Assembly Hall

@Shafluffers:

"Whether people put bounties on others for their own egotistical reasons is not something you can say is "bad" though. It's a perfectly valid reason to those people who do it. "

Wrong again, those exploiting the bounty system are using it as an excuse, not a reason. There is a very big difference. That being that a reason is explained through purpose as a valid course of action. While an excuse is a petty effort to remove liability or blame for a course of action. Which fits the exploiters more perfectly since they care nothing for the repercussions of their actions.

"There is a man who lives in California who would beg to differ with you on that point."

You have some nerve trying to post that as any kind of proof of anything given that if you actually looked into that issue, you would find recently it is being pushed that he is being imprisoned wrongly and will be released because it is a FACT that his video, not audio as you are trying to twist it, had nothing to do with the attack in Benghazi. You really were stretching this point trying to claim he was imprisoned for something he said which btw is scheduled for release since he was actually only there for a probation violation, NOT a bounty.

Actually I have not gone wrong on the topic of morality mechanics because it has been proven time and again, that when given too much reign, players are not responsible enough in a sandbox not to try to create total anarchy which in every single instance in history causes a collapse of civilization which is not what CCP wants or the game will end up being shut down due to the lack of "carebears" since the ignorant masses of PvPrs don't comprehend it takes both types of gameplay to sustain the economy.

That being said, it does inf act need morality control to some degree through mechanics in the game. You mention being able to place a bounty on something offensive which is a best case scenario at best. What I am referring to is the ego-maniacal many who place bounties on other players on a pure whim for reasons even less substantial than that.

There is always a correct version of morality, this is not a discussion about religion so don't bother taking it there. There are universal right and wrongs that must exist in every culture and society, this has been proven time and again. http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/cultural-relativism.htm

@Mag:

I am not side-stepping anything because for whatever reason you like reading me type the words, go read it yourself and quit being lazy?

ToS like many legal documents are created in the effect that they cover a large scope and can never be 100% specific especially in MMOs given that content is always being created, therefore it has to be flexible or it is useless. In the event such as an exploit of the bounty system is not used to serve any kind of justice and instead is used as a tool to bully and pressure other gamers to circumvent their playstyle and language to suit the desires of the aggressor it becomes pure harassment and therefore in violation of rules in the ToS.

When there are no clear checks in place to prevent a player from placing a bounty on someone due to something typed in chat, that is not a legal system, that is anarchistic at best.

When I said 'X' can be chosen as a good reason, I am basing that not off of what I think, I said it is based off of RL systems, systems in place in RL that actually work effectively. As far as CCP and bounty invention goes, legality is not apart of it naturally, but legitimacy certainly does.

Actually yes people posting about a problem does in fact by default induct that there is a problem whether you chose to acknowledge it or not. Your denial of the problem does not make something stop existing or make it any less valid. Granted it might not be as popular of a topic as it should be considering the widespread ramifications this exploited system will cause for EVE in the long run, the ignorant many are good at avoiding the obvious until it's too late usually.

And just as you avoid acknowledging the issue, you still avoid seeing or bother reading in this instance my past posts in this specific thread since you keep misquoting me and taking words out of context. So that being the case since you insist on belligerence in not bothering to effectively debate the topic I will not be replying or acknowledging your future comments, Mag.

I have been in the game for over ten years (beta too), I doubt I am the one in the wrong game. Sandbox =/= Anarchy

@Shahfluffers:

"See... now we're going in circles again."

No, you are going in circles because you keep trying to simplify the issue by thinking I am breaking this down as right and wrong. You have posted that same comment several times in this thread. It doesn't become more true or fit the argument the more times you post it. I never said anything about right and wrong at all. What I did say was there is a difference between excuse and reason. Right and wrong deal in ethics which are culturally specific which again, is not what I am talking about. Morality mechanics are based on morals, which are universal across cultures.

Again, when I use the terms valid, I am not basing that off of my personal opinion, you keep trying to make it sound like I am pulling this perspective out of thin air. Valid is based off of real systems in the real world that have worked for centuries. This is not the wild west where a person is allowed to shoot a person for snoring. EVE is supposed to be the far future where we supposedly have advanced considerably.

