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Post Odyssey Phoenix?
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Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-05-31 09:57:37 UTC
I find it amusing how people always use the loki as the reference for good webs. It's not, it blows at it. Vigilant/ashimmu webs or go home. One typical 3 web vigilant is the equivalent of 3 loki's, it's that good in webbing stuff down.
Scoto Timta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-05-31 13:30:34 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
I find it amusing how people always use the loki as the reference for good webs. It's not, it blows at it. Vigilant/ashimmu webs or go home. One typical 3 web vigilant is the equivalent of 3 loki's, it's that good in webbing stuff down.

I guess it comes down to a question of range vs slow-down. For simplicity assume all skills at 5, no boosting and no heating:

Vigilant gets 50% bonus to web amount. Fed navy webs reach out to 14km and reduce speed by 90% (60% base plus the 50% bonus, if my math is right). If I am applying the bonus incorrectly, it would still be an 80% speed reduction.

Loki with Immobility Drivers subsystem at 5 gets 150% bonus to web range. Fed Navy webs reach out to 35km and reduce speed by 60%. Two of those webs will do similar speed reduction to one web from Vigilant, with much greater effective range.

In actual practice, the boosted web range of the Loki is actually up there close to 50 (I don't remember exact range). Considering the Sleepers start out there at about 45km from the warp-in, running the Loki is easy and efficient. Orbit the carrier at 500 and web the Sleepers in tagged order. Even with boosting, seems to me that the Vigilant is gonna have to "chase" in order to apply its webs.

If I have something wrong, correct me.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2013-05-31 13:35:59 UTC
You are correct, Vigilant's slow effect is 90%. Vigilant doesn't have to chase as the trick is to simply prewarp to the sites and make the bookmark for your dreads fleet right away, which also has the advantage of giving the dreads the optimal location to start shooting from, thus increasing completion time that way as well. When stuff spawns within 20km off of your vigilant and the dreads, it's quite different than it is to wait around for loki webs to have effect and to shoot outside your optimals and as such inflict less actual damage.

You are however incorrect in the loki web efficiency, it takes 4 loki webs to reach a slowing effect of 88%, which still falls 2% short of the vigilant (insignificant, but the amount of webs required to do this is significant).
Scoto Timta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-05-31 14:32:39 UTC
Thanks for the clarification on warp-in. I agree that it would make a significant difference and changes the value of the range.
3 Loki webs gives an 86% speed reduction, which I would still consider functional similar to the 1 Vigilant web. And even just the 79% reduction from two is pretty close to the 90%, I think. But I haven't done any testing to see if an additional 11% reduction in the Sleeper speed would produce any real-world effect. The escalation Sleepers are usually dead well before they reach "terminal" webbed velocity anyway, so I suspect I wouldn't see a whole lot of difference.
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-05-31 14:55:12 UTC
Scoto Timta wrote:
Thanks for the clarification on warp-in. I agree that it would make a significant difference and changes the value of the range.
3 Loki webs gives an 86% speed reduction, which I would still consider functional similar to the 1 Vigilant web. And even just the 79% reduction from two is pretty close to the 90%, I think. But I haven't done any testing to see if an additional 11% reduction in the Sleeper speed would produce any real-world effect. The escalation Sleepers are usually dead well before they reach "terminal" webbed velocity anyway, so I suspect I wouldn't see a whole lot of difference.


Agreed on that, just making the comparison on how many webs it takes to get to the same amount of speed reduction. Even so, a single vigilant in escalation fit has 3 of those webs, and as such it can slow down all 3 targets for a dread, add in another one and it can do the same for the other dread. It's a huge difference to do this with just 2 boats compared to the 6 lokis that it would take to do the same otherwise. One that more than makes up for the minute or so that it takes to create that warpin when the site is first being done, the following days that's already there so it makes it even less of an issue.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-05-31 20:06:44 UTC
Thanks for the feedback on the loki vs the vigilant guys. I have two more questions. 1) how would a huggin/rapier do? and 2) Is it feasible to shield tank any of said ships; most of my group shield tanks.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
Oxandrolone
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-05-31 21:07:27 UTC
i was going to take this thread seriously but then i realised you posted the fit in a format that cant be imported into eft

even without siege bonus the explosion velocity of siege missiles is 29 m/s and thats much slower than they need to go to hit them with a tracking dread.

also ridiculously slow missile flight time means you will waste volly's shotting at ships that will already be dead when the previous volly hits them so you either got to micro-manage your volly's (not an option when you are triple boxing for example) or accept less damage

short answer: its now possible but much worse than a tracking dread and the skills are not transferable as tracking dread skills
Borlag Crendraven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-05-31 21:34:50 UTC
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Thanks for the feedback on the loki vs the vigilant guys. I have two more questions. 1) how would a huggin/rapier do? and 2) Is it feasible to shield tank any of said ships; most of my group shield tanks.


Squishy in comparison to the beforementioned two, only advantage they have is that their webs can reach even further. For shield stuff, I'd stick with the loki and just bring more of them.
Vassal Zeren
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-05-31 22:10:14 UTC
Borlag Crendraven wrote:
Vassal Zeren wrote:
Thanks for the feedback on the loki vs the vigilant guys. I have two more questions. 1) how would a huggin/rapier do? and 2) Is it feasible to shield tank any of said ships; most of my group shield tanks.


Squishy in comparison to the beforementioned two, only advantage they have is that their webs can reach even further. For shield stuff, I'd stick with the loki and just bring more of them.


Thanks again, I was leaning towards the loki anyways. Sounds good.

A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver.
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