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Bounty System

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Svarii
Acclimatization
#1 - 2013-05-29 23:37:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Svarii
100K Bounty on ANYONE Issue
I feel that there is an issue with the current game mechanics regarding the bounty system

Current game mechanics state:
"The minimum ISK amount for placing a bounty is increased from 5k to 100k. Also, bounties can now be placed on anyone, we’re removing the -1 security standing requirement currently in the bounty system."
This:"Bounties have no effect on who can be attacked legally where." Does not matter with the above as it is.

This allows players to camp out in NPC corp and help channels and place bounties on ANYONE for ANY or NO REASON at all. One of my favorite parts about this game has been how it strives to be 'real'. EVE IS REAL! And in the real world, you can't just place a bounty on ANY law abiding citizen whenever you feel like it.

Bounties for me used to be one of the simplest way (other than an active scam in progress) to spot a player who may be less than honest or a tad bit shady. The current mechanics make bounties a pathetic joke where half the universe is flying around with a 100K bounty on them, Their usefullness has been nearly negated for highsec players, while adding a way for station dwellers to grief, and it is targeted at players who are new, npc corp, or just those who dare to speak in an open channel. Not primarily a person who has wronged you, or another.

Additionally. This is detracting from the meanining of the WANTED status that used to be a badge of accomplishment for player pirates.

Simple Fix?
Player must have Criminal and/or suspect flag to be bountied if they have a positive security status.

Advanced Fix?
In addition to the simple fix suggested. The minimum bounty amount could be based on the characters security status. Higher security status = higher min bounty (and the player must be activley flagged as comitting an illegal act).

My primary concern is for individual pilots (especially the new players).

Final thought regarding corporation / alliance level bounties. In addition to the bounty, a kill right from a member might be good idea to include in the cost.

ADDITION: After getting some feedback ingame, players primary concern with this is not being able to bounty scammers. As much as we all love to hate them, technically, a scam is not an aggressive act, and no one made you click accept. Most non-pirate scammer use toons anways and are easily spotted.

Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1fb1et/help_fix_bounty_mechanics/

Deny Pirates the Use of Implants
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#2 - 2013-05-30 02:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: mechtech
You are making assumption that bounties are only used to catch pirates who actively go out and kill non-war targets in high/low sec space.

Bounties are also used on war targets with high sec status, political/market enemies, corp thieves, people who insulted you in chat, or even just to **** with somebody because you don't like them. There are countless ways to do "bad things", you can't simply tie bounties to sec status.

In addition, bounties aren't designed to punish "bad" players, it's a system to put a price on someone's head for whatever reason a player sees fit. Imagine playing Eve as a career pirate. You have some annoying anti-pirates waltz into your territory, and in response you put a gigantic bounty on their corp and laugh as even neutral gangs passing through start to take a crack at them. This is an absolutely legitimate use of the system. Features must cater to all players, not just "good" players.

Aside from that poor suggestion, your other point stands true and has been pointed out many times.

I think the best fix is slow bounty reduction over time. 100k per week maybe. This would eventually dry up meaningless "troll" bounties while leaving any actually meaningful bounties virtually unchanged.

The "wanted" sign should also have a higher isk threshold, 1m or 10m, or perhaps color graded from white to blood red.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2013-05-30 02:24:04 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
You're 6 months late to the party. This subject has been beaten to death.

But I'll be nice.
Svarii wrote:
One of my favorite parts about this game has been how it strives to be 'real'. EVE IS REAL! And in the real world, you can't just place a bounty on ANY law abiding citizen whenever you feel like it.

Actually... the bounty system is more real in its current incarnation than it was before.

Svarii wrote:
Bounties for me used to be one of the simplest way (other than an active scam in progress) to spot a player who may be less than honest or a tad bit shady. ... (snip)... Their usefullness has been nearly negated for highsec players, while adding a way for station dwellers to grief, and it is targeted at players who are new, npc corp, or just those who dare to speak in an open channel. Not primarily a person who has wronged you, or another.

Law abiding =/= good person.

- AWOXers are, mechanically speaking, not breaking any rules.
- Corporate/Alliance traitors aren't doing anything "bad" from a technical standpoint.
- High-sec "griefer" corps follow the rules and declare war(s).
- Ninja Looters use the aggro system to legally engage people who are running their missions in high-sec.

One the flip side...
Low security status =/= troll/griefer/terrible person.

