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Is it worthwhile to mission in low or null sec?
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Qalix
Long Jump.
#21 - 2013-05-30 22:30:28 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
Have you tried reading any of the *numerous* posts in my posting history about how to run L5s?

1 missions can be completed in less than 30 seconds.

2-3 can be completed in a couple minutes

4-5 more can be completed in ~20 minutes

Decline everything else.

You can easily run 4-5 missions per hour if you have a good system set up.
(using RR domi's and an auguror). No need for shiny ships.

I don't generally assume that every poster's posting history is worth going through. I've looked at yours, but your stuff is posted here, there, and everywhere, so there's no central way to look for anything specific. Since you're so willing to post, maybe you could write a little guide and link it in your sig. Much like DeMichael Crimson did with his awesome Plan. Then you won't have to endure the idiocy of us plebians.

Many of these mission running isk/hr conversations get hung up on the particulars of the calculation. I won't start one of those conversations but if you're running a 4 man alt team and using multiple L5s (which would have to be the case if you're declining a bunch of missions), I suspect the real time spent is greater. Regardless, maybe I'll look a little more into L5s. Particularly, where L5 agents are clustered and the NPC kill totals exceed the surrounding systems. There can't be too many of them.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-05-30 23:06:18 UTC
Qalix wrote:
Fango Mango wrote:
Have you tried reading any of the *numerous* posts in my posting history about how to run L5s?

1 missions can be completed in less than 30 seconds.

2-3 can be completed in a couple minutes

4-5 more can be completed in ~20 minutes

Decline everything else.

You can easily run 4-5 missions per hour if you have a good system set up.
(using RR domi's and an auguror). No need for shiny ships.

I don't generally assume that every poster's posting history is worth going through. I've looked at yours, but your stuff is posted here, there, and everywhere, so there's no central way to look for anything specific. Since you're so willing to post, maybe you could write a little guide and link it in your sig. Much like DeMichael Crimson did with his awesome Plan. Then you won't have to endure the idiocy of us plebians.

Many of these mission running isk/hr conversations get hung up on the particulars of the calculation. I won't start one of those conversations but if you're running a 4 man alt team and using multiple L5s (which would have to be the case if you're declining a bunch of missions), I suspect the real time spent is greater. Regardless, maybe I'll look a little more into L5s. Particularly, where L5 agents are clustered and the NPC kill totals exceed the surrounding systems. There can't be too many of them.


How I do my calculations . . . sit down at the computer for 1-2 hours. How many missions can I complete? Yes you have to talk to agents, yes you have to fly to mission system, yes you have to refit for resists. If you have enough agents/alts you can get nice clusters. If you wanted to mission for hours and hours in a row you would exhaust your agents and would need to change constellation or even region for a long session.

You won't find L5 missioning constellations from NPC kill totals because the entire point of blitzing is to NOT kill the NPCs (I just kill 1-7 per mission and/or a structure).

As far as I know (and this information is a year old) there are 9 constellations that are very active with L5 mission running.


Sure, I could write a nice little post to tell you exactly how to run L5s, but where's the fun in that.

I told you what you *could* achieve. The fun part is figuring out how to do it, not following a cookie cutter recipe.

L5s aren't the end game for PvE. There is much more difficult/higher reward content for small gangs, but you won't read about it on the forums. You have to go out and find it on your own. (again one the things that makes eve great).

- FM
Mother Drone
Transcendent Breed
#23 - 2013-05-31 06:31:23 UTC

No. Just no.
Yet again "those" sythetic calculations. If your spreadsheet doesn't show your real income you should exercise more with it.

Here some hints for your broken 440m/hour wannabe income:

- you "forgot" to include traveltimes between agents ... cherry picking blitzable missions leads to "a mission now and then" per agent (not 4 per hour)
- you "forgot" the huge hassle and timesink to cash your LPs in ... taking some 30k LP offers from LP store just won't cut it
- tag requiring LP offers? no because most tags are outragious expensive and the final item (i guess built from a BPC?) is still not more than 1000 isk/LP in most cases
- btw. how accounts do you use?
- you "forgot" downtimes due to hostile players in lvl 5 areas - which are quite busy systems
- lvl 5 agents belong to crappy-LP-shop-corps ... you have to look VERY closely to even find 1 or 2 offers that yield you more or equal to 1000 isk/LP
- if you found indeed an offer with more/equal than 1000 isk/h (just the offer without deeper considerations which i'm currently doing) than there is no way to use it for cashing in huge amounts of LPs
- isk/LP ratio is down the toilet since broken FW farming and incredible cheap FW LP shop offers (was decreasing even before already)
- btw. i have a pet unicorn at home but i can't show you because this little cutie is really shy

