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** HILMAR - Remove the CSM Now...**

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2011-11-06 08:06:49 UTC
So, what you're saying is that the instant someone gets on the CSM, they can't actually advocate or perform any acts of griefing? Something which is, at least in my mind, a large cornerstone of how 0.0 works, and to a certain extent also hisec?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2011-11-06 08:46:03 UTC
Mr R4nd0m wrote:
STAY ON TOPIC - I WILL HAVE NO PROBLEM REPORTING TROLLS
LOL
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#263 - 2011-11-06 08:56:06 UTC
Advocating griefing is somehow anti-eve? My, the game I started playing has pulled a sudden about face, since I joined the game BECAUSE of the freedom to grief, scam, and otherwise be a jerk. I don't play that way personally, but part of the challenge of survival in eve is surviving those guys.

WTF kind of game is eve if you remove all the 'bad guys'(sic)? And when the game puts players in the role of 'bad guy' do they no longer rate as much attention as the precious little carebears or something?

Sure sounds fair to me. You have as much voice as any other carebear, and as much as any griefer. If you were to break free of the terrible things highsec has done to you, you could actually challenge the voices you oppose instead of whining on the forums.

Don't complain that griefers are ruining the highsec game, when highsec was added later and is actually ruining the griefers game. Learn to play the game in an engaged and intelligent manner, and the griefers/scammers/etc will not be able to bother you. They never bothered me in the 2 years I beared it up in highsec before I finally started playing the game the fun way.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#264 - 2011-11-06 09:03:42 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Advocating griefing is somehow anti-eve?
Just the opposite is true. You know that, of course. Sadly, this screaming Unista alt will never get it.
Kire Moshiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#265 - 2011-11-06 12:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Kire Moshiko
I also preferred Eve before the CSM for some very simple reasons.

I like my games designed by game designers. I enjoyed the game hugely when it was designed by CCP and I was looking forward to a lot of the future material CCP had planned.

It is the staff and shareholders/owners of CCP whose livelihoods stand or fall on the success of the game. The CSM have no investment, risk nothing, so they have neither the skill nor the incentive to look at creating a good game for all players.

The last concurrent usage figure recorded in the alliance tournament was something over 600,000 characters logged in. Most of these players do not care one whit about null sec. Most of them did not vote for the current CSM. Which means most of them did not want the current CSM. This CSM does not represent me. I did not choose them. I had no say in their appointment. It was CCP I chose, that I voted for with my wallet, and I never thought they needed anyone to tell them what to do.

I want to play the amazing, deep, open, engrossing, wonderful game I was playing before a bunch of unqualified nullsec muppets started screaming to have their own way. I want my Eve back. I want my CCP back.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2011-11-06 12:57:23 UTC
Kire Moshiko wrote:
I also preferred Eve before the CSM for some very simple reasons.

I like my games designed by game designers. I enjoyed the game hugely when it was designed by CCP and I was looking forward to a lot of the future material CCP had planned.

It is the staff and shareholders/owners of CCP whose livelihoods stand or fall on the success of the game. The CSM have no investment, risk nothing, so they have neither the skill nor the incentive to look at creating a good game for all players.

So, given the fact that the staff and shareholders/owners of CCP are dependent on EVE being a success, you would assume that they were in fact, you know, developing the game. Continuously. Not just barely keeping it alive for 18 months, amidst an increasingly vocal playerbase saying "this isn't right, fix it", followed by "holy fuckshit, we need to start developing the game again! SHUT. DOWN. EVERYTHING!".

Just sayin'.

Kire Moshiko wrote:
The last concurrent usage figure recorded in the alliance tournament was something over 600,000 characters logged in.

600k characters logged in when there were, what, 357k accounts total in-game at the end of 2010? Where did you see this?

Kire Moshiko wrote:
Most of these players do not care one whit about null sec. Most of them did not vote for the current CSM. Which means most of them did not want the current CSM. This CSM does not represent me. I did not choose them. I had no say in their appointment. It was CCP I chose, that I voted for with my wallet, and I never thought they needed anyone to tell them what to do.