Such a person could be...
- an anti-pirate.
- went out to low-sec for a bit of PvP and nothing more.
- someone who was tricked into (or was accidentally) doing something stupid.


Who is good and who is bad are purely relative concepts. What you consider bad others don't, and vice versa. Who knows... maybe those people who are getting 100k bounties in those channels really are making someone mad.

A good RL example:
Some time ago a Pakistani official placed a $100,000 bounty on a "filmmaker" (please... he was an amateur at best) over a tasteless/inflamatory/controversial film.
The filmmaker had done anything wrong from a legal standpoint... all he did was create something perceived as an incredible insult to many, many people the world over.


Svarii wrote:
Additionally. This is detracting from the meanining of the WANTED status that used to be a badge of accomplishment for player pirates.

The "badge" has changed. Now it's bounty amounts. Twisted

Svarii wrote:
Player must have Criminal and/or suspect flag to be bountied if they have a positive security status.

How would this allow players who have committed "legal" crimes to have bounties placed on them?

Svarii wrote:
My primary concern is for individual pilots (especially the new players).

Teach them and they shall no longer be afraid.

How did you Veterans start?
Sajuuk Brutor
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-05-30 02:39:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Sajuuk Brutor
Bounties put on anyone is fine, they usually lose the 100k bounty when they lose a frig. Its how the top bounties are never collected...
How about we add an expiration on the bounties so they reverse back 90% to the person who set the bounty after a certain timeframe? So if they want to be the most wanted they have to cause the most trouble within the last 60 days or so.

(I mentioned this to market hub trolls that are proud of their bounty and they absolutely hated the idea.)
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-05-30 03:52:20 UTC
1) Option to hide "Wanted" sign for bounty below X amount.

2) Disable bounty completely on trial noobs. There's no reason for anyone to place bounty on them, aside from trying to scare and grief someone who can't even read overview properly.
Svarii
Acclimatization
#6 - 2013-05-30 04:09:30 UTC
mechtech wrote:
You are making assumption that bounties are only used to catch pirates who actively go out and kill non-war targets in high/low sec space.

Incorrect. I argue that a 'bounty hunter' is "One who pursues a criminal or fugitive for whom a reward is offered." Thus inferring that a 'bounty' should be limited to 'criminal or fugitives'

mechtech wrote:
Bounties are also used on war targets with high sec status, political/market enemies, corp thieves, people who insulted you in chat, or even just to **** with somebody because you don't like them. There are countless ways to do "bad things", you can't simply tie bounties to sec status.


Did no one consider the Mercenary Corps? This must be killing their business.

mechtech wrote:
In addition, bounties aren't designed to punish "bad" players, it's a system to put a price on someone's head for whatever reason a player sees fit. Imagine playing Eve as a career pirate. You have some annoying anti-pirates waltz into your territory, and in response you put a gigantic bounty on their corp and laugh as even neutral gangs passing through start to take a crack at them. This is an absolutely legitimate use of the system. Features must cater to all players, not just "good" players.


Again, Hire a Merc corp with that gigantic pile of ISK. They need to stay in business as well.

mechtech wrote:
I think the best fix is slow bounty reduction over time. 100k per week maybe. This would eventually dry up meaningless "troll" bounties while leaving any actually meaningful bounties virtually unchanged.

I think a small depletion rate is a very reasonable suggestion.

mechtech wrote:
The "wanted" sign should also have a higher isk threshold, 1m or 10m, or perhaps color graded from white to blood red.

I really like the color grade suggestion.

Deny Pirates the Use of Implants
Svarii
Acclimatization
#7 - 2013-05-30 04:10:57 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Actually... the bounty system is more real in its current incarnation than it was before.

100% Agreed, but not without it's issues.

ShahFluffers wrote:
Law abiding =/= good person.

Agreed.

ShahFluffers wrote:

- AWOXers are, mechanically speaking, not breaking any rules.
- Corporate/Alliance traitors aren't doing anything "bad" from a technical standpoint.
- High-sec "griefer" corps follow the rules and declare war(s).
- Ninja Looters use the aggro system to legally engage people who are running their missions in high-sec.

Use the money to hire Mercenaries.

ShahFluffers wrote:

One the flip side...
Low security status =/= troll/griefer/terrible person.

Agreed.

ShahFluffers wrote:
Such a person could be...
- an anti-pirate.
- went out to low-sec for a bit of PvP and nothing more.
- someone who was tricked into (or was accidentally) doing something stupid.

