly alone regularly. But to be fair to you, you never said you flew alone outside of your alliance space so i'll give you one point for that.


I'd like to know why you think experience running an alliance has anything to do with this conversation. I have fought in several contests for sov, the Fountain campaign against IT Alliance for example (good times), but tbh I prefer small gang skirmishing which I've been enjoying quite a lot lately. I also fly all over both nullsec and highsec, including all regions in the north (both before and after the fall of the NC), Querious, Delve, Period Basis, Catch, Tenerefis, and the Drone regions, and have got kills (and a few losses) in most of those areas. None this month but plenty down south last month (the Delve war was lots of fun). But wait a second - there's no record of Imigo Montoya being involved in killmails for ages. How on earth could both of these things be true?

Here's the most recent logical fallacy you appear to be making - thinking that killboards are a full and complete record of a player's combat experience.

Also you have just offered an example of misrepresenting what I have said (again) - I never claimed to be a master of PvE, I merely stated that it is easy to master, and when done right you shouldn't be losing ships. I phrased it slightly differently before, so I would recommend re-reading what I wrote on the topic earlier and what I wrote in the previous sentence, and compare both to how you've interpreted them. You should find that your interpretation (based on your statements on the topic) is quite different to what I have stated.

Temba Ronin wrote:
You don't think it fallacious to quote "heaps" of new members brought in when you can't give a specific number or details of their subscription status? Sounds like you are repeating stuff you heard from "unnamed" sources, aka rumors/ propaganda.

Would it be fallacious to talk about how much fun the difficulty of obtaining sov is when you have never done it for an Alliance you ran, or should you be credited for just been a member of a large rabble of drones following the orders of others?


You seem to be misunderstanding what fallacious means. It is, for example, not fallacious to use a generalisation when you don't have explicit knowledge of specific facts (eg I didn't know exactly how many new members had signed up when I posted, but a rough figure became available later). I have trouble asserting things that I have little or no knowledge of so I tend to avoid it. You seem to have no such trouble.

It is however, for example, fallacious to assert that somebody needs to have been the leader of a nullsec alliance to know anything about the game mechanics around nullsec sov.

Now where could we possibly get some definitive and unbiased (ie not rumors or propaganda) information about how many people are in a particular Alliance (Goonswarm Federation) or corporation (GoonWaffe), and how that has changed over time, since say the last month or so? If only there was some place that took the information from EVE's API regarding such matters and displayed them in an easy to use manner. I pray to Wollari to deliver us from this perilous void of data!
Slaver Filth
Council of Apostles
#427 - 2011-12-21 09:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Slaver Filth
Imigo Montoya wrote:


Temba Ronin wrote:
You don't think it fallacious to quote "heaps" of new members brought in when you can't give a specific number or details of their subscription status? Sounds like you are repeating stuff you heard from "unnamed" sources, aka rumors/ propaganda.

Would it be fallacious to talk about how much fun the difficulty of obtaining sov is when you have never done it for an Alliance you ran, or should you be credited for just been a member of a large rabble of drones following the orders of others?


Imigo Montoya wrote:
So on the chance that it's naivety, I'll address some of your points:

Temba Ronin wrote:
The myth that pve players are adverse to losing ships is nonsense! What is distasteful is losing a ship to a punk thug who enjoys having the game mechanics set up to support his limited thinking style of gameplay.

Imigo Montoya wrote:
PvE, once mastered (eg, having read the missions guide on the eve-o wiki) is highly predictible and therefore easily beaten. The NPCs do the same things in the same scenarios. Even Incursions, while requiring player cooperation to beat, are still predictible. If you're regularly losing ships in PvE, you're doing it wrong.

Game mechanics don't support suicide ganking, they allow it. In fact, as I stated in my previous response to your idea (which I note you haven't addressed), the game mechanics spawn unbeatable irresistable NPCs to destroy a suicide ganker's ship, so all the gankee has to do is survive long enough.

Temba Ronin wrote:
Lets try some new ways to break the ice for players who rightly perceive that nullsec can be a fast way to lose a ship and get podded without a reasonable chance of making isk.

Imigo Montoya wrote:
Not everything is about making ISK. Sometimes it's about challenge, competition, fun, or simply beating the other guy. Making ISK is one appeal, there are so many others. If your only measure of how good something is is "how much ISK will I make", you'll miss out on some of the best content that makes EVE a unique experience.

Temba Ronin wrote:
I think trying to conquer a system held by vet players would be far more challenging then any other mission being offered to PVE players now. Sure i know i can get my friends and do it now blah blah blah, but what prevents us from trying something more attractive like bounties and claiming sov for a NPC Empire faction to get the mission runners who get shot at everyday from looking at nullsec as an opportunity instead of an obstacle?