Actually, you did choose, and you did have a say in their appointment. You chose to not care, and as such, you not giving a **** about the voting process itself doesn't mean you can say you had no say in their appointment. You had your chance to try to vote in someone else.

Vote next time?

Kire Moshiko wrote:
I want to play the amazing, deep, open, engrossing, wonderful game I was playing before a bunch of unqualified nullsec muppets started screaming to have their own way. I want my Eve back. I want my CCP back.

What have the CSM done to make the game not "amazing, deep, open, engrossing and wonderful"?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Angel Lust
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2011-11-06 13:10:49 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

What have the CSM done to make the game not "amazing, deep, open, engrossing and wonderful"?


Shocked

Remove CSM
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2011-11-06 13:22:42 UTC
Angel Lust wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

What have the CSM done to make the game not "amazing, deep, open, engrossing and wonderful"?


Shocked

Remove CSM

So what they did to make the game "not amazing, deep, open, engrossing and wonderful", as defined by Kire Moshiko, was sit at the meetings with bugeyes?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Kire Moshiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#269 - 2011-11-06 17:25:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kire Moshiko
Lord Zim wrote:

So, given the fact that the staff and shareholders/owners of CCP are dependent on EVE being a success, you would assume that they were in fact, you know, developing the game. Continuously. Not just barely keeping it alive for 18 months, amidst an increasingly vocal playerbase saying "this isn't right, fix it", followed by "holy fuckshit, we need to start developing the game again! SHUT. DOWN. EVERYTHING!".

Just sayin'.


I was having a great time, I didn't feel shorted at all until the CSMs started sticking their oars in. During the period of time you cite the game as barely being alive in fact.

That's my point - my love for the game started dying right about the time we got CSMs and certain sections of the playerbase discovered that they could influence game design by screaming a lot.

Lord Zim wrote:
600k characters logged in when there were, what, 357k accounts total in-game at the end of 2010? Where did you see this?


I thought it was quoted on air during the Eve TV coverage. Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of Eve - be it 600,000 accounts or 400,000 - did not vote for the current CSM.

Lord Zim wrote:
Actually, you did choose, and you did have a say in their appointment. You chose to not care, and as such, you not giving a **** about the voting process itself doesn't mean you can say you had no say in their appointment. You had your chance to try to vote in someone else.

Vote next time?


There wasn't an option for "none of the above."
There was no button labelled "I don't hire a lawyer to fix my plumbing, why is one doing my game design?"
I wasn't allowed to vote for "Someone Qualified."
Kire Moshiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#270 - 2011-11-06 17:27:27 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Kire Moshiko wrote:
I want to play the amazing, deep, open, engrossing, wonderful game I was playing before a bunch of unqualified nullsec muppets started screaming to have their own way. I want my Eve back. I want my CCP back.

What have the CSM done to make the game not "amazing, deep, open, engrossing and wonderful"?


They've kicked and screamed and drummed their heels on the ground about their own tiny pet issues and made such a din that CCP have dragged people off projects I would have liked to see and onto whatever flavour-of-the-month-cause the loudest section of the playerbase has decided is important.

Running an eye down the list of resolved issues on the Evelopedia, there are two issues on the entire list I actually care about. There are a bunch of minor tweaks I'm not convinced CCP wouldn't have done anyway, and a couple of items that are pure hysteria. This quote is especially great:

"House cleanup by IA department (or creation of one if it doesn't exist) and clearing up all the "rotten apples" . Although there is no public T20 yet, I doubt the GM department is fully clean."

Yes, that is "some bloke" demanding a security audit of CCP employees because he doesn't believe a department is clean. Note that this is not CCP's HR department talking. This is "some guy" who happens to have a spare £15 every month to play a game with. There's no evidence of any corruption, this guy isn't privy to any special information, he just doesn't think that honesty is likely.

Do you know what a huge common factor is among successful games, be they MMOs or AAA boxed games? The successful games are the ones that are designed and developed by the people who are making something they want to play.