"Anti-Pirate": Risk of the job.
"Went to low sec for PvP and nothing more"... (I'd expect a bounty just for winning, or scratching someones paint.)
"someone who was tricked into (or was accidentally) doing something stupid": I don't support catering to stupidity.

Deny Pirates the Use of Implants
Svarii
Acclimatization
#8 - 2013-05-30 04:11:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Svarii
ShahFluffers wrote:

Who is good and who is bad are purely relative concepts. What you consider bad others don't, and vice versa. Who knows... maybe those people who are getting 100k bounties in those channels really are making someone mad.

Get in a ship and attack them or hire a mercenary. What about the MERCS?

ShahFluffers wrote:

A good RL example:
Some time ago a Pakistani official placed a $100,000 bounty on a "filmmaker" (please... he was an amateur at best) over a tasteless/inflamatory/controversial film.
The filmmaker had done anything wrong from a legal standpoint... all he did was create something perceived as an incredible insult to many, many people the world over.

Good counterpoint. To simulate this real world example in game. Such a bounty should require being placed at CEO/Alliance Leader Level Using the funds of the entity, not the wallet of the character.

ShahFluffers wrote:
How would this allow players who have committed "legal" crimes to have bounties placed on them?

There are no 'legal crimes' (oxymoron) +90% of the time, any "legal crime" as you say, preformed against you is 100% of the time "Your Fault" for allowing it to happen. (Do I have to say Merc Corp again?)

ShahFluffers wrote:
Teach them and they shall no longer be afraid.

It's hard to teach when they can't ask a question in a help channel without being bountied by a troll.

Deny Pirates the Use of Implants
mechtech
Ice Liberation Army
#9 - 2013-05-30 04:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: mechtech
Svarii wrote:
mechtech wrote:
You are making assumption that bounties are only used to catch pirates who actively go out and kill non-war targets in high/low sec space.

Incorrect. I argue that a 'bounty hunter' is "One who pursues a criminal or fugitive for whom a reward is offered." Thus inferring that a 'bounty' should be limited to 'criminal or fugitives'


Well that's simply not the case according to CCP. CCP specifically removed the sec status limit with Retribution. It wasn't an oversight, it was mentioned in the dev blog announcing the feature. The is a feature for all of Eve to use as they see fit. If a criminal wants to place a bounty on their enemy's head, they have every right to do so.

Bounties are so much more than criminal hunting. They're actually a large part of the new mercenary system. Instead of paying mercs per kill through a 3rd party KB system, it's easier now to just put a corp wide/alliance wide bounty on who you want targeted, and then pay them on a per contract basis if you want them to go above and beyond ganking work.

If you actually took a look at the merc ecosystem, you would find that the new bounty system has been a godsend to mercenary work, in large part because of the freeform nature of the bounty system.

Sec status is far too limiting an indicator to attach to a feature as useful as the overhauled bounty system. It's very useful for 0.0, where actions aren't tied to arbitrary numbers, but to reputation and cold hard losses.

The bounty system is a tool for players to do with as they see fit. This is simply how CCP designs Eve.

Look, if you want to only apply bounties to high sec status players, that's great, use the feature your way. I, on the other hand, may want to use the feature in an entirely different way. That's the beauty of Eve.

Here is the opening line from the Retribution page: "The immortal elite of the EVE universe live by a unique set of laws. It is not uncommon for some to find the decisions of the law lacking in appropriate justice. "
Serpico Lucifiero
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-05-30 05:05:34 UTC
I agree with the OP, in that the current Bounty system can and is being abused. Though I can see its utility when one wishes to somewhat settle the score.

The only way to make it fair and limit the abuse is to give players the ability to work off to cancel the Bounty placed on them.

Perhaps with missions or working up faction favors. Maybe having a higher security level could allow a player to work off bounties easier. Maybe bounties could be paid off to NPC's or a percentage of it reduced based on security level. Maybe there can be a court system introduced where you can appeal the bounties place on you, or turn yourself in to Concord. I don't know.

But to make the Bounty system fair and limit abuse, the player should be able to "work" it off, lawful or criminal alike.
Svarii
Acclimatization
#11 - 2013-05-30 05:08:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Svarii
mechtech wrote:
Svarii wrote:
mechtech wrote:
You are making assumption that bounties are only used to catch pirates who actively go out and kill non-war targets in high/low sec space.

