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Bounty System

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Galdor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-08-01 02:54:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Galdor
Malcanis wrote:
Galdor wrote:
@Nikk:

Essentially you are right. Those exploiting the current bounty system are using it as a weapon against those they cannot openly attack as freely as they would like since those players they target do not normally stoop to their level.



You have succintly described what a bounty system is for.


No. You have proven you did not read CCP's own description of what the bounty system is intended for at the link I provided and quoted. That being that fair retribution for actions leading to consequences based on those actions. None of that is being done when bounties are falsely placed based on mere words posted in a chat channel.

This right here is the main problem of these forums. There is entirely too much childish rhetoric thrown about by many who apparently are not able to understand the significance of properly cited comments made and their implications validating a person's point.

How can anyone expect anything to be resolved via the CSMs here if they themselves cannot perform as CCP has stated the purpose of a CSM is. All I have seen so far is biased, snide remarks that come off as them remaining indifferent toward the playerbase as a whole that may or may not have voted for them.

"The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires active engagement with the player community to master EVE issue awareness, understanding, and evaluation in the context of the greatest good for the greater player base."

http://community.eveonline.com/community/csm/
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#102 - 2013-08-01 05:59:49 UTC
My position on this issue was very clear long before I was elected. I would be doing those who voted for a gross disservice by changing my mind without a far more powerful argument than "a bloo bloo someone put a bounty on me".

Talking (or typing) are both verbs; they are actions. It is ridiculous to say that "mere words" cannot be sufficient motivation for revenge and punishment when even a cursory glance at history shows that they most certainly can. Or even the news; I'm pretty sure that Mr Bradley and Mr Snowden could both provide you with a very definite opinion on the subject.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#103 - 2013-08-04 08:23:21 UTC
I'll try and put this in a way you can't possibly misunderstand:

NO.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Galdor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2013-08-04 20:15:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Galdor
Malcanis, why do you assume I would expect you to take this important issue to CCP? I never said that once. Thankfully, you are not the only CSM member and that your 'term' is limited.

Especially given the fact I already pointed out, you do not seem to even comprehend the stated purpose of a CSM that CCP posted and you severely lack any kind of social skills on top of the inability to comprehend the difference between objective and subjective proof apparently.

It is also mildly interesting, how other certain posters continue posting and helping to bump the thread. Even though they already proved as well that they are apparently not able to comprehend that a dystopian sandbox =/= anarchy.

The fact that they automatically chose such hate-mongering tactics is proof enough for the necessity for morality mechanics in-game. Every single open-pvp MMO has proven this time and again, it is no different in EVE Online either.

Granted, there are seedy types within the lore of EVE. However there is nowhere near the large unregulated scale of anarchy that those few claim exist in the lore. I would post links to quotes of that evidence, however, those posters have proven an inability to concede being wrong so far and insist on pure trolling at this point so I won't bother.

Regardless of the trolls and the egomaniacal Malcanis, it does not make the issue of exploited bounties magically vanish. Especially given the fact the number of players that post on these forums are nowhere near the representative consensus of players who play EVE Online. I have been in EVE for over ten years now, staying the course and playing the same way based on the same ideals, and I will be here another 10 years as well doing the same.

This bounty issue is only a recent problem with the latest expansion, so it is not irreparable and certainly not wholly representative of the usual nature of EVE based on it's short exposure in-game so far.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#105 - 2013-08-04 21:26:48 UTC
Ah the classic "everyone hates my idea, that proves it's good" line.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#106 - 2013-08-04 23:30:52 UTC
Galdor wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Galdor wrote:
@Nikk:

Essentially you are right. Those exploiting the current bounty system are using it as a weapon against those they cannot openly attack as freely as they would like since those players they target do not normally stoop to their level.



You have succintly described what a bounty system is for.


No. You have proven you did not read CCP's own description of what the bounty system is intended for at the link I provided and quoted. That being that fair retribution for actions leading to consequences based on those actions. None of that is being done when bounties are falsely placed based on mere words posted in a chat channel.


In allowing players to place a bounty for whatever reason they wish, rather than restricting bounty placement only as a response to a handful of "actions", CCP made the wise decision to respect the sandbox and interfere with it as little as possible.

This is a good thing. Sorry if you disagree.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Galdor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2013-08-05 19:23:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Galdor
@mynnna:

I would not expect you to agree with anything that is not anarchistic given either of your history. As far as respecting the sandbox goes, as I pointed out previously, no other MMO has ever been able to sustain profitability by allowing anarchistic behavior to rule supreme in a game. Every single other open-pvp that started out as anarchistic has had to revamp their game completely to allow for a balance of playstyles.