The game I fell in love with was CCP's. Not The Mittani's. Not Jade Constantine's. Not Vuk Lau's. Not that of any member of any of the CSMs. Where once we had a game being developed iteratively towards a vision of a complete, finished experience encompassing a vast range of concepts and variety of playstyles, now we have a thousand disparate pieces being screamed about until CCP pays attention. I want to go back to the days where expansions happened because someone had an idea and wanted to make something beautiful, not constant developmental firefighting based on rumour, hysteria and personal agenda.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2011-11-06 17:45:45 UTC
Kire Moshiko wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:

So, given the fact that the staff and shareholders/owners of CCP are dependent on EVE being a success, you would assume that they were in fact, you know, developing the game. Continuously. Not just barely keeping it alive for 18 months, amidst an increasingly vocal playerbase saying "this isn't right, fix it", followed by "holy fuckshit, we need to start developing the game again! SHUT. DOWN. EVERYTHING!".

Just sayin'.


I was having a great time, I didn't feel shorted at all until the CSMs started sticking their oars in. During the period of time you cite the game as barely being alive in fact.

That's my point - my love for the game started dying right about the time we got CSMs and certain sections of the playerbase discovered that they could influence game design by screaming a lot.

So what changes was it the CSM pushed through that has you all up in arms? Because from my perspective, CCP decided to revamp the SOV system, completely flubbed it and released 50% of what was planned, made some ships hideously overpowered, and set a team of 4 or something to fix critical problems for the next 18 months. From my perspective, CCP screwed the pooch back then, and is only NOW finally starting to breathe life back into the game.

So, since we're looking so differently at the whole thing, where do you live? Hisec, lowsec, nullsec? What has CCP changed the last 3 years that you're so pissed over?

Kire Moshiko wrote:
There wasn't an option for "none of the above."
There was no button labelled "I don't hire a lawyer to fix my plumbing, why is one doing my game design?"
I wasn't allowed to vote for "Someone Qualified."

What is required for someone to be "qualified"?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Temba Ronin
#272 - 2011-11-06 18:12:19 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
So, what you're saying is that the instant someone gets on the CSM, they can't actually advocate or perform any acts of griefing? Something which is, at least in my mind, a large cornerstone of how 0.0 works, and to a certain extent also hisec?

You picked the boot licking route, I am not surprised, can't really expect anyone who is afraid to undock alone to man up. Lol

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#273 - 2011-11-06 18:17:41 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
So, what you're saying is that the instant someone gets on the CSM, they can't actually advocate or perform any acts of griefing? Something which is, at least in my mind, a large cornerstone of how 0.0 works, and to a certain extent also hisec?

You picked the boot licking route, I am not surprised, can't really expect anyone who is afraid to undock alone to man up. Lol

Do you have an actual answer to the question, or are you just going to fling impotent insults?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Kire Moshiko
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#274 - 2011-11-06 18:27:26 UTC
Apologies for the brevity here but I'm running short of time.

I currently have accounts that are active in high and lowsec - I spent about 2 years living in nullsec and still visit it fairly often but frankly I always found it to have either not enough people, or people I couldn't stand. In my time in eve, I've never been one single thing - I've always engaged in everything Eve has to offer. I'll fight solo, lead a fleet, run a mission or strip a belt with equal happiness but what I am most of all, is a tourist in someone else's vision.

Hilmar talked once about evolving Eve piece by piece into a "complete science-fiction simulator" and I'd like to see that. CCP have proven that they can create a game that I love, because I fell in love with Eve. There is no evidence that anyone on the CSMs has ever created a successful game, never mind one that is to my taste.

It's not any one thing that the CSM has done that has me, as you put it, "up in arms." It's the presumption of a group of players that they can chose what my money is spent on. I want the artists I am paying to make this game to decide what they spend time on, not "some random blokes."

For the playstyle I have, Eve has worked just fine, barring those horrible desyncs back in Cold War/RMR, which CCP fixed all by themselves. Even if we had a CSM back then, they'd probably have been demanding CCP change the rules on anchor ranges so they could make better penises and swasticas. Because from my PoV, that's what's happening. My FiS was working just fine so why would I want a body around that just forced CCP to "focus" on FiS when I could have had a more diverse and beautiful game to lose myself in that in future, could evolve in many different ways.