Imigo Montoya wrote:
Sov nullsec is an opportunity, and of course it has obstacles. It wouldn't be any damn fun if it didn't. I really don't see what your point is here.

Temba Ronin wrote:
EVE needs a balance between things that favor a spoiled minority versus the things that work for the greater good of all the players.

Imigo Montoya wrote:
You seem to be misunderstanding what fallacious means. It is, for example, not fallacious to use a generalisation when you don't have explicit knowledge of specific facts (eg I didn't know exactly how many new members had signed up when I posted, but a rough figure became available later). I have trouble asserting things that I have little or no knowledge of so I tend to avoid it. You seem to have no such trouble.

It is however, for example, fallacious to assert that somebody needs to have been the leader of a nullsec alliance to know anything about the game mechanics around nullsec sov.

Now where could we possibly get some definitive and unbiased (ie not rumors or propaganda) information about how many people are in a particular Alliance (Goonswarm Federation) or corporation (GoonWaffe), and how that has changed over time, since say the last month or so? If only there was some place that took the information from EVE's API regarding such matters and displayed them in an easy to use manner. I pray to Wollari to deliver us from this perilous void of data!

Pretty clear you are just a liar hiding behind a mountain of words Mr. Montoya, you clearly put forth as facts information you had no command of until you talked to your corp handlers. You constantly contradict your own words. You are a complete fraud aka a perfect goon foot soldier. Check my kill board i have plenty of phantom kills of you in the past month that don't show up also haha! You are a total fraud and your lies fail. Run back to your corp handlers you **** poor propagandist.

"Child of Amarr seek not warmth in our cold hearts, we are the old serpent of New Eden and you must do your part, revel in our viciousness, we rule by venom and our strike is merciless, "
Imigo Montoya
BreadFleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#428 - 2011-12-21 09:32:20 UTC
Slaver Filth wrote:
Pretty clear you are just a liar hiding behind a mountain of words Mr. Montoya, you clearly put forth as facts information you had no command of until you talked to your corp handlers. You constantly contradict your own words. You are a complete fraud aka a perfect goon foot soldier. Check my kill board i have plenty of phantom kills of you in the past month that don't show up also haha! You are a total fraud and your lies fail. Run back to your corp handlers you **** poor propagandist.


AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

That's brilliant.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#429 - 2011-12-21 09:43:55 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Says the guy who whined that he should be allowed to shoot characters with a GCC timer...


You have been playing since 2006 i sincerely hope you know things about the game i haven't had the opportunity to learn yet, so don't break your arm patting yourself on the back for that knowledge.

When you first started EVE how old was the game? Which relates directly to how much of a skill experience lead the veterans had over you when you were a rookie.
.


The game was in it's 4th year when I started. Malc was created with about 60,000 skillpoints, stats that couldn't be remapped - and with +3 implants costing 19-22M each in hi-sec I was pretty happy with +1s and +2s. Drakes didn't exist; after a month of play I was able to do level 3 missions with a passive-tanked HML Ferox, making up to 5M ISK per hour (there was no LP store then; LP worked more like lottery tickets and they never paid off for me).

There were plenty of people with 40-50M SP who had carriers, HACs, T2 fitted ships and other baubles I could only dream of owning. (How I pined for that 300 mill Cerb when I was flying my dinky little Caracal! ) The days I started playing, everyone had a skill advantage over me. And a wealth advantage, an assets advantage, an experience advantage, a game knowledge advantage, an in-game friends advantage, everything.

However I did make an effort to talk to people in game, and asked for the information I needed. I certainly never whined for the rules to be changed to accomodate me out of pure ignorance of the fact that they already did. I certainly never presumed to make proposals to change aspects of the game I knew nothing about. And I most certainly never complained that the people who started playing before me had accumulated those advantages; instead, I set about accumulating them for myself to the best of my ability. I found it a much more effective strategy to focus on what I could do rather than on what I couldn't.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Temba Ronin
#430 - 2011-12-21 16:24:46 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Says the guy who whined that he should be allowed to shoot characters with a GCC timer...


You have been playing since 2006 i sincerely hope you know things about the game i haven't had the opportunity to learn yet, so don't break your arm patting yourself on the back for that knowledge.

When you first started EVE how old was the game? Which relates directly to how much of a skill experience lead the veterans had over you when you were a rookie.
.


The game was in it's 4th year when I started. Malc was created with about 60,000 skillpoints, stats that couldn't be remapped - and with +3 implants costing 19-22M each in hi-sec I was pretty happy with +1s and +2s. Drakes didn't exist; after a month of play I was able to do level 3 missions with a passive-tanked HML Ferox, making up to 5M ISK per hour (there was no LP store then; LP worked more like lottery tickets and they never paid off for me).

There were plenty of people with 40-50M SP who had carriers, HACs, T2 fitted ships and other baubles I could only dream of owning. (How I pined for that 300 mill Cerb when I was flying my dinky little Caracal! ) The days I started playing, everyone had a skill advantage over me. And a wealth advantage, an assets advantage, an experience advantage, a game knowledge advantage, an in-game friends advantage, everything.

However I did make an effort to talk to people in game, and asked for the information I needed. I certainly never whined for the rules to be changed to accomodate me out of pure ignorance of the fact that they already did. I certainly never presumed to make proposals to change aspects of the game I knew nothing about. And I most certainly never complained that the people who started playing before me had accumulated those advantages; instead, I set about accumulating them for myself to the best of my ability. I found it a much more effective strategy to focus on what I could do rather than on what I couldn't.

I started this year and have to face and compete against players with a 9 year advantage on me, something you'll never have to experience, so please take my word it's a lot more difficult to avoid getting killed by a 6 year vet then a 4 year vet.

I don't apologize for speaking up against what i perceive to be fixable flaws that negatively impact player enjoyment and retention and the fact that i choose to speak up now while it took you more years to discover your voice in the forums is something i wonder/ question why you wear as a badge of honor?

I've learned a lot from other players with more experience in game and in the forums but because it's not the way you chose to learn i am doing it wrong, right? This is a song sang over and over in this game, do it the way i did it or you are doing it the wrong way!

The game is far different from when you first started, it has changed a lot, a fact which i am hopeful even you would agree with. But the one thing that seems to have remained constant is some personality types just put their head down and plod forward never questioning their situation and quietly join the herd. Other personality types are more proactive and have the courage and the imagination to want to improve their position in things and make the overall situation more equitable for everyone.

So honestly i don't feel compelled to plod along and follow your well worn path of the past when i am trying to get to, and help create a completely different future.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Dietrich Krohs
Fuzzy Duck Flying V Squadron
#431 - 2011-12-21 22:01:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Dietrich Krohs
Temba Ronin wrote:
I started this year and have to face and compete against players with a 9 year advantage on me, something you'll never have to experience, so please take my word it's a lot more difficult to avoid getting killed by a 6 year vet then a 4 year vet.

That's your big beef? That people who have been playing the game for longer than you have more experience?

You know, not only have I faced the same thing, but I've outsmarted them.

Temba Ronin wrote:
I've learned a lot from other players with more experience in game and in the forums but because it's not the way you chose to learn i am doing it wrong, right? This is a song sang over and over in this game, do it the way i did it or you are doing it the wrong way!


Temba Ronin wrote:
So honestly i don't feel compelled to plod along and follow your well worn path of the past when i am trying to get to, and help create a completely different future.


And yet, here's what Malcanis said:
Malcanis wrote:
However I did make an effort to talk to people in game, and asked for the information I needed... ...I set about accumulating [the advantages held by others] for myself to the best of my ability. I found it a much more effective strategy to focus on what I could do rather than on what I couldn't...


So, how does that work, precisely?

You're doing things differently from Malcanis by doing what Malcanis did?
Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#432 - 2011-12-21 22:17:34 UTC
Imigo Montoya wrote:
Nullbeard Rager wrote:
Feel free to post your facts whenever you are ready.

Numbers went down recently then CCP fired people, you may have missed that.

If you can provide any proof, or if CCP says anything that supports your supposition, that goons brought heaps of players into EVE much less players who graduated from trial accounts to full accounts then good on the goons, but I think it's a bit too soon for goons to count their lemmings before they've hatched. Or is the goon koolaid, (goonaid?), really that good?

Until then don't let facts get in the way of your story.Big smile


LOL.

All I did was state that Goons had a very successful newbee drive (around 600 accounts apparently) and you start spouting off about things that I have supposedly missed, but hadn't even hinted at in any way whatsoever.

Nice one.


Actually I was quite sure you knew about it but I did want see what "heaps" was.

600 is not too shabby. I hope they stay.

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."
Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#433 - 2011-12-21 22:43:01 UTC
Imigo Montoya wrote:
Nullbeard Rager wrote:
Feel free to post your facts whenever you are ready.

Numbers went down recently then CCP fired people, you may have missed that.

If you can provide any proof, or if CCP says anything that supports your supposition, that goons brought heaps of players into EVE much less players who graduated from trial accounts to full accounts then good on the goons, but I think it's a bit too soon for goons to count their lemmings before they've hatched. Or is the goon koolaid, (goonaid?), really that good?

Until then don't let facts get in the way of your story.Big smile


LOL.

All I did was state that Goons had a very successful newbee drive (around 600 accounts apparently) and you start spouting off about things that I have supposedly missed, but hadn't even hinted at in any way whatsoever.

Nice one.


I will admit it WAS a bit much. My apologies.Bear

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."
Imigo Montoya
BreadFleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#434 - 2011-12-22 00:26:07 UTC
Nullbeard Rager wrote:
Actually I was quite sure you knew about it but I did want see what "heaps" was.

600 is not too shabby. I hope they stay.


Judging by the accounts of newbees chalking up many pod kills in rifters and thrashers, I think some will be hooked.

Nullbeard Rager wrote:
I will admit it WAS a bit much. My apologies.Bear


Civility?! On this forum?!? You trendsetter!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#435 - 2011-12-22 09:07:48 UTC
Dietrich Krohs wrote:

And yet, here's what Malcanis said:
Malcanis wrote:
However I did make an effort to talk to people in game, and asked for the information I needed... ...I set about accumulating [the advantages held by others] for myself to the best of my ability. I found it a much more effective strategy to focus on what I could do rather than on what I couldn't...


So, how does that work, precisely?

You're doing things differently from Malcanis by doing what Malcanis did?


Well, to be fair to him, he's whining about it as well, which admittedly I never tried.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Laechyd Eldgorn
Avanto
Hole Control
#436 - 2011-12-22 11:26:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn
CSM should have different boards for different aspects of game play and you should be able to vote one person for each. Amount and purpose of these boards could change over time however CCP determines is needed for different times.

For example we would have option to vote one canditate for each CSM board:

- 0.0 sov warfare
- piracy (including 0.0, low sec, hi sec)
- small scale warfare
- pve
- industry

Each of these would only discuss about stuff designated to them not interfere with other stuff. And like said names and purposes for boards could change over time periods.

That is how you could vote a guy you know has some experience about the stuff he's going to handle.
Temba Ronin
#437 - 2011-12-22 15:37:57 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Dietrich Krohs wrote:

And yet, here's what Malcanis said:
Malcanis wrote:
However I did make an effort to talk to people in game, and asked for the information I needed... ...I set about accumulating [the advantages held by others] for myself to the best of my ability. I found it a much more effective strategy to focus on what I could do rather than on what I couldn't...


So, how does that work, precisely?

You're doing things differently from Malcanis by doing what Malcanis did?


Well, to be fair to him, he's whining about it as well, which admittedly I never tried.

Oh self righteous defender of the "do it the way i did it or you are doing it wrong" herd you know quite well your major snipe which you call whining is my willingness to state my points of displeasure with the status quo in forums. But you being the intellectual hero that you are want to seem fair to me by repeating thinly veiled insults which only demonstrate your inability to win any debate on merit ...... which forces you to trot out your refined ability to word spin aka lie, so that the tin foil hat afraid of change crowd you play to give you applause.

If that is what you need from your online fans i am happy to help, because i find it entertaining when people can't man up to win on merit. Toss your red meat punchlines to your foaming at the mouth small minded herd of protect "their advantage" followers that rise up to wail against every new notion that might improve the game.

For the record ..... your signature is in fact a whine against change so every post you have made since you implemented it has ended in a whine which you Truthfully??? just stated you never tried. Take those tin foil pants off your head.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#438 - 2011-12-22 15:41:38 UTC
1/10.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#439 - 2011-12-22 15:52:58 UTC
Nullbeard Rager wrote:
Imigo Montoya wrote:


LOL.

All I did was state that Goons had a very successful newbee drive (around 600 accounts apparently) and you start spouting off about things that I have supposedly missed, but hadn't even hinted at in any way whatsoever.

Nice one.


Actually I was quite sure you knew about it but I did want see what "heaps" was.

600 is not too shabby. I hope they stay.



Imigo, 600 is almost statistically significant - not that we have a controlled study going on, but very interesting :) ....

Wonder, would it be possible to track how many stay and report back here in a month or two?

If Goonfleet can get good retention, I may have to eat crow, biomass all my characters, and "if you can't beat em, join em" somehow lol.
Imigo Montoya
BreadFleet
Triglavian Outlaws and Sobornost Troika
#440 - 2011-12-22 18:15:48 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
Imigo, 600 is almost statistically significant - not that we have a controlled study going on, but very interesting :) ....

Wonder, would it be possible to track how many stay and report back here in a month or two?

If Goonfleet can get good retention, I may have to eat crow, biomass all my characters, and "if you can't beat em, join em" somehow lol.


Such a feat would require god-like levels of data access that you would have to pray to CCP or Solo to get anything, and I doubt that they would be inclined to either gather or share said data.

In the meantime, there's always Dotlan, unspecific as it may be.