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** HILMAR - Remove the CSM Now...**

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Author
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#381 - 2011-12-07 17:58:48 UTC
Oh hey, I should've known Cygnet would be in this thread with his overly paranoid ramblings.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Dunbar Hulan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#382 - 2011-12-07 18:55:56 UTC
My biggest concern with the CSM right now isn't the Null sec thing, after all, I live in NPC null and I'm aware of the various issues going on in Null.

My main concern is with the representation of (or lack of) the "Average Joe'" The guy who tools around in hi sec doing level 4's and docking up in stations during war time, you know, that type of guy. I might be wrong here, but I'm sure they make up a large segment of the EVE community, sure, they'll probably never come down to null or whatever, but they still play the game and pay fees. I think that the CSM (as well as the rest of us who live and work in null or low) tend to narrow one's focus on what's important to their own interest at any particular time.
I think a positive reinforcement campaign by the CSM that reaches out to the average Joe, would go a long way to giving them a feeling of inclusion. In other words, the CSM should work on their communication and provide regular updates and feedback.
Just my two cents.

 ** Manchester United - Paul Scholes= Genius**

Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#383 - 2011-12-08 11:13:09 UTC
Dunbar Hulan wrote:
My biggest concern with the CSM right now isn't the Null sec thing, after all, I live in NPC null and I'm aware of the various issues going on in Null.

My main concern is with the representation of (or lack of) the "Average Joe'" The guy who tools around in hi sec doing level 4's and docking up in stations during war time, you know, that type of guy. I might be wrong here, but I'm sure they make up a large segment of the EVE community, sure, they'll probably never come down to null or whatever, but they still play the game and pay fees. I think that the CSM (as well as the rest of us who live and work in null or low) tend to narrow one's focus on what's important to their own interest at any particular time.
I think a positive reinforcement campaign by the CSM that reaches out to the average Joe, would go a long way to giving them a feeling of inclusion. In other words, the CSM should work on their communication and provide regular updates and feedback.
Just my two cents.


The problem is that your "Average Joe" typically doesn't get involved in the forums, doesn't read dev blogs or external news sites, doesn't even know who or what the CSM is, doesn't really interact with anyone except in their corp chat or the occasional small mining gang.

Its hard to represent or include somebody who lives in a bubble.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#384 - 2011-12-08 11:43:56 UTC
Dunbar Hulan wrote:
My biggest concern with the CSM right now isn't the Null sec thing, after all, I live in NPC null and I'm aware of the various issues going on in Null.

My main concern is with the representation of (or lack of) the "Average Joe'" The guy who tools around in hi sec doing level 4's and docking up in stations during war time, you know, that type of guy. I might be wrong here, but I'm sure they make up a large segment of the EVE community, sure, they'll probably never come down to null or whatever, but they still play the game and pay fees. I think that the CSM (as well as the rest of us who live and work in null or low) tend to narrow one's focus on what's important to their own interest at any particular time.
I think a positive reinforcement campaign by the CSM that reaches out to the average Joe, would go a long way to giving them a feeling of inclusion. In other words, the CSM should work on their communication and provide regular updates and feedback.
Just my two cents.



What representation does this guy need though? He confines himself to a minute subsection of what it's possible to do in EVE and has no interest in the rest of it. His missions work pretty much the same as they always did, maybe he has recently been pleasantly surprised to find that his Kronos suddenly works somewhat better than it used to, and I bet he likes the new nebulae and generally improved look of EVE.

What are the burning issues confronting Average Joe that he will care about whether or not he's represented on the CSM? He'd probably like more missions, and maybe he'd like ones that are more fun to do but really, there's very little contention against improving EVE's horribly sub-par PvE.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Dunbar Hulan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#385 - 2011-12-08 14:42:10 UTC
Aye fair enough guys, I (like the rest of us down in null) would like to see some sort of structured reach out to these guys to get them to at least try null once or twice. I'm sure there probably some of them that have thought about it, but been talked out of it by a corp mate along the lines of : " No way, never go down there, you'll be podded, killed, laughed at, scammed", and all the other nonsense that someone will say. Does the CSM have the capabilities of sending subscribers emails like the EVE marketing dept does? Or sending updates and feedback via the EVE marketing dept?
I'm sure a decent marketing campaign that reinforces the message of the CSM would be a big step to communication and feedback, which (in my humble opinion) is the #1 development point the CSM needs to work on.