As for what I'd consider "qualified" to tell CCP what to do, how about a degree in Game Design including at least one business module, one AAA title shipped and having to successfully pass a two-stage interview by people at CCP who then decide to hire them. That's on a par with what makes you suitable to design a game in every other games company.
Temba Ronin
#275 - 2011-11-06 18:32:27 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
So, what you're saying is that the instant someone gets on the CSM, they can't actually advocate or perform any acts of griefing? Something which is, at least in my mind, a large cornerstone of how 0.0 works, and to a certain extent also hisec?

You picked the boot licking route, I am not surprised, can't really expect anyone who is afraid to undock alone to man up. Lol

Do you have an actual answer to the question, or are you just going to fling impotent insults?

Your question has been repeatedly answered but i'll give it one final try..... i never said any member of the CSM could not grief anyone in the game, so quit trying to win a point you created in your own mind .... the current choices as described by the CSM themselves, as the CSM does not square with the posted job definition and that is indisputable ..... perhaps I foolishly assumed that before running for the CSM every candidate would have read what it meant to be a member of the CSM and made the personal choice to operate under that definition ..... abusing the role of being a member of the CSM to reward your political supporters hurts the greater player base. CSM6 has not in any demonstrative way performed their roles as representatives of the greater player base as they are by job definition bound to do, and they are proud of it.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Ladie Harlot
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#276 - 2011-11-06 18:39:33 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
CSM6 has not in any demonstrative way performed their roles as representatives of the greater player base as they are by job definition bound to do

Sure they have.

The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet.
Temba Ronin
#277 - 2011-11-06 19:04:45 UTC
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
CSM6 has not in any demonstrative way performed their roles as representatives of the greater player base as they are by job definition bound to do

Sure they have.

EVELOPEDIA.Beta
Candidates are expected to be active on the CSM forums and participate in the discussion of topics. They are also expected to adhere to the EULA/TOS and carry themselves in a manner that sets an example for other players to follow.
The Mittani Post #31
"I haven't given CCP any of my actual money in years"

So following his example EVE has no paying subscribers and you think that is good for the game?

You think CCP will continue to fund it out of the goodness in their hearts and their love of creating a PVP Gankers Heaven right?

CSM6 has not performed their duties in the best interests of the greater player base, and they are proud of it.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!
Velicitia
XS Tech
#278 - 2011-11-06 19:23:42 UTC
Temba Ronin wrote:
Ladie Harlot wrote:
Temba Ronin wrote:
CSM6 has not in any demonstrative way performed their roles as representatives of the greater player base as they are by job definition bound to do

Sure they have.

EVELOPEDIA.Beta
Candidates are expected to be active on the CSM forums and participate in the discussion of topics. They are also expected to adhere to the EULA/TOS and carry themselves in a manner that sets an example for other players to follow.
The Mittani Post #31
"I haven't given CCP any of my actual money in years"

So following his example EVE has no paying subscribers and you think that is good for the game?

You think CCP will continue to fund it out of the goodness in their hearts and their love of creating a PVP Gankers Heaven right?

CSM6 has not performed their duties in the best interests of the greater player base, and they are proud of it.



So ... Mittani has been playing off the PLEX that someone else shelled out the $15 per for...

You or I could do that just as easily as he can...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#279 - 2011-11-06 19:26:04 UTC
Kire Moshiko wrote:
Apologies for the brevity here but I'm running short of time.

I currently have accounts that are active in high and lowsec - I spent about 2 years living in nullsec and still visit it fairly often but frankly I always found it to have either not enough people, or people I couldn't stand. In my time in eve, I've never been one single thing - I've always engaged in everything Eve has to offer. I'll fight solo, lead a fleet, run a mission or strip a belt with equal happiness but what I am most of all, is a tourist in someone else's vision.

Hilmar talked once about evolving Eve piece by piece into a "complete science-fiction simulator" and I'd like to see that. CCP have proven that they can create a game that I love, because I fell in love with Eve. There is no evidence that anyone on the CSMs has ever created a successful game, never mind one that is to my taste.

It's not any one thing that the CSM has done that has me, as you put it, "up in arms." It's the presumption of a group of players that they can chose what my money is spent on. I want the artists I am paying to make this game to decide what they spend time on, not "some random blokes."

So, in other words, your current playstyle hasn't really been affected the last 2 years, since nothing has really changed where you go for the last 2 years. The only thing that really changed in that timeperiod, has been the supers buff (causing them to be literally **** out as quickly as they can be queued up), and half (or less) of the planned SOV revamp to be released, all of which affect 0.0 only (well, unless you think about PL camping amamake).

This 18+ month period wasn't something the CSM demanded of CCP, it was CCP themselves who decided to shift almost all its focus on to WoD and Dust514, and if some people in here is to be believed, it wasn't the CSM that got CCP "back on track", it was the unsubscription numbers.

Kire Moshiko wrote:
Even if we had a CSM back then, they'd probably have been demanding CCP change the rules on anchor ranges so they could make better penises and swasticas. Because from my PoV, that's what's happening. My FiS was working just fine so why would I want a body around that just forced CCP to "focus" on FiS when I could have had a more diverse and beautiful game to lose myself in that in future, could evolve in many different ways.

You do realize that the CSM can't actually force CCP to do anything if it's inane **** like that? The only way the CSM can actually leverage any power over CCP is if CCP themselves screw up royally. Like, say, not developing the game for 18 months so everyone is getting fed up.

Kire Moshiko wrote:
As for what I'd consider "qualified" to tell CCP what to do, how about a degree in Game Design including at least one business module, one AAA title shipped and having to successfully pass a two-stage interview by people at CCP who then decide to hire them. That's on a par with what makes you suitable to design a game in every other games company.

FYI: Seleene was the guy that was the lead designer of the expansion where the SOV revamp was in, and he himself has repeatedly said that it's not what he had envisioned, and he has himself been very vocal in getting CCP to start fixing issues that have plauged the game for years. And, if memory serves, literally everyone that's on the CSM right now are saying they're all mostly in agreement and seem very satisfied with the direction CCP have suddenly decided to take.

Temba Ronin wrote:
perhaps I foolishly assumed that before running for the CSM every candidate would have read what it meant to be a member of the CSM and made the personal choice to operate under that definition ..... abusing the role of being a member of the CSM to reward your political supporters hurts the greater player base.

Do you have an example of this abuse of power?

Temba Ronin wrote:
Candidates are expected to be active on the CSM forums and participate in the discussion of topics. They are also expected to adhere to the EULA/TOS and carry themselves in a manner that sets an example for other players to follow.
The Mittani Post #31
"I haven't given CCP any of my actual money in years"

So following his example EVE has no paying subscribers and you think that is good for the game?

Wait a minute. Are you saying that what Mittani is doing, i.e. buying PLEX to keep his account running, is against the EULA/TOS? And that the entire playerbase is going to do exactly the same things Mittani is doing?

I'm hoping you know where the PLEX is coming from...

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Temba Ronin
#280 - 2011-11-06 20:01:04 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:


Temba Ronin wrote:
perhaps I foolishly assumed that before running for the CSM every candidate would have read what it meant to be a member of the CSM and made the personal choice to operate under that definition ..... abusing the role of being a member of the CSM to reward your political supporters hurts the greater player base.

Do you have an example of this abuse of power?

Temba Ronin wrote:
Candidates are expected to be active on the CSM forums and participate in the discussion of topics. They are also expected to adhere to the EULA/TOS and carry themselves in a manner that sets an example for other players to follow.
The Mittani Post #31
"I haven't given CCP any of my actual money in years"

So following his example EVE has no paying subscribers and you think that is good for the game?

Wait a minute. Are you saying that what Mittani is doing, i.e. buying PLEX to keep his account running, is against the EULA/TOS? And that the entire playerbase is going to do exactly the same things Mittani is doing?

I'm hoping you know where the PLEX is coming from...


Business 101
customer---> company = maximum profits
customer----> middleman-----> company =less potential profits unless volume increases to offset loss

So you are telling me CCP has explained their confidential revenue stream to you and after your expert analysis you have come to the conclusion a reduction in the direct subscriber base would in no way threaten their financial stability which would be very bad for the greater player base. I am just a subscriber/ player clearly I don't have the access you MUST have.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!