@Malcanis:

My posts have been about facts and objective logic, not subjective opinion and personal condescension which discredits any sort of valid argument. If by using proper grammar and fundamental tactics of stating an argument is considered classic, then I accept the compliment.

Fortunately as I pointed out yesterday, CSM 'terms' are limited. It also helps that since CCP is so apt to re-adding useless ship spinning features to the game, fixing the exploited bounty system is definitely more likely to occur inevitably due to it being a much more useful feature in the preservation of the playstyle population balance.

Additionally, the fact that none of the naysayers still haven't admitted the fact, as I said earlier, that EVE requires a balance of 'carebears' and 'pvpers' is also added proof in your inability to grasp the facts. As a result of the new bounty changes, it only caters to the pvpers who want to force everyone to pvp and offsets the balance of the playstyles in EVE.

By the way, Shahfluffers and his corp pal, Gritz1, recently helped to prove further the bounty system is being exploited by their adding bounties on myself when they have had zero interaction with me in-game. They are solely basing their dislike for my right to post here in the forums as an excuse to abuse the system.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#108 - 2013-08-06 09:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Galdor wrote:
By the way, Shahfluffers and his corp pal, Gritz1, recently helped to prove further the bounty system is being exploited by their adding bounties on myself when they have had zero interaction with me in-game. They are solely basing their dislike for my right to post here in the forums as an excuse to abuse the system.
Well to be fair, your posting and attitude towards others leaves a lot to be desired. I'm surprised your bounty isn't far higher tbh and what they have done, is a perfectly valid use of the bounty system. If you could actually point out the abuse, not based on what you think is a good or bad reason to use it, then go ahead.

But I'm sure as always, your argument will boil down to this: You wanting to decide, what is and isn't a good reason for a bounty. In a sandbox game that isn't going to happen. but thanks for posting.

Oh and bump. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#109 - 2013-08-06 09:21:31 UTC
Galdor wrote:


@Malcanis:

My posts have been about facts and objective logic, not subjective opinion


Yeah like the way that you were super objective about the FACT of Snowden and Manning being punished for "mere words"?

You're literally the king of subjective opinion.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#110 - 2013-08-06 09:48:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Galdor wrote:
They are solely basing their dislike for my right to post here in the forums as an excuse to abuse the system.


This is an excellent use (not abuse) of the bounty system, perfectly mirrored in the real world, as if that matters.

Or are you going to claim that's a "subjective opinion" too?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#111 - 2013-08-06 11:21:22 UTC
I have deleted some pointless bickering from this thread.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
Sephira Galamore
Inner Beard Society
Kvitravn.
#112 - 2013-08-06 15:15:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sephira Galamore
Galdor wrote:
By the way, Shahfluffers and his corp pal, Gritz1, recently helped to prove further the bounty system is being exploited by their adding bounties on myself when they have had zero interaction with me in-game. They are solely basing their dislike for my right to post here in the forums as an excuse to abuse the system.
It has even been suggested to add a bounty button to the forums, by the previous CSM chairman no less:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=180960

Seleene wrote:
Bounty Hunting session at the CSM Summit - I brought this up one minute in. Not one frown in the room. Lots of smiles. I think this may actually happen but, "No promises." They have to say that but... I'd wager we are going to see it at some point.
;)
Galdor
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2013-08-06 16:14:08 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Galdor wrote:
They are solely basing their dislike for my right to post here in the forums as an excuse to abuse the system.


This is an excellent use (not abuse) of the bounty system, perfectly mirrored in the real world, as if that matters.

Or are you going to claim that's a "subjective opinion" too?


It is not a claim, it is a fact that you obviously do not understand what a subjective opinion is.

Simply put, you are stating that persecuting a player for posting an opinion is in line with CCP's objective for the bounty system, which is false. That is because an opinion is not an action and therefore not in line with CCP's own statement on the purpose of the bounty system.

Nowhere in the definition of the word 'action' does it state that an opinion is an action, which is what I am being persecuted for. Which by the way is illegal in most countries if you want to make false claims that persecution in the real world for an opinion based on existing laws and freedoms is somehow in itself illegal is absurd to say the least.