Considering all those effort and time sink to get your wallet finally blinky you're not anywhere near 440m/h.
And yes i did them too for quite some time when they were new and no informations about them available. Had to figure the blitzable out by my own.
Blitzable lvl 5 missions are great and a good income if you're living in low-sec and doing them now and then. Giving you decent money for less effort - perfect suited to pay for "other" low-sec activities.

Ps. To get ISK out of lvl 5 missions is comparable to mining. You mine ore not money. The moment you have the ore in your cargobay the hassle starts to convert it to money.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-05-31 07:51:58 UTC
Let me explain it for you as you are obviously a little bit "slow"

Mother Drone wrote:

No. Just no.
Yet again "those" sythetic calculations. If your spreadsheet doesn't show your real income you should exercise more with it.

Here some hints for your broken 440m/hour wannabe income:

- you "forgot" to include traveltimes between agents ... cherry picking blitzable missions leads to "a mission now and then" per agent (not 4 per hour)

I did not forget this. The average time on grid is around 5 minutes. This leaves you 7-10 minutes per mission to talk the the agent and get your ships into position. This may not seem like much if you are jumping around but if you have two agents in adjacent systems and 4 alts pulling missions that will drop in one of three systems, its not hard to get a decent route that minimizes travel time and swapping resistances.

Quote:

- you "forgot" the huge hassle and timesink to cash your LPs in ... taking some 30k LP offers from LP store just won't cut it

Yes, it is a timesink. That is why I would cash out once a month for around 20 million LP.

Quote:

- tag requiring LP offers? no because most tags are outragious expensive and the final item (i guess built from a BPC?) is still not more than 1000 isk/LP in most cases

If you are not putting the cost of tags into your spreadsheet them you are stupider than you appear . . . which is saying something
Quote:

- btw. how accounts do you use?

I mission with 4 accounts. How many eve accounts do I have? I rarely have more than 8 windows open at a time.
Quote:

- you "forgot" downtimes due to hostile players in lvl 5 areas - which are quite busy systems

If you need to worry about hostile players in low sec then you are just plain bad . . .
On grid for 4 minutes
fly T1 ships
Get to know the locals
You will loose maybe 3-4 ships/year to other players.
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-05-31 07:54:55 UTC
Mother Drone wrote:

- lvl 5 agents belong to crappy-LP-shop-corps ... you have to look VERY closely to even find 1 or 2 offers that yield you more or equal to 1000 isk/LP

Like I said my magic spreadsheet points to over 30 items today that sell for more than 1000 isk/Lp
From the caldari Navy shop alone.
Buying all components (Tags. T1 items, whatever the LP store requires) from buy orders

Caldari Navy Heavy Missile Launcher
Caldari Navy Heavy Assault Missile Launcher
Caldari Navy Co-Processor
Caldari Navy EM Ward Amplifier
Caldari Navy Medium Shield Booster
Small Railgun Specialization
Medium Blaster Specialization
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Caldari Navy Lead Charge L
Caldari Navy Lead Charge M
Caldari Navy Lead Charge S

Need I continue with the other 3 LP stores?

Quote:

- if you found indeed an offer with more/equal than 1000 isk/h (just the offer without deeper considerations which i'm currently doing) than there is no way to use it for cashing in huge amounts of LPs

A quick check of one of my alts shows 23 L5 storylines
Spread that out the my 6 Alts that pulled missions and its equal to 2208 L5 missions.
Lets make a rough guess of 95K LP/mission so that's around 210 Million LP
I had NO PROBLEM unloading that at above 1000 ISK/LP. Probably averaged more like 1300 ISK/LP

Quote:

- isk/LP ratio is down the toilet since broken FW farming and incredible cheap FW LP shop offers (was decreasing even before already)

How many examples do I have to give you before you understand that you can unload 10's of Millions of LP per month at over 1000 ISK/LP?