About the man imprisoned over the film, I already stated you were incorrect about his status. He was imprisoned over a violated probation only, there was no bounty and he is already scheduled for release in the near future. Therefore it is not a valid point in this discussion.


"Except the bounty mechanics won't cause all that (or have caused any of that in the 7-8 months they have been active)."

There have already been trends starting where as I have stated on page 3 that no one can freely say anything in any chat channel without the extremely high chance they will receive a bounty and have their gameplay affected because of it. This has happened to lots of players and some have left the game due to it. Some think that is fine and they are ignorant for it because anyone who knows EVE, knows dam well it takes both Carebears and PvPers to make EVE work. Without one or the other and the game would go stagnant and the market would crash completely.

Your not agreeing with me does not make a correct version of morality that is universal , "un-universal." It proves nothing except that you apparently support anarchistic beliefs and go against what is universally acceptable, which is of course your right to play how you choose.

However, CCP has shown through their videos, lore and novels time and again that New Eden is about a hopeful future in that humanity will be able to rise from the ashes and survive the harshness of current events. Wild West idiotic bounty placement for mere words exchanged hardly sounds like the hopeful future for humanity according to CCP's vision.

Underlined conflicting statements. Morals inherently deal with proper and improper behavior... the difference between right and wrong. Which differs from person to person.

I see no problem with putting a bounty on someone out of spite. You do. We will never come to agreement on this.
However you are trying to take away a freedom I enjoy... so I will fight your efforts to curtail it.


You mean like the "real systems" of bounty placing that I showed through various articles? Systems that are/were much less structured, bloody, and spiteful than anything we have in EVE?


Actually... yes... EVE is more like the Wild West than you think it is.

This is a "future" filled with greed, economic poverty, bribery, soulless economics, back-stabbing, slavery, terrorists, suicide bombers, super spies, prostitution, psychopaths, tribal/factional infighting, torture, mass murder, genocide, drug dealing, extortion, blackmail, genetic manipulation, "living death," anarchy, Orwellian security, etc. etc.

Obviously we are either not reading the same lore or interpreting it the same way.


Read what I said VERY carefully.

I, in no way, said that his imprisonment had anything to do with his film (it had nothing to do with it). And yes... there was a bounty for his head... placed upon him by a Pakistani politician... in the order of 10k USD... due to being "offended" by the film (which, again, had nothing to do with his imprisonment).

So yes... if you want EVE to be more like the real world... it's a very valid point to this discussion.


Which, again, proves that the "correct version" of morality is not as universal as you are making it out to be.

Believe it or not... some people think and perceive the world differently than you do. And forcing YOUR version (or what you perceive to be a "valid" version) of what is "correct" does not jive with the concept of a sandbox... which is anarchistic at its core (see: anyone if free to do what they want, but other players are allowed to do the same thing for better or wose).

To claim morality is objective rather than subjective, is to deny the existence of cultures and societies where different moral values exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism

Welcome to that debate.

Good lord, are people still wasting time with this?

Since when is making the use of the assembly hall for voicing matters that concern players a waste of time? Never. It is fairly odd a CSM of all people would say something as biased as that. The last time I checked, CSMs are to serve the players as liaisons to CCP due to their being elected by the players. Not make snide comments when a player makes use of their own assembly hall forum.

@RoAnnon:
Fairness was brought up because fairness was in CCP's direct quote is why.


On a similar note it boggles my mind also that CCP just last year made it very clear after the 2012 fanfest panel bullying incident that CCP does not endorse harassment in any form, yet the new bounty system is exactly that, a bully enabler.

“I want to reassure you that CCP in no way condones the harassment of players, especially those who suffer from depression or suicidal thoughts, as we understand the possible consequences of such abhorrent behavior,” CCP’s Ned Coker said."

Good to see Galdor still clutching at straws and involving an unrelated quote from CCP.

Let me show you some quotes, that are related to bounties.

@Nikk:

Essentially you are right. Those exploiting the current bounty system are using it as a weapon against those they cannot openly attack as freely as they would like since those players they target do not normally stoop to their level.

Stoop to their level? I take it then you have never won at a game of chess then, as you wouldn't stoop so low as to be involved in regicide.

But you are correct, it is a weapon but a rather blunt one at that. But it is working as intended.