Incorrect. I argue that a 'bounty hunter' is "One who pursues a criminal or fugitive for whom a reward is offered." Thus inferring that a 'bounty' should be limited to 'criminal or fugitives'


Well that's simply not the case according to CCP. CCP specifically removed the sec status limit with Retribution. It wasn't an oversight, it was mentioned in the dev blog announcing the feature. The is a feature for all of Eve to use as they see fit. If a criminal wants to place a bounty on their enemy's head, they have every right to do so.


Mentioning the security status was only a secondary suggestion, additionally, with the new statuses, CONCORD & Security status, that is coming; There must be a middle ground.

It is impossible for a single player to account for all possibilities. Hence this thread.
Would this be better? (Nothing to do with Sec status)

Simple Fix:
Player must have active Criminal and/or suspect flag to be bountied

Deny Pirates the Use of Implants
Serpico Lucifiero
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-05-30 05:22:29 UTC
Or there could be a formula based on the player's security level and the amount of bounties placed, how often the player gets a bounty placed on them and ranking that will calculate a "decay rate" or expiration. For example someone who gets a bounty for 100,000 and manages to avoid bounties for a while could see their bounty disappear. But, for those that make the top ten most wanted it would take perhaps months of "good behavior" for their bounty to disappear.

There could be any number of ways. But as it is now, that Wanted banner seem an indelible mark that will not go away, especially if the person has a low bounty on them, because who is going to collect on a low bounty?
Svarii
Acclimatization
#13 - 2013-05-30 05:29:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Svarii
Serpico Lucifiero wrote:
Or there could be a formula based on the player's security level and the amount of bounties placed, how often the player gets a bounty placed on them and ranking that will calculate a "decay rate" or expiration. For example someone who gets a bounty for 100,000 and manages to avoid bounties for a while could see their bounty disappear. But, for those that make the top ten most wanted it would take perhaps months of "good behavior" for their bounty to disappear.

There could be any number of ways. But as it is now, that Wanted banner seem an indelible mark that will not go away, especially if the person has a low bounty on them, because who is going to collect on a low bounty?



A formula is an excellent idea. But rather than suggesting one, I'll leave that for whomever our awesome CCP math guru is to formulate.

Deny Pirates the Use of Implants
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#14 - 2013-05-30 10:03:45 UTC
Sajuuk Brutor wrote:
Bounties put on anyone is fine, they usually lose the 100k bounty when they lose a frig. Its how the top bounties are never collected...
How about we add an expiration on the bounties so they reverse back 90% to the person who set the bounty after a certain timeframe? So if they want to be the most wanted they have to cause the most trouble within the last 60 days or so.

(I mentioned this to market hub trolls that are proud of their bounty and they absolutely hated the idea.)


I too like my bounty and do not want it to disperse.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#15 - 2013-05-30 10:04:58 UTC
Svarii wrote:
mechtech wrote:
Svarii wrote:
mechtech wrote:
You are making assumption that bounties are only used to catch pirates who actively go out and kill non-war targets in high/low sec space.

Incorrect. I argue that a 'bounty hunter' is "One who pursues a criminal or fugitive for whom a reward is offered." Thus inferring that a 'bounty' should be limited to 'criminal or fugitives'


Well that's simply not the case according to CCP. CCP specifically removed the sec status limit with Retribution. It wasn't an oversight, it was mentioned in the dev blog announcing the feature. The is a feature for all of Eve to use as they see fit. If a criminal wants to place a bounty on their enemy's head, they have every right to do so.


Mentioning the security status was only a secondary suggestion, additionally, with the new statuses, CONCORD & Security status, that is coming; There must be a middle ground.

It is impossible for a single player to account for all possibilities. Hence this thread.
Would this be better? (Nothing to do with Sec status)

Simple Fix:
Player must have active Criminal and/or suspect flag to be bountied


So if I join your corp and loot your corp assets, and maybe awox your deadspace mission ship on the way out, you shouldn't be able to bounty me?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Laura Dexx
Now Look What You've Made Me Do
#16 - 2013-05-30 11:20:04 UTC
You seem to be mistaking EVE with Hello Kitty Island Adventure.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#17 - 2013-05-30 14:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Svarii wrote:
This allows players to camp out in NPC corp and help channels and place bounties on ANYONE for ANY or NO REASON at all.
Why is the 100K bounty on anyone, an issue? Just because you see no merit or reason for the bounty, doesn't mean it shouldn't have been placed. It's not your place or mine, to dictate the validity or not of a placed bounty.