Quote:

- btw. i have a pet unicorn at home but i can't show you because this little cutie is really shy

Considering all those effort and time sink to get your wallet finally blinky you're not anywhere near 440m/h.
And yes i did them too for quite some time when they were new and no informations about them available. Had to figure the blitzable out by my own.
Blitzable lvl 5 missions are great and a good income if you're living in low-sec and doing them now and then. Giving you decent money for less effort - perfect suited to pay for "other" low-sec activities.

Ps. To get ISK out of lvl 5 missions is comparable to mining. You mine ore not money. The moment you have the ore in your cargobay the hassle starts to convert it to money.


Run a good system, have good spreadsheets, have a jita alt that you update once every couple of days and yes you will get somewhere near 440m/h

Just because you were incapable of setting up a good system does not mean it is impossible. Sadly for you, it just takes a little more smarts than you were gifted with.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#26 - 2013-05-31 18:38:36 UTC
440 mil an hour on your best day not including the selling time, yes. 440 mil an hour sustained, no ******* way.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Fango Mango
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-05-31 22:02:36 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
440 mil an hour on your best day not including the selling time, yes. 440 mil an hour sustained, no ******* way.


No, 4 missions per hour is more like an average to below average day.

On your best day its 8 missions per hour and a 1.2 Billion Faction Implant as well.

Again, I've run thousands of L5s, and I can say from experience that running 4 missions per/hour is easy.

Do you have anything to add other than you have never blitzed Level 5s, probably never even run L5s, but are still an expert on how they are run?

-FM
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#28 - 2013-06-01 05:49:15 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
440 mil an hour on your best day not including the selling time, yes. 440 mil an hour sustained, no ******* way.


No, 4 missions per hour is more like an average to below average day.

On your best day its 8 missions per hour and a 1.2 Billion Faction Implant as well.

Again, I've run thousands of L5s, and I can say from experience that running 4 missions per/hour is easy.

Do you have anything to add other than you have never blitzed Level 5s, probably never even run L5s, but are still an expert on how they are run?

-FM


Based on the numbers given and the market data available in game, its a foregone conclusion. A 1.2 bil faction implant that takes 2 days to sell is not 1.2 bil in an hour, its 1.2 bil over 48 hours.

A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
SidtheKid100
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#29 - 2013-07-13 10:29:57 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Fango Mango wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
440 mil an hour on your best day not including the selling time, yes. 440 mil an hour sustained, no ******* way.


No, 4 missions per hour is more like an average to below average day.

On your best day its 8 missions per hour and a 1.2 Billion Faction Implant as well.

Again, I've run thousands of L5s, and I can say from experience that running 4 missions per/hour is easy.

Do you have anything to add other than you have never blitzed Level 5s, probably never even run L5s, but are still an expert on how they are run?

-FM


Based on the numbers given and the market data available in game, its a foregone conclusion. A 1.2 bil faction implant that takes 2 days to sell is not 1.2 bil in an hour, its 1.2 bil over 48 hours.

A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.




Are you really considering the amount of time it takes for the item to sell, when he very well isn't going to be at the keyboard for those 48 hours? Why would time the item spends in a sell order count towards the ISK/hour factor? The 'time' that you are using in the ISK/hour calculations should stop as soon as that item hits the sell order, as long as the item actually ends up being sold, of course. xD

I find his 400mil/hour estimate across several accounts very reasonable, considering the amount of research he seems to have put into it, and the time he spends cashing out.

But one thing is for sure...you need to rethink your math.

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I prefer posting with my main.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#30 - 2013-07-13 18:03:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Cipher Jones
SidtheKid100 wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Fango Mango wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
440 mil an hour on your best day not including the selling time, yes. 440 mil an hour sustained, no ******* way.


No, 4 missions per hour is more like an average to below average day.

On your best day its 8 missions per hour and a 1.2 Billion Faction Implant as well.

Again, I've run thousands of L5s, and I can say from experience that running 4 missions per/hour is easy.

Do you have anything to add other than you have never blitzed Level 5s, probably never even run L5s, but are still an expert on how they are run?

-FM


Based on the numbers given and the market data available in game, its a foregone conclusion. A 1.2 bil faction implant that takes 2 days to sell is not 1.2 bil in an hour, its 1.2 bil over 48 hours.

A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.