As far as the continued threats go on about adding bounties go, those only further prove my stance that the system is being exploited based on the facts, not opinion. Just as I keep having to bring up, CCP themselves said that one of the purposes of the change in the bounty system was:

"To build upon the theme of the expansion of strengthening ties between actions and consequences, including making the company you keep a factor in that"

http://www.eveonline.com/retribution/bounty-hunting/

That being the case, an opinion, just to help refresh your memories, is NOT an action based on the dictionary definition.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/action

Therefore an opinion should not be allowed to be used in EVE as an exploited premise to seek retribution. To deny the facts is pure ignorance and anarchistic.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#114 - 2013-08-06 17:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Galdor wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Galdor wrote:
They are solely basing their dislike for my right to post here in the forums as an excuse to abuse the system.


This is an excellent use (not abuse) of the bounty system, perfectly mirrored in the real world, as if that matters.

Or are you going to claim that's a "subjective opinion" too?


It is not a claim, it is a fact that you obviously do not understand what a subjective opinion is.

Simply put, you are stating that persecuting a player for posting an opinion is in line with CCP's objective for the bounty system, which is false. That is because an opinion is not an action and therefore not in line with CCP's own statement on the purpose of the bounty system.

Nowhere in the definition of the word 'action' does it state that an opinion is an action, which is what I am being persecuted for. Which by the way is illegal in most countries if you want to make false claims that persecution in the real world for an opinion based on existing laws and freedoms is somehow in itself illegal is absurd to say the least.

As far as the continued threats go on about adding bounties go, those only further prove my stance that the system is being exploited based on the facts, not opinion. Just as I keep having to bring up, CCP themselves said that one of the purposes of the change in the bounty system was:

"To build upon the theme of the expansion of strengthening ties between actions and consequences, including making the company you keep a factor in that"

http://www.eveonline.com/retribution/bounty-hunting/

That being the case, an opinion, just to help refresh your memories, is NOT an action based on the dictionary definition.
http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/action

Therefore an opinion should not be allowed to be used in EVE as an exploited premise to seek retribution. To deny the facts is pure ignorance and anarchistic.


  1. Please prove that giving someone a bounty for something they typed, is 'persecuting a player'.

  2. If the act of typing a comment on either the forums or in game is not an action, then what is?


Even your American English link states it's both:
the fact or process of doing something, typically to achieve an aim
AND
a thing done; an act.

Sounds like typing to me and in Eve, actions have consequences. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#115 - 2013-08-06 17:54:17 UTC
Galdor wrote:


Simply put, you are stating that persecuting a player for posting an opinion is in line with CCP's objective for the bounty system, which is false.


Not it's true.

but only if you go by things that CCP devs actually say, which according to you carries no weight.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#116 - 2013-08-06 18:48:17 UTC
Quote:

Additionally, the fact that none of the naysayers still haven't admitted the fact, as I said earlier, that EVE requires a balance of 'carebears' and 'pvpers' is also added proof in your inability to grasp the facts. As a result of the new bounty changes, it only caters to the pvpers who want to force everyone to pvp and offsets the balance of the playstyles in EVE.


Ahh the good ol "we build your ships argument. What I think these people fail to realise is that for example I am a PvPer AND I have industrial alts. You may be surprised how many of those "people who build things are pvpers in masks

Quote:
By the way, Shahfluffers and his corp pal, Gritz1, recently helped to prove further the bounty system is being exploited by their adding bounties on myself when they have had zero interaction with me in-game. They are solely basing their dislike for my right to post here in the forums as an excuse to abuse the system.


Hahahaha brilliant

Quote:
Nowhere in the definition of the word 'action' does it state that an opinion is an action, which is what I am being persecuted for. Which by the way is illegal in most countries if you want to make false claims that persecution in the real world for an opinion based on existing laws and freedoms is somehow in itself illegal is absurd to say the least.



And now we have argument by semantic. Never once have I seen this win as it usually means all other attempts at wheedling the point lost.

Personally I think if you insult someone, either verbally straight out or by acting as if there opinion is wrong, then they should be able to exercise a little revenge.

CCP we need a forum bounty button now!

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-08-06 20:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
There is only one appropriate way to respond to anyone complaining about the bounty system.

I'm sure you all know what it is.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#118 - 2013-08-06 20:07:40 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
There is only one way to respond to anyone complaining about the bounty system.

I'm sure you all know what it is.


The bountry system is horrible and putting bounties on people is horrible illegal abuse as you will all find when I consult a real grown up lawyer who will in no way laugh so hard that he actually throws up a little and has to skip lunch

*waits patiently

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#119 - 2013-08-06 20:08:48 UTC
Hey Malcanis, about putting the 'Add Bounty' button next to the 'Like' button on the forums...

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#120 - 2013-08-06 20:20:23 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Hey Malcanis, about putting the 'Add Bounty' button next to the 'Like' button on the forums...


It was a good idea with CCP Punkturis suggested it and it's a good idea now.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016