Svarii wrote:
One of my favorite parts about this game has been how it strives to be 'real'. EVE IS REAL! And in the real world, you can't just place a bounty on ANY law abiding citizen whenever you feel like it.
But you can and it is done. But bringing real life comparisons into the argument, are always set to fail. Best not.

Svarii wrote:
Bounties for me used to be one of the simplest way (other than an active scam in progress) to spot a player who may be less than honest or a tad bit shady. The current mechanics make bounties a pathetic joke where half the universe is flying around with a 100K bounty on them, Their usefullness has been nearly negated for highsec players, while adding a way for station dwellers to grief, and it is targeted at players who are new, npc corp, or just those who dare to speak in an open channel. Not primarily a person who has wronged you, or another.

Additionally. This is detracting from the meanining of the WANTED status that used to be a badge of accomplishment for player pirates.
The wanted sign is and always has been an indicator that another player wanted someone. The only change, is the removal of the unrelated NPC standing restriction. Also pilots of high standing in the old system, could have wanted signs and many of my friends did just that.

Svarii wrote:
Simple Fix?
Player must have Criminal and/or suspect flag to be bountied if they have a positive security status.

Advanced Fix?
In addition to the simple fix suggested. The minimum bounty amount could be based on the characters security status. Higher security status = higher min bounty (and the player must be activley flagged as comitting an illegal act).
NPC standing have no place in a player led standings system. It's also irrelevant whether the game marks they are criminal or not, the point about the system is that a player has deemed them wanted. End of.

Svarii wrote:
My primary concern is for individual pilots (especially the new players).

Final thought regarding corporation / alliance level bounties. In addition to the bounty, a kill right from a member might be good idea to include in the cost.

ADDITION: After getting some feedback ingame, players primary concern with this is not being able to bounty scammers. As much as we all love to hate them, technically, a scam is not an aggressive act, and no one made you click accept. Most non-pirate scammer use toons anways and are easily spotted.

Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/1fb1et/help_fix_bounty_mechanics/
When the bounty system was first released, there was the inevitable rush to hand them out. This rush inevitably also died.

The bounty system will evolve over time. CCP have said they wish to improve upon this change. But the change is welcome and I should be able to bounty ANYONE I want, for WHATEVER reason I want.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#18 - 2013-05-30 14:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Serpico Lucifiero wrote:
I agree with the OP, in that the current Bounty system can and is being abused. Though I can see its utility when one wishes to somewhat settle the score.

The only way to make it fair and limit the abuse is to give players the ability to work off to cancel the Bounty placed on them.

Perhaps with missions or working up faction favors. Maybe having a higher security level could allow a player to work off bounties easier. Maybe bounties could be paid off to NPC's or a percentage of it reduced based on security level. Maybe there can be a court system introduced where you can appeal the bounties place on you, or turn yourself in to Concord. I don't know.

But to make the Bounty system fair and limit abuse, the player should be able to "work" it off, lawful or criminal alike.

How is it being abused exactly?

Also there is already a way to remove or work off the bounty, but it will cost you.

Again, this is NOT about NPCs, it's a player led mechanic.

Serpico Lucifiero wrote:
Or there could be a formula based on the player's security level and the amount of bounties placed, how often the player gets a bounty placed on them and ranking that will calculate a "decay rate" or expiration. For example someone who gets a bounty for 100,000 and manages to avoid bounties for a while could see their bounty disappear. But, for those that make the top ten most wanted it would take perhaps months of "good behavior" for their bounty to disappear.

There could be any number of ways. But as it is now, that Wanted banner seem an indelible mark that will not go away, especially if the person has a low bounty on them, because who is going to collect on a low bounty?
No decay rate. You want it removed, then do so. But it will cost.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-05-30 17:56:25 UTC
As far as I can see the Bounty system is working pretty well the way that it was intended. Yes there was the initial flurry of counties and some still give them as a joke (Malcanis, Flow Nelg grrr)

Earn them off? No

Decay? No

Get blown up and they slowly go away? Working as intended.

Never get blown up? Then it is just a label of no significance to you, ignore and move on

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Svarii
Acclimatization
#20 - 2013-05-30 18:05:41 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

I too like my bounty and do not want it to disperse.

I liked my Snowball Launcher.


Deny Pirates the Use of Implants
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