Are you really considering the amount of time it takes for the item to sell, when he very well isn't going to be at the keyboard for those 48 hours? Why would time the item spends in a sell order count towards the ISK/hour factor? The 'time' that you are using in the ISK/hour calculations should stop as soon as that item hits the sell order, as long as the item actually ends up being sold, of course. xD

I find his 400mil/hour estimate across several accounts very reasonable, considering the amount of research he seems to have put into it, and the time he spends cashing out.

But one thing is for sure...you need to rethink your math.


You need to take a look at the market. Those big ticket items dont sell every day. If you consider big ticket items as part of the payout and you aren't considering not getting the payout every time you get one (again, this can be verified in game easily) its not accurate.

And yes, I am considering the time it takes to sell things. People don't say "I make a hundred dollars an hour" selling a one hundred dollar (profit) item on ebay. That implies that you make 200k a year when you say 100 an hour. If you sell one of those items every hour for the entire work year you make 200k. Otherwise, you don't.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-07-13 18:30:20 UTC
Fango Mango wrote:
On your best day its 8 missions per hour and a 1.2 Billion Faction Implant as well.


I don't know how you got the implant, so i assume you got it from a mission somehow...

You are saying you make 440M pr. hour, which does imply you are getting the implant every hour. It's kind of the same as saying, if you can make 1.2B of one mission and do 8 missions each hour you are making 9B an hour. If would be more precise to take a longer period of time look at the total income and time used, to calculate the isk pr. hour, and note the maximum and minimum values.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Lilan Kahn
The Littlest Hobos
The Whale Hunters Association
#32 - 2013-07-13 19:08:10 UTC
runing missions in 0.0 is some of the best isk you can make
Darco Aldent
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-07-13 19:11:30 UTC
400 million/h sounds reasonable for a vetteran mission runner with many l5 agents . If you accept the fact he did 2000 missions you can not contest his experience and the numbers he provides.
Josef Djugashvilis
#34 - 2013-07-13 19:29:06 UTC
I just love these - I earn X per hour with my Y number of alts.

Darn, most of them can get and complete missions faster than I can warp to the missions site..

The I earn X per hour running level 4s with my 1.5 million skill points in my T1 frigate are even better.

I have never actually met one in game, and I know a fair few mission runners, but they sure as hell seem to be alive and earning fabulous isk per hour in the forums.

This is not a signature.
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#35 - 2013-07-14 12:48:30 UTC
I earn 1 Million Isk per second... for the one second it takes me to click sell.

In other terms, according to mission wiz over there I make Gagillions for month, probably even when I am not logged in or Subbed. Roll
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-07-15 11:36:48 UTC
Now you guys are just trolling.

As long as the item sells, the time spent in the sell order unattended by him is irrelevant. The profit is the same whether it sells 1 second later or 89 days later. Also, he did not claim his 400m isk/hour number was based on the sale of implants at all, that was just a nice random bonus that he gets sometimes.

The only claim I'm skeptical about here is his claim that he can blitz L5 missions in 5 minutes with T1 ships. I'm sure that works for a minor few, but you can't just keep declining the missions you don't like without eventually trashing your standings to the point where you can't run anymore missions. If you have to wait out a 4-hour decline timer then that does cut into your ISK/hour number.
King Aires
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-07-15 11:46:08 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Now you guys are just trolling.

As long as the item sells, the time spent in the sell order unattended by him is irrelevant. The profit is the same whether it sells 1 second later or 89 days later. Also, he did not claim his 400m isk/hour number was based on the sale of implants at all, that was just a nice random bonus that he gets sometimes.

The only claim I'm skeptical about here is his claim that he can blitz L5 missions in 5 minutes with T1 ships. I'm sure that works for a minor few, but you can't just keep declining the missions you don't like without eventually trashing your standings to the point where you can't run anymore missions. If you have to wait out a 4-hour decline timer then that does cut into your ISK/hour number.


And if you have ever tried to sell something in Jita, especially competitive items like LP reward items then you would know you have to constantly adjust your orders to get them to sell

Conversely if you are going to make said LP items and need tags, you have to constantly adjust said buy orders.

Nothing in Eve is truly ever passive, and nothing comes without opportunity costs.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#38 - 2013-07-15 12:24:53 UTC
King Aires wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
Now you guys are just trolling.

As long as the item sells, the time spent in the sell order unattended by him is irrelevant. The profit is the same whether it sells 1 second later or 89 days later. Also, he did not claim his 400m isk/hour number was based on the sale of implants at all, that was just a nice random bonus that he gets sometimes.

The only claim I'm skeptical about here is his claim that he can blitz L5 missions in 5 minutes with T1 ships. I'm sure that works for a minor few, but you can't just keep declining the missions you don't like without eventually trashing your standings to the point where you can't run anymore missions. If you have to wait out a 4-hour decline timer then that does cut into your ISK/hour number.


And if you have ever tried to sell something in Jita, especially competitive items like LP reward items then you would know you have to constantly adjust your orders to get them to sell

Conversely if you are going to make said LP items and need tags, you have to constantly adjust said buy orders.

Nothing in Eve is truly ever passive, and nothing comes without opportunity costs.


Uh, if you lowball the lowest price in Jita by 10% it basically never fails to sell. So you make 1150 ISK per LP instead of 1300, if you can really run 4 L5s in an hour you'll easily clear 400m/hour with that.
Nuela
WoT Misfits
#39 - 2013-07-25 19:02:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nuela
Prototype SV-17 wrote:
Are there greater LP and ISK rewards in lower security space?

If so, by what factor is LP greater in low and null sec compared to high sec, respectively? Is it worth the extra danger?

I was going to mission for Mordu's Legion (since I already have the highest standing with them), but they are deep in null. With interdiction sphere and the extra travel time spent circumventing campers, having gankers drop in during PvE fights and whatnot it doesn't seem like it can be worthwhile without huge bonuses in ISK and LP. Low sec being only slightly better with the exclusion of bubble camps.

Is it worthwhile or should I just stick to high sec?




Haven't read the other responses...but Ihave done both at one time in my career.

Short answer - no.

Low sec -

If you choose right and bring an alt to watch gates you jump through you can make about as much as you can make in hisec. If you COULD mission in low like you do in hisec you would make more, but you can't. You have to use a lesser expesnive ship (and so won't clear missions as fast) and you will occasionally lose a ship. You will sometimes be camped in a station...so all be equal you will make about the same as in hisec.

It's worth trying just for the novelty but from a pure logical risk/reqard decision, it isn't worth it.

Null sec -

Well, considering you are missioning in 'friendly' pirate space (blue to the powers that be...it is still dangerous. There will be neuts that cruise through and they can dock at the same station as you. This is where the can get ya - watch for you to jump in system and they know the direction - pop out of station and put up a bubble....nab ya..redock. So it is not very safe. YOu also need to have eyes on the other side of any jump as you can be bubbled. Another fav tactic is for them to set up a bubble between gates in station....so never fly in a straight line.

All that said, it pays less than hisec all things considered. Pirate LP is neat and my alt took 2 Nightmare BPC's from doing this (I know, I know - much better lp to isk items there like implants) but pirate LP, surprisingly, is not worth as much isk as you think....PLUS you need to get it to hisec.

While you tend not to be camped as long in pirate space (friendly blues will eventually respond to camps) you will have watch out for station games and other bubbly traps and you will lose ships. So, again, you make more...but you need to fly not as shiney a ship as you can in Hisec and will have to waste more time dooing things that are simple in hisec.

Of the 2, Lowsec probably pays more, all things considered, but that is about what you make in hisec.


=====

Do both! I highly recommend it for the experience. :) Just don't think you will make tons more isk.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#40 - 2013-07-26 08:17:12 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Now you guys are just trolling.

As long as the item sells, the time spent in the sell order unattended by him is irrelevant. The profit is the same whether it sells 1 second later or 89 days later. Also, he did not claim his 400m isk/hour number was based on the sale of implants at all, that was just a nice random bonus that he gets sometimes.

The only claim I'm skeptical about here is his claim that he can blitz L5 missions in 5 minutes with T1 ships. I'm sure that works for a minor few, but you can't just keep declining the missions you don't like without eventually trashing your standings to the point where you can't run anymore missions. If you have to wait out a 4-hour decline timer then that does cut into your ISK/hour number.


Missing the point here. If you have one item and it sells 89 days later then the second item you sell wont sell til at least 89 days later ETC ETC.

In other words the frequency at which you gain has to be equal to or less than the frequency at which you sell or you will never be able to sell your LP at that conversion rate.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
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