 ** Manchester United - Paul Scholes= Genius**

Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#386 - 2011-12-09 17:55:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Takara Mora
Dunbar Hulan wrote:
Aye fair enough guys, I (like the rest of us down in null) would like to see some sort of structured reach out to these guys to get them to at least try null once or twice. I'm sure there probably some of them that have thought about it, but been talked out of it by a corp mate along the lines of : " No way, never go down there, you'll be podded, killed, laughed at, scammed", and all the other nonsense that someone will say. Does the CSM have the capabilities of sending subscribers emails like the EVE marketing dept does? Or sending updates and feedback via the EVE marketing dept?
I'm sure a decent marketing campaign that reinforces the message of the CSM would be a big step to communication and feedback, which (in my humble opinion) is the #1 development point the CSM needs to work on.



I like Dunbar and Malcanis' lines of reasoning here .... though I would mention, isn't it just simply true that if the "average Joe" type DOES head out to Null, he really will experience exactly what his corp mates have told him .... (he'll quickly be podded, killed, laughed at, scammed, and scorned as "not a member of the NullSec Elite club)?

I like the idea of reaching out to such players --> but really, wouldn't we first need an entirely new type of NullSec experience to sell them on? Some way they could actually go out there and do something fun, without having to become meatshield #999, loyal subject of Militant Alliance #675, with only Blob warfare to look forward to everyday? I've had probably 5 corp members head out to null and they ended up coming back in 3 months for exactly these reasons (they did join up with larger Alliances which lowered the scorn factor, and helped them not get podded often).

I realize I'm exagerrating here ... but isn't this really what the problem boils down to? --> we need a new type of nullsec experience if we want to get "average joes" to WANT to play it?
Dunbar Hulan
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#387 - 2011-12-11 21:09:32 UTC
There is a fantastic null sec survival training corp called OUCH (Open University of Celestial Hardship) Be a god idea if someone from the CSM or null sec corps looking to get their recruits trained, hi sec corps looking to get into null, to get in touch with them.

 ** Manchester United - Paul Scholes= Genius**

Ilvari
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#388 - 2011-12-12 12:53:42 UTC
Dunbar Hulan wrote:
My main concern is with the representation of (or lack of) the "Average Joe'" The guy who tools around in hi sec doing level 4's and docking up in stations during war time, you know, that type of guy.


You want representation for Python scripts?
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#389 - 2011-12-12 13:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
dohoho, I see what you did there.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Tore Vest
#390 - 2011-12-18 13:51:51 UTC
So... why do we still have CSM ?

No troll.

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#391 - 2011-12-18 14:10:41 UTC
Because they're actually effective?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#392 - 2011-12-18 15:51:43 UTC
NO doubt CSM is an effective tool for CCP!

It shouldn't be the ONLY tool though .... we SHOULD care about what the Average Joe (non voting) player cares about, because we need them to remain loyal subscribers .... so why doesn't CCP avail itself of all the other types of additional tools that good marketing companies use? (maybe they do and we just don't see it? Maybe it's under NDA?)

The CSM basically amounts to nothing more than simply a "long term" "Focus Group". Focus Groups are notoriously horrible at detecting what will be successful or unsuccessful in the market ... very hit and miss, and should not be relied upon without other sources of input.

While I do like much of what the CSM has advocated, it's unclear to me whether CCP would not have already done these things even without the CSM .... especially if they availed themselves of much more disciplined and widespread user surveys and feedback tools.

So yes, IMO, we should keep the CSM! No, it's probably not possible to optimize representation for different blocks (Nullsec, Losec, Hisec, etc.) - just as in real life, there's no way to PROVE anyone cares about a certain set of issues, other than through their actions after the vote. Yes, CCP should listen to their CSM "focus group" closely ... But they should supplement CSM feedback with better tools (global feedback surveys for example), so that they, AND the CSM, have good data to work with for making design decisions.

Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#393 - 2011-12-18 17:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Nullbeard Rager
Lord Zim wrote:
Because they're actually effective?


Effective for themselves, yes. Effective for the entire player base, "no" is an understatement.

There is a reason a lot of the player base feels like the CCP and the CSM get drunk and gleefully give each other reacharounds.

Hint: It is NOT because the majority of the non-hardcore pvp player base which is still the clear majority in EVE feels CCP and the CSM are taking care of them.

Still, it IS CCP's right to run their game however they see fit even if they alienate past, current and future customers. i just don't understand why they would be so concerned with subscription numbers when they seem more interested in catering to players who entertain themselves at other players expense rather than make a game that includes the same elements EVE already possesses yet caters to a wider player base where something more like a real word could exist rather than the fantasy of EVE being UFC/MMA in space.

This is how CCP looks to a lot of the player base, past, current and future:

CCP: "Ooo let's make a game where people can scam,steal, be pirates and basically entertain themselves at others expense and let's focus on that player segment at the expense of the others!"
Trolls: "YAY!!!"

CCP: "Damn, we need to get more players into our game. Any suggestions?"
Trolls: *crickets*

There's no mystery here.

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."

Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#394 - 2011-12-18 19:12:44 UTC
Nullbeard Rager wrote:
[

This is how CCP looks to a lot of the player base, past, current and future:

CCP: "Ooo let's make a game where people can scam,steal, be pirates and basically entertain themselves at others expense and let's focus on that player segment at the expense of the others!"
Trolls: "YAY!!!"

CCP: "Damn, we need to get more players into our game. Any suggestions?"
Trolls: *crickets*

There's no mystery here.



Wow, well put ....

On the plus side, their approach gets big headlines .... seems like all the headlines do though is pull in 3 week trial subs who abruptly leave ....
Nullbeard Rager
Doomheim
#395 - 2011-12-18 19:18:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Nullbeard Rager
Takara Mora wrote:
Nullbeard Rager wrote:
[

This is how CCP looks to a lot of the player base, past, current and future:

CCP: "Ooo let's make a game where people can scam,steal, be pirates and basically entertain themselves at others expense and let's focus on that player segment at the expense of the others!"
Trolls: "YAY!!!"

CCP: "Damn, we need to get more players into our game. Any suggestions?"
Trolls: *crickets*

There's no mystery here.



Wow, well put ....

On the plus side, their approach gets big headlines .... seems like all the headlines do though is pull in 3 week trial subs who abruptly leave ....


I think part of that is because people like READING about scams and piracy but discover how NOT fun it is to have those things happen to them.

It's not that I have any issues with scams and piracy and ganking per se, it's just that CCP seems to still mostly be working on that part of the game when it is clear the majority of their player base have other in-game pursuits in entertaining themselves.

Field of Trolls:  "If you chum it, they will come."

Tore Vest
#396 - 2011-12-18 21:31:37 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Because they're actually effective?


I knew i dint have to comment this post Bear

No troll.

Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#397 - 2011-12-18 21:52:03 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
seems like all the headlines do though is pull in 3 week trial subs who abruptly leave ....


[citation needed]

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.

Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#398 - 2011-12-18 22:12:36 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Takara Mora wrote:
seems like all the headlines do though is pull in 3 week trial subs who abruptly leave ....


[citation needed]


Anecdotal experience based on ~15 new joiners personally witnessed, no citation forthcoming but maybe you can get CCP to share recent subscription trends?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#399 - 2011-12-18 22:21:52 UTC
Takara Mora wrote:
Nullbeard Rager wrote:
[

This is how CCP looks to a lot of the player base, past, current and future:

CCP: "Ooo let's make a game where people can scam,steal, be pirates and basically entertain themselves at others expense and let's focus on that player segment at the expense of the others!"
Trolls: "YAY!!!"

CCP: "Damn, we need to get more players into our game. Any suggestions?"
Trolls: *crickets*

There's no mystery here.



Wow, well put ....

On the plus side, their approach gets big headlines .... seems like all the headlines do though is pull in 3 week trial subs who abruptly leave ....


I got interested in EVE when I heard about the GHSC heist, as did a lot of others.

Who the hell joins because they heard that you can mine Scordite in hi-sec?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Takara Mora
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2011-12-18 22:29:04 UTC
Do the headlines KEEP